Dumb question, why do I want a faster bullet?

Status
Not open for further replies.

eazyrider

Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
303
Location
Houston, TX
I read this site....a lot. I see people debating faster bullets. I read alot of things like yeah the ".204 is faster than the .223 but....." I googled but didn't find much. I get that a faster bullet has a flatter trajectory but what else is there? To me all bullets are fast. I never put mch thought into the speed of these things. Hell if it hits what I aim at it was always good enough for me. I mean if speed was everything then why have the "slower" bullets thrived?
 
Hi eazy,
I am going to avoid terminal ballistics i.e. what a bullet does when it hits a target, deer , rabbit etc. Thus, Kinetic energy quadruples when velocity is doubled.
Mathematically: Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass of the projectile X velocity squared.
It's the velocity "squared" that adds the energy.
Best,
Rob
 
You should tailor your caliber(s) to the specific shooting which pleases you.

If you want penetration, then you want a specific bullet, like FMJ or JRN, for example.

As to the "faster bullet", generally these have a somewhat flatter trajectory
than slower ones. Accuracy over longer distances is generally easier.

The "slower ones" are usually a larger cross section, or caliber, and pack more of a punch.

The slower, fatter .45ACP round has a history of being a great performer in military circles for short range stopping power,for instance.

Once you find the caliber and gun which matches your needs, you'll be using your most effective bullets in the most economical way.
 
It's all very confusing. I don't know what my optimal bullet is. Right now I am just killing cans. I have several calibers. Most were given to me but some I bought myself. I never gave much thought to speed or anything. I used to hunt whitetail and I used a .243 and it worked well. Between me and my brother that rifle has taken at least 20 deer with no problems. I currently do no hunt anything but paper and aluminum. Really not looking for what caliber best suits my needs now, just want to learn a little more about bullets. Every day it seems I learn something on this site. And everyday I get confused again. Put cost aside.

Let me summarize if I can. You want a faster bullet for more long range shots but it is not as necessary at short range? Do I have that right? If that is the case then let me ask why certain caliber, actually one caliber came to be a dominant sniper round, the .308. Is it the fastest in it's class? Why not a 06 or .338 or 30 carbine?


Damn bullets are confusing but fascinating.
 
i think he means the overall width of the projectile.

for example a .45 acp is much wider than a 9mm and is slower because of it.
 
Don't worry about it eazyrider, the critter won't be impressed by the speed of the bullet that just missed him. Accuracy is THE issue.
 
A faster bullet has less drop farther out.

Gravity affects the projectile the instant it leaves the barrel. If two otherwise identical projectiles were shot out of two identical barrels from the same place and at the same angle at the same instant, but at two different speeds, both projectiles would hit the ground at the same time. BUT the projectile fired at higher speed will travel farther.
So if you have a faster projectile, it will travel farther away from the gun before gravity pulls it down.

A lighter projectile can typically be fired faster than a heavier one of the same caliber. So most faster projectiles will be lighter.
 
After all that mess in your head gets untangled, THEN you have to start worrying about big words such as "sectional density" and "terminal ballistics".:neener:

And the anti's all seem to think all us hunters and gun owners are simple, uneducated, unrefined REDNECKS! (Ok I am a little on the crimson side in the neck :) )
 
allfouledup is right.

I've got a reloading book by Hornady which gives a lot of bullet specs.
I would recommend you pick up a reloading manual, it will give you a list of most
caliber specs and velocities. Reloaders also list additional ballistics on their websites.

IMO .243 is a fine caliber. You can certainly take a lot of game with it. Even with 75 grain bullets you can get 3500 FPS velocity. With a 58 grain bullet you can get 3900 FPS with a hot load. Relatively fast loads in anybody's book.

Sometimes specs aren't half as important as what just feels right and shoots well for you.

I know for a lot of my target shooting I use 22LR, it's cheap and accurate. What many hunters and guides do to sharpen their skills in the off-season is get a rifle in 22LR which is as similar to their rifle in the preferred caliber as they can get. They save money while practicing with the 22LR, and then use their larger rifle primarily to take game after a couple of trips to the range for " sighting in" early in the season.;)

BTW, Freedom fighter, I'm on the side of the rednecks and hillbillies. Most of them have more sense and brains than the entire of Washington DC combined.
 
Last edited:
If you think about it, having rifles of different calibers - each with a velocity and bullet weight suited to a particular game animal, habitat or style of hunting - is like playing with a full set of golf clubs.

Whatever rifle or golf club you use, it helps to know the trajectory you can get out of it.
 
It's the velocity "squared" that adds the energy

But then those old buffalo hunters shot a HUGE heavy bullet at a very slow velocity at ranges up to 500-600 yards and got really great penetration..........rainbow trajectory - yes..........but the energy wiped out those herds with ease
 
The ft/lbs formula for measuring kinetic energy is heavily slanted toward velocity. It's a good way to compare loads, but the load that generates more ft/lbs of kinetic energy may not always exhibit the greater terminal effect.

You have to look deeper into it than the muzzle velocity and ft/lbs listed on the side of a box of ammo.
 
...for example a .45 acp is much wider than a 9mm and is slower because of it.

That's not exactly right. .45ACP is slower than a 9mm Para, mostly because the powder charge is insufficient to push the great mass of the .45ACP at 9mm Para speeds. It doesn't have a lot to do with aerodynamics. For example, a .50BMG slug is wider, and MUCH faster, than either the 9mm Para or the .45ACP, in spite of being much heavier. This is because it uses a massive powder charge, and weapons firing it generally have enough barrel length (dwell) to fully harness the combustion.
 
Velocity helps with longer range shots on targets at unkonwn distance, because if you're off a little bit when you estimate range to target, a faster bullet with a flatter trajectory will not be as far off of your point of aim, and is therefore more forgiving.

One reason guys who hand-load talk about velocity is that for every rifle and bullet combination, there is a certain velocity that just seems to produce the best accuracy, for whatever reason. Hand-loaders often try several different powder charges, producing different velocities, to see which performs the best. Some folks also measure velocity so they can use ballistic charts/calculators to see how much bullet drop they can expect to get at different ranges.

Velocity can also cause a bullet to have greater wounding potential. For instance, the 5.56 military round is a .22 caliber bullet, but it leaves the barrel at well over 3000 feet per second, so it can produce some pretty nasty wounds at close range when it is still travelling fast. Velocity also helps with penetration.

On your question regarding why the .308 is the most common sniper round, I would just advise you not to read too much into which calibers governments and militaries pick for different applications. They make their decisions based on a whole lot of things other than which round actually provides for the best performance. There are a lot of politics, as well as practicalities involving commonality of calibers, etc. involved, and some of their decisions are rather stupid, biased, and short-sighted. For instance, the .308 (or 7.62x51 as it is known to the military) was adopted in the 1950s because the military wanted a caliber that would fit in a shorter action than their old .30-06, but they wanted the same trajectory with the same caliber and a similar weight bullet so the military would not have to change it's training regimen for long-distance marksmanship, and because the top brass was somewhat stuck on .30 caliber, for nostalgic reasons or whatnot. They did this knowing that there were better choices out there... it has been known since the early part of the last century that a bullet between 6.5mm and 7mm traveling at 2800-3200 fps produces an ideal trajectory, ballistic coefficient, recoil, and wounding potential for human-sized targets, and militaries world-wide have tried to adopt such a round multiple times, but it always gets killed because of various political reasons.

Once a government adopts a certain round, they tend to want to keep it, because they already have stockpiles of ammo, it is expensive to buy new firearms in different calibers, and it may involve different training, etc... and then private consumers follow suit, because they like to have a rifle in a common caliber, for reasons of economy. So the situation is that the cheapest and most common rounds are usually not the very most ideal for their intended purpose, but people use them anyway because they are cheap and common. Witness the .223, .308, 7.62x39, etc. etc.
 
Last edited:
the .308. Is it the fastest in it's class? Why not a 06 or .338 or 30 carbine?
No, it is not the fastest.
But there are three primary reasons why it was/is used.

First, the 30-06, (1903 Springfield, BAR, M-1 Garand, .30 Browning MG) and then later the 7.62 NATO/308 Win (M-14, M-60 MG, & M240) were/are standard issue small arms calibers for all the rifles and machinguns used by all the services.

Second, more accuracy development work was done on these calibers by the military AMU marksmanship teams then any other caliber except the current 5.56 NATO.
Because they were required to use the standard service rifle in competition against other military teams. For a very long time, snipers were the same AMU guys shooting highest level competition stateside.

Third, issuing a non-standard caliber sniper rifle renders it useless once the odd caliber ammo for it is used up.

So by default, the .308 was and still is used as the primary sniper rifle round, even though there are other commercial calibers that might offer better very long range performance.

rc
 
Last edited:
Now tell him about B.C. and twist rate. Then heavy for caliber lower velocity rounds and throw in wind drift while you're at it. Eazy, is your head spinning yet?

Simply remember that the rifle you choose with it's specific combinations will lend itself to a narrower selection of loadings than most people think. It is possible to experience good accuracy from a less than ideal load but it's much easier to know what the goal is before choosing a tool to attain results.

Much like the golf example above, two golfers may choose the sand wedge to get out of the trap but the shape of the head and grooves and the angle may be completely different. Same with the ball, it's dimples, cover and core material, etc. Then again, some guys just play their slice...
 
So it will ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... shrapnelize down range and take out more threats.
I can't believe I just read this. If you don't know, or have gotten information via Hollywood it is best to keep silent.
 
Is there a good book to read (or small number of books) on ballistics? I know I could just look at amazon, but there A) doesn't seem to be much of a selection and B) can't hurt to see if there is one particular author that seems to be good.

FYI, I love this book on motorcycle dynamics, it gets into math, but with some study, makes sense with some knowledge of mathematics. Something along those lines?
 
I can't believe I just read this. If you don't know, or have gotten information via Hollywood it is best to keep silent.

Been noticing a lot of that lately - like suggestions that a .44 magnum would be a good choice for a first handgun. Thank goodness there still a few of the old geezers around here to keep people on somewhat straight path.
 
The latest edition of "Handloaders Digest" would be a VERY good place to start. It will not only give you some very interesting knowledge on ballistics, it will also give you some good updated reload information. Many years ago, my speer manual gave me a wonderful start into the world of ballistics. A lot of reloading manuals will preface each cartridge with a history of that cartridge which is very interesting reading as well.
 
Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Bryan Litz.

For true accuracy you'll need to become a very disciplined reloader among other things and while lots of guys reload Joyce Hornady once compared a sizable sampling of others' handiwork vs. his factory ammo and found that approximately 85% could not out perform the factory loads.

Your best friend in all things firearms related is seldom a book however, it's the one person you can dig out of the woodwork to show you how it's done right. Could be a guy at work or the old guy at the gun store that doesn't shoot anymore (but still knows how). I was blessed with help from many fellow shooters and cursed with a shortness of talent to apply what I may have learned. That and a lack of funds to compensate for skill by purchasing every advantage I can get;-).
 
You got me to go over to my book case, and pull out my two most recently purchased, yet unopened books, Lyman Reloading Handbook, and Modern Reloading second edition by Richard Lee.

Modern Reloading has more details, but mostly related to safety. I guess what I'm looking for is something more about bullet trajectory.

Maybe something on long-range shooting? (If I get too far off topic, I think I have enough questions to start another thread)

::EDIT:: Sat on this too long before posting, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Bryan Litz" looks pretty darn good. Added to my Amazon cart.
 
It is complicated but interesting to study. I read a lot on here but some of the debates are so esoteric that I cannot follow. Still though I am thankful for the knowledge.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top