Duty to Inform the LEO if Carrying on Official Contact

[armoredman]

I would rather work where I am than drive taxis - dangerous job.

Just curious, what city in AZ was that?

Casa Grande.

 

[shafter]

A common situation is that a car will be registered in the names of both the husband and wife. Either one might be the driver. That might lead to a discrepancy, when the driver is not the one with the gun carry license. Usually that would not be a problem, but under just the right circumstances, it might be.

Yes that's correct.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have had various responses from duty to inform, some weirdish.

One officer stopped me for speeding (which I was) and walked up and gave his spiel to which I presented my TDL, CHL, and proof of insurance and he chewed me out for not informing him sooner that I was carrying. Literally, less than 10 seconds after walking up to my window, him talking the entire time, and I didn't inform him fast enough.

I have shared this one about informing DPS troopers and the lead trooper asked where I was carrying and decided to question me further as to WHY I needed to carry two guns. At the time, his partner was behind the C pillar of my car, crouched, with his hand on his gun. I explained to the trooper at my window that I carried two guns because I don't have a partner standing behind the C pillar of my car with his hand on his gun like "you do." He immediately looked to his partner, excused himself, and had a chat with his partner that never approached my car again.

I was stopped in the middle of the night on my way to College Station by a trooper, informed him, and he disarmed me. After all was said and done, he had me pop my trunk he placed my pistol in the back. He then informed me that I could retrieve it from the back once he was out of sight.

In Spiro, OK, I was stopped for speeding and I apparently was, but unintentionally for a change. Truth was, and what I told the officer, was that I was lost and I was very definitely lost (pre GPS) and he informed as much based on the neighborhood I was in. There had been construction and I apparently missed one of the detour rerouting signs. At the time, I had a big paper map spread out in my car and no doubt, the whole traveler vibe. Anyway, I informed him I was armed (which I did not know was OK law until reading SunnySlopes' post above). He asked where, and then wanted to disarm me, took my belt gun, but could not extract the pistol from my rear pocket without taking me out of the car which he didn't want to do and finally decided to have me present it to him (in the holster). Five minutes later, he gave me back my guns, wrote me a warning for the speeding, and led me back to the highway (which was very much appreciated).

Nowadays, the general consensus (based on my interactions usually in the middle of the night with Texas officers) is that "Yeah, everybody in Texas has a a gun. Just leave it where it is. Don't touch it, and we will be fine." Sometimes they ask where it is, sometimes not.

 

[shafter]

I've never understood officers that request people to disarm themselves during a simple stop. I think the officer is setting themselves up for trouble if they end up getting in a shooting because once you give someone permission to touch their firearm at what point are you justified in shooting?

If the gun is holstered I'll give clear instructions for the gun to remain holstered and to not touch it. If it's a hunter with a long gun I'll request that they simply lean it against the nearest tree or safe object but I may not even do that depending on the type of encounter. If it's an uncased firearm in a vehicle I'll move the person instead of the gun by asking the occupants to exit the car if I feel necessary.

Gun handling should be kept to a minimum with clear instructions to avoid misunderstandings. If I have to shoot someone I want it to be after giving clear instructions not to touch the gun, not after telling them to manipulate it somehow.

 

[Bcwitt]

The way I understood it, you have to tell the officer when asked. You do not have to until then. I think thats right. (PA)

 

[scaatylobo]

A compilation among many states. Some require only contact ,some only if asked some Hybrids. Here is the latest update from August, 2023, to try to straighten it out:

www.handgunlaw.us

I wil add a poll to see how THR feels about this issue. Its important to know the facts as we travel around the USA.

In synopsis it seems 10 states and DC require disclosing.

As a retired LEO [ yes,I am not alone on here ] I do so as a note whenever I am stopped.

I want it to be clear that if they see a gun,its LEGAL.

And I will not draw my gun if asked,that is a HUGE no ,no .

I need CAUSE to draw a weapon when not in my home or on a range.

So far this has not caused any issues and all I got was a thanks for the heads up.

 

[doubleh]

Not in NM. Any vehicle, even a motor cycle, is seen as extension of your home and guns are OK any where in them, We also have always had open carry. Well, until recently for residents of Bernillo County.

A deputy sheriff that I was friends with gave me a tip long ago. It was if you had a gun in plain sight and you were stopped and gave the cop a hard time he/she (she being moot at that period in time) could confiscate the gun and the bad part was that it didn't have to be returned. No problem for me as I was smart enough to just be polite to avoid any additional charge added because of a POed cop. A speeding or loud pipes ticket was bad enough without anything else added. Yeah, I got a few of those in my single years.

 

[bubbaturbo]

Oklahoma. We have duty to inform. I've been pulled over for speeding. By the time the police officer walks up to the car I have my right hand on top of the steering wheel in plain view. My left hand is sticking out of the window holding my driver's license and CCL. Then I tell them I have a sidearm OWB on my left side.

The first time, the police officer took both licenses, looked at the CCL, handed it back and asked what kind of gun I had. I told him a Sig Sauer P239. He got all excited and started talking about his Sig collection. And I got all excited and told him about my Sig collection. He gave me a warning and we both went our way.

The second time (fairly recent), the police officer took both licenses, looked at the CCL, thanked me and handed the CCL back. He went to his cruiser, ran the check, came back and gave me a warning. Then he pointed to my (new F-150 pickup) and said, "That's my favorite color." (It's a new color: "Area 51 blue.") And we talked about trucks. His wife wants a Bronco in that color. He wished me a good day and I said, "Be safe", and we went our respective ways.

It's no big deal in OK. Maybe if you're amped up on crack it might be a big deal. But otherwise....

Here in OK I don't think you have to inform unless asked.

 

[bubbaturbo]

I don't know how to say this gently, so take it however and it is what it is. It seems to me, just by the tone of stuff like this, that a lot of people seem to be OK with being subservient to the government and their minions. This isnt how things are supposed to be, and why are you dealing with them with a "hat in your hands" attitude?

This isnt the third grade, and you dont have to show your hall pass to everyone on your way to take a leak. But that seems to be the mentality with a lot, if not most people. I get the impression a lot of times, that people like to show off things like a carry permit, because it shows (in my best George Carlin voice) they are special and they follow the rules.

Oh, look, Im a good little boy, I have my pass, or permission to do this or that. You need their permission to do what is supposed to be a right? Seriously? This is the major problem these days, and in all directions, and exactly where the powers that be want the populace to be, whipped, fearful, under their control, and afraid to do anything, without asking their permission first.

Old Dog is right, in a traffic stop, you dont have to give them anything other than whats required for the stop. And then ****. They arent there to be your buddy and aren't concerned with your well being, and anything they ask you is to get you to give them any reason to take things further, if thats what they want. By all means, be reasonably pleasant and courteous, but dont expect any favors or think your "hall pass" is going to get you any favors. Do your job, write the damn ticket, and let me be on my way.

I get so damned aggravated anymore when I see all this silly crap going on and people thinking its OK that "we, the people" arent the top of the food chain, and that the people who supposedly work for us, are somehow in charge of us now.

I kinda agree with some of this. Threads about interactions with the police during a traffic stop always seem to have some unseemly obsequious groveling, especially the "phraseology" of what to say to the police. I've never had anything but adult conversations in my very few interactions with an officer.
Also, although not related to police interactions, I have noticed, at least in other forums, the same groveling attitude when the discussion is about "outlaw bikers". I'm no tough guy but why anybody has anything but contempt for biker gangs, or any gangs for that matter, is beyond me.

 

[crstrode]

Why all the focus on cars and plates and driver's licenses? A large percentage of all of contacts with law enforcement do not involve a motor vehicle, nor is a driver's license ever part of the equation.

 

[shafter]

Why all the focus on cars and plates and driver's licenses? A large percentage of all of contacts with law enforcement do not involve a motor vehicle, nor is a driver's license ever part of the equation.

Cops usually ask for ID when they speak to people so they can document who they spoke to and check for warrants. Whether the person is legally obligated to provide ID in a particular situation is another discussion beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[trackskippy]

I would think the legality of things would be important, if even actually necessary. Thats sort of the whole point of knowing your rights, and what the law allows the police, or whoever to even ask. But of course, they can ask and if youre dumb enough to pony up......

Its well known and documented that the cops lie to us (and are allowed to lie to us) to get us to give up what they want to get from us, and its important to know what your rights are and to take full advantage of them. Just because they say its so, doesnt mean it is. But if you dont know your rights....

And just being stopped anywhere, you still dont have to ID, unless they have a reason to believe you have, or are about to commit a crime and have to articulate that, and specifically what that is. Otherwise, you dont have to tell them a thing or answer any of their questions. And if youre smart, beyond what you are obligated to, which is limited at best, you dont.

The whole game here is to get you to give up your rights and do what they say and want. Just the fact they stopped you and want to question you, especially if you haven't done anything to warrant it, should be a big red flag.

 

[SunnySlopes]

Here in OK I don't think you have to inform unless asked.

Good to know. I'll continue to give them both my DL and my CCL because, like having both my hands visible when they approach the vehicle, it makes their job easier by lessening tension.

Then again, I don't get pulled over that often. Five times in 25 years, maybe. And I've yet to get anything but a warning in that time frame. So, hopefully this discussion is a moot point.

Now, when I was in high school in my 396 Impala with Julie D sitting so close to me she was almost in my lap....different story.

 

[wayneinFL]

I've never understood officers that request people to disarm themselves during a simple stop. I think the officer is setting themselves up for trouble if they end up getting in a shooting because once you give someone permission to touch their firearm at what point are you justified in shooting?

If the gun is holstered I'll give clear instructions for the gun to remain holstered and to not touch it. If it's a hunter with a long gun I'll request that they simply lean it against the nearest tree or safe object but I may not even do that depending on the type of encounter. If it's an uncased firearm in a vehicle I'll move the person instead of the gun by asking the occupants to exit the car if I feel necessary.

Gun handling should be kept to a minimum with clear instructions to avoid misunderstandings. If I have to shoot someone I want it to be after giving clear instructions not to touch the gun, not after telling them to manipulate it somehow.

That's a very good point- better off not to have someone handle their gun when you have then pulled over for a traffic stop.

I don't know that it's a good idea for an officer to to take the gun on a traffic stop either. What's the point unless you think the guy is dangerous? And if the guy is dangerous, are you going to leave him in a car and just take the gun he told you about? He has a car and God-knows-what-else inside the car.

I notified in Georgia on a traffic stop. I was driving home from Richmond, VA in a rental car because the airports were shut down for snow. When I got out of snow and ice, I put my foot on the gas and made up some time. I got pulled over by a city cop sitting in the dark on the interstate.

I notified the cop I was carrying and he disarmed me. Super nice guy, but he scared me a little. I had a Glock 27 in a pocket holster and he had a hard time fumbling around to try to get it out. He had a hard time pulling the Teflon coated slide and had the muzzle pointed at his abdomen while he was clearing it. Again, he was a super nice guy, very polite, very understanding, and he let me off with a warning.

I almost would have rather just handed him my license and rental contract, even if I had to pay the ticket I deserved.

 

[shafter]

That's a very good point- better off not to have someone handle their gun when you have then pulled over for a traffic stop.

I don't know that it's a good idea for an officer to to take the gun on a traffic stop either. What's the point unless you think the guy is dangerous? And if the guy is dangerous, are you going to leave him in a car and just take the gun he told you about? He has a car and God-knows-what-else inside the car.

I notified in Georgia on a traffic stop. I was driving home from Richmond, VA in a rental car because the airports were shut down for snow. When I got out of snow and ice, I put my foot on the gas and made up some time. I got pulled over by a city cop sitting in the dark on the interstate.

I notified the cop I was carrying and he disarmed me. Super nice guy, but he scared me a little. I had a Glock 27 in a pocket holster and he had a hard time fumbling around to try to get it out. He had a hard time pulling the Teflon coated slide and had the muzzle pointed at his abdomen while he was clearing it. Again, he was a super nice guy, very polite, very understanding, and he let me off with a warning.

I almost would have rather just handed him my license and rental contract, even if I had to pay the ticket I deserved.

Makes no sense from a tactics standpoint. The cop will never realize it but he did nothing to make himself safer in that interaction.

 

[The Night Rider]

Every time this discussion comes up I tried to post this picture. This is my wallet. I bought it at REI and I think it's by Pac Safe.

The primary reason that I bought it is because as soon as I take my keys out of the ignition my wallet is in my hand. I don't have to go digging around in my pocket right next to my gun to get my driver's license and all that out.

It makes life a lot simpler

 

[Old Dog]

I notified the cop I was carrying and he disarmed me. Super nice guy, but he scared me a little. I had a Glock 27 in a pocket holster and he had a hard time fumbling around to try to get it out. He had a hard time pulling the Teflon coated slide and had the muzzle pointed at his abdomen while he was clearing it. Again, he was a super nice guy, very polite, very understanding, and he let me off with a warning.

He might have been a nice guy, polite and all, but that's just pretty stupid. I've never worked anywhere where disarming someone during a stop for a traffic violation with no other circumstances involved would even be considered.

Most agencies don't include training for officers on how to clear the myriad types and actions of firearms out there. Typically that's stuff just learned OJT, and some officers have no familiarity with handguns (or long guns) other than their issue weapons. Years back I backed up a unit for another agency where the officer had cause to search the car (presence of illegal drugs) and the guy found, of all things, a loaded clone of a Colt SAA. After fiddling with it for several minutes on the hood of his unit, he looked up and said, "Hey, uh, does anyone here know who to unload this thing?" Especially when the adrenaline is flowing (usually after a pursuit ends), everyone is shaky and I've seen some near bad stuff happening when weapons are being handled.

The larger issue, as I see it, is that there's just too much bad stuff happening out in the world in today's climate. Everyone is nervous, road rage is out of control, and the concept of civility in public places is long gone.

In '09, up here we had four Lakewood PD officers shot and killed by one man while they were sitting in a Forza coffee shop. Just a month before, a Seattle officer was shot and killed by one man as he sat in his patrol car parked on the street. Then a month later, two of our county deputies were shot, one died while at the door of a house to which they were responding to a call. A couple years later, one of our WSP troopers was shot in the face during a routine traffic stop on a state highway -- the POS who killed him told his female passenger to recline her seat back, and when the trooper came up to the passenger side window, the guy who'd just been released from state prison a couple weeks earlier, reached across her and shot the trooper. All of these incidents, unprovoked, came out of nowhere and quite suddenly.

There are a few issues surrounding this whole duty to notify business. While you might be exercising your right to bear arms, if you're stopped because you may have committed a traffic violation, this is happening while you are exercising a privilege -- that of traveling on a public roadway, and with that, comes the implied consent that you understand all the rules and regulations associated with this privilege. If there's anything a citizen can do to not make an encounter, unwanted or not, with law enforcement, turn into a tense confrontation, why would you not do it? The guy or gal you're dealing with probably carries around as much, or more, baggage than you and is also just another human being who wants to get home to his/her family at the end of the shift. At the end of the day, it's just an annoying, unwanted intrusion into your life that wastes a few minutes (or maybe 15) of your valuable time (and hopefully doesn't get you a stiff fine). Law enforcement officers would much rather be doing other things than dealing with irritated, otherwise law-abiding citizens, over minor traffic code violations or other petty stuff.

RIP Trooper Tony Radulesu
EOW February 23, 2012

 

[IJ1981]

Thank you, Old Dog. A fine, introspective post. The way those Officers died brings tears to my eyes.

The inhumanity is shocking.

 

[gunmechanic]

I wish i lived in a state like you guys, the only thing i can do gun wise now is look at pictures on line.I sure hope governor hochul does not outlaw online pictures.

 

[herrwalther]

I dug into the meat and potatoes of the AL law where duty to inform was added as part of the state going to permit less carry. It says the inform happens when the officer asks. I guess I can be okay with that. I don't like the first words out of my mouth to an officer be "By the way I have a firearm."

 

[warnerwh]

Up until this thread I used to think having to inform a leo that pulls you over was stupid. My thought had been that bad guys aren't going to offer that info and permit holders are rarely if ever a threat. In Oregon we're not required to let the police know we are armed. If it makes them feel more comfortable then if I am ever pulled over again I will volunteer the information even though it's not required. It hadn't occurred to me that the police would be more at ease knowing you have a permit but it does makes sense. I should have read this thread before I voted and I see no way to change it.

 

[MEHavey]

Peace Officers have enough problems stepping up to strangers in most all encounters.
...especially and increasingly these days.

I don't need to surprise them in any way.
And seeing a judicially-issued concealed weapon permit goes a long ways toward indicating the person is considered low threat.

 

[plainsdrifter]

They don't have to ask, it's usually in plain sight, tucked between my seat and the center seat.
They get thrown off if I get pulled over anyways, which is rare, as I always have my drivers license, proof of insurance and registration in my hand out the window. lol Both hands out the window. The last LEO saw my gun, said nothing.
He was like, Dang, no one has their **** ready like this.
I got pulled over for not stopping at a round a bout, yeah, like the only round a bout with stop signs. I told him that too and he said yup. Got a warning.

 

[Old Dog]

Up until this thread I used to think having to inform a leo that pulls you over was stupid. My thought had been that bad guys aren't going to offer that info and permit holders are rarely if ever a threat. In Oregon we're not required to let the police know we are armed. If it makes them feel more comfortable then if I am ever pulled over again I will volunteer the information even though it's not required. It hadn't occurred to me that the police would be more at ease knowing you have a permit but it does makes sense. I should have read this thread before I voted and I see no way to change it.

You're in Salem? Remember this incident in your neck of the woods not too long ago?
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/lo...fied/283-0880c3d4-ab26-4068-ac8b-c7b86b1bf2c9
I have been fairly impressed over the years with the professionalism of the OSP troopers I've encountered. No, never pulled over, but one went so far above and beyond when I blew a front tire on I-5 near Ashland, spare turned out to be flat (my bad) that I had to reach out to his bosses to let them know.

 

[warnerwh]

The state police here in Oregon are a very squared away bunch. I've been to one of their local offices and those guys look like they're ready for inspection.