Early Pressure Signs with RL17

[DKSDonnie]

I have a Savage Model 11 in 270 WSM with a 24" barrel. It will shoot 1/2" groups all day long with Winchester Supreme factory ammo. I've decided to reload for it for multiple reasons. Never reloaded for any of the WSM's. I started with RL17, 130 grain Accubond, and a C.O.A.L. of 2.850 which is what Nosler does most of their testing at for the 270 WSM. It just so happens that is it exactly 0.020 off the lands for this rifle. I started low in half grain increments and reached MAX pressures very quickly. It was halfway between START load and MAX load. I had to stop due to hard bolt lift and smears on the case head. The chrony was reading 3363 fps. Winchester says you can't replicate factory fps without going over pressure. The factory Winchester Supreme in 130 grain Ballistic Silvertips I usually run through it are at 3275 fps. I was way over pressure. The brass was Winchester once fired, Fully resized, shoulders bumped .003-.004 for smooth bolt operation. Win WLRM Primers. No oil residue on casings or chamber. 45 degree cloudy day. Groups with what I shot were at 2 1/2 to 3" at best. It was basically setup just like the manual calls for. What causes early high pressure signs with this powder or is it the powder. I have read about others seeing the same early pressure signs with this powder. Any ideas. I know it could be a multitude of things but I want to make sure it's just a part of reloading and finding that setup an individual gun likes.

 

[Laphroaig]

Your findings are interesting. I had always heard that Rl17 had burn characteristics that allowed it to generate relatively high velocities without going over pressure and was a good choice for the short magnums. The attached link says it nicely (almost like its a typical gun rag advertisement):

http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html

Every rifle is different. I'd say you need to back off a little until the pressure signs go away. You'll still probably be in the range of what the factory ammo gets. Sounds like you're getting terrible accuracy.

I've only used Rl17 in 7.5x55 and it didn't do anything IMR4350 couldn't IMO. I have a buddy who tried it in 30-06, and didn't like it either. I've wanted to try it in 270WSM too but had good results with Magpro and never got around to it. Its one of those orphan 1#ers looking for a use.

 

[Muddydogs]

Think about figuring out your own C.O.A.L. instead of using a number in a book which means little with your rifle. You stated that your .020 off the lands so why not try .015 and .010 off the lands? If the rounds will fit in your magazine you might find that less bullet in the case could help with your pressure issue.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Think about figuring out your own C.O.A.L. instead of using a number in a book which means little with your rifle. You stated that your .020 off the lands so why not try .015 and .010 off the lands? If the rounds will fit in your magazine you might find that less bullet in the case could help with your pressure issue.

Thought about that Muddy, but wouldn't that make pressures even higher because from what I read, the closer you get to the lands the more pressure you generate. Funny thing is, it shoots the factory ammo which measures anywhere from .080 to .100 ish and shoots fantastic for a hunting rifle.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Your findings are interesting. I had always heard that Rl17 had burn characteristics that allowed it to generate relatively high velocities without going over pressure and was a good choice for the short magnums. The attached link says it nicely (almost like its a typical gun rag advertisement):

http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html

Every rifle is different. I'd say you need to back off a little until the pressure signs go away. You'll still probably be in the range of what the factory ammo gets. Sounds like you're getting terrible accuracy.

I've only used Rl17 in 7.5x55 and it didn't do anything IMR4350 couldn't IMO. I have a buddy who tried it in 30-06, and didn't like it either. I've wanted to try it in 270WSM too but had good results with Magpro and never got around to it. Its one of those orphan 1#ers looking for a use.

I may do just that with backing off of the powder. If it will shoot close to factory fps with starting loads but will group better if I back it down, I'm happy. The only reason I started with RL17 was because from what I've read, it was made for the WSM's like you said. I use the manuals as a great starting point but seriously figured to get close to MAX pressures at the MAX loads. Just freaked me out when I'm basically shooting 3-4 grains under MAX and getting velocities of almost 100 fps over factory. I really scratch my head when I read many are shooting RL17 in their 270 WSM's with the same primers, powder, bullets, same COAL and they are 2 grains over MAX and getting 3400 fps with no pressures signs at all.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Are you sure you are actually off the lands and not hitting them? It sounds like the bullet is into the rifling which would account for the early high pressures. I would look there first.

Even though your ammo has the same COAL as the factory Winchester ammo you're not using the same bullet they are. The AccuBond bullet is longer and might be hitting the rifling or it might be seated deeper into the case raising the pressures. In reality both might be happening.

I just checked the current Nosler manual and they do not list RL-17 as one if the powders they use with a 130gr AccuBond bullet or any bullet weight in the 270 WSW, where did you get the load data? It looks like RL-17 is too fast a powder for this application. They don't use it on the Alliant site either.

 

[jmr40]

FWIW I had EXACTLY the same experience with RL17 and 300 WSM. A max load of h4350 resulted in excellent accuracy and about 2950 fps with 180's. A max load of RL17 is supposed to be about 100 fps faster and I'd read good reports with accuracy.

I don't recall the details, but I was still quite a bit below max when I started getting higher than expected speeds and pressure signs. When I backed off to around the same 2950 fps all was good with similar accuracy. I gave up on RL17 in that rifle and stayed with H4350 until I sold it.

If I understand right RL17 is a double base powder instead of the more common single base powder. Pressure builds up at a different rate. In other words a single base powder allows you to go up gradually in powder charge with predictable increases in pressure. Double base powders increase pressure at a different, less predictable rate.

Doesn't mean it is bad. It just didn't work well in my 300 WSM rifle. Lots of guys have gotten good results that are apparently safe. I've used RL15 in my 308 with no issues and it is also a double base powder.

 

[jmr40]

I just checked the current Nosler manual and they do not list RL-17 as one if the powders they use with a 130gr AccuBond bullet or any bullet weight in the 270 WSW, where did you get the load data? It looks like RL-17 is too fast a powder for this application. They don't use it on the Alliant site either.

It is there.

270 Win. Short Magnum Speer 130 gt BTSP Federal 2.7 24 Fed 215 Reloder 17 62 3,258

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It is there.

Is that in the newest manual, Nosler Reloading Guide 8? That isn't even the correct forum of data in the Nosler manual. Can't be the Nosler manual with a Speer bullet.

EDIT:
I just checked Lyman 50 and Hornady 10 and neither list RL-17. Both list RL-19 as the fastest Alliant powder except for Hornady 10 and their 110gr bullet. There they list RL-15 but still no RL-17.

 

[Laphroaig]

I had requested Rl17 data from Aliant when I was considering trying it in 270WSM, and they replied via email. They had tested it but not published it as of that date (9-12-2014). I tried to cut and paste it here but the formatting is messed up, and the only solution would be to retype it. I don't trust myself to not make a typo, so I won't do that.

They have data for 5 130 gr. bullets, but not the Accubond. Charges ranged from 61.9 to 62.9 grs., with velocities ranging from 3229 to 3299. Results for 1 140 and 2 150's as well.

I think your test results should put you ahead of looking at their data, but PM me and I'll forward their email if you wish.

Once again, try Magpro if you haven't.

 

[Muddydogs]

So how do you know your .020 off the lands? If You don't have data for the Accubond and your using a published COAL for another bullet are you sure your not touching the lands? Generally more bullet in the case increase pressure and seating less bullet in the case will reduce pressure until you touch the lands then pressure will climb significantly.

 

[sage5907]

My experience with Rl17 is that if your were getting high pressures with a certain charge weight of Rl17 is that you would also get high pressures with the same load of IMR 4350. I don't load for the 270 WSM but I use Rl17 in the 25-06, 270 Win, 30-06 and 338-06. The only way to find out which powder works best in your particular rifle is to load both powders and test them head to head. I have been to the range many times using IMR 4350 for one target and Rl17 for the next target. Accuracy is near equal with both powders and in many cases the Rl17 edges ahead of the IMR 4350. I find Rl17 to be especially easy on cases.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Are you sure you are actually off the lands and not hitting them? It sounds like the bullet is into the rifling which would account for the early high pressures. I would look there first.

Even though your ammo has the same COAL as the factory Winchester ammo you're not using the same bullet they are. The AccuBond bullet is longer and might be hitting the rifling or it might be seated deeper into the case raising the pressures. In reality both might be happening.

I just checked the current Nosler manual and they do not list RL-17 as one if the powders they use with a 130gr AccuBond bullet or any bullet weight in the 270 WSW, where did you get the load data? It looks like RL-17 is too fast a powder for this application. They don't use it on the Alliant site either.

It's on the Alliant site.
I use the Hornady Tool to check the distance to the lands. Did it multiple times. I may load a dummie round and smoke a bullet and see if that gives me a diff measurement. I know I'm off the lands because I don't feel it in the bolt closure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only diff between the Ballistic Tip and the Ballistic Silvertip is the Black coating on the Ballistic Silvertip. The only diff between the Accubond and the Ballistic Tip is the fact that the Accubond is a bonded bullet.

I'm loading 130 Grain Accubonds. Same bullet in the Nosler Book. ? I understand how much bullet could be in the case but distance to the lands when the ogive of the bullet hits the lands is what you are measuring.

I found load data for the same setup only for a 140 Grain Accubond. From what I've seen, If everything is the same and all u change is the bullet weight, the heavier bullets had a lower MAX load than the lighter bullets did. I think the 140's were a MAX of 60 grains of RL17 so I used 62 grains as a Max for the 130's. I started at 58 grains and went up 1/2 grain intervals and when I got to 59-59.5, I was at 3363 fps and a real sticky bolt.

 

[DKSDonnie]

So how do you know your .020 off the lands? If You don't have data for the Accubond and your using a published COAL for another bullet are you sure your not touching the lands? Generally more bullet in the case increase pressure and seating less bullet in the case will reduce pressure until you touch the lands then pressure will climb significantly.

Why do i need data to find how far a bullet is off the lands? Data in a book doesn't know my guns throat measuremnts.

 

[DKSDonnie]

So how do you know your .020 off the lands? If You don't have data for the Accubond and your using a published COAL for another bullet are you sure your not touching the lands? Generally more bullet in the case increase pressure and seating less bullet in the case will reduce pressure until you touch the lands then pressure will climb significantly.

I've also read where, yes, jamming more bullet in the case does raise pressures but you are also moving away from the lands which balances out the pressure. You can jam more bullet in the case and pressures will drop until you get to a point where you have that spot where now the less space in the case overtakes the distance from the lands and now the pressure goes back up.

 

[DKSDonnie]

My experience with Rl17 is that if your were getting high pressures with a certain charge weight of Rl17 is that you would also get high pressures with the same load of IMR 4350. I don't load for the 270 WSM but I use Rl17 in the 25-06, 270 Win, 30-06 and 338-06. The only way to find out which powder works best in your particular rifle is to load both powders and test them head to head. I have been to the range many times using IMR 4350 for one target and Rl17 for the next target. Accuracy is near equal with both powders and in many cases the Rl17 edges ahead of the IMR 4350. I find Rl17 to be especially easy on cases.

Will make a note of these steps sage. TY.

 

[DKSDonnie]

FWIW I had EXACTLY the same experience with RL17 and 300 WSM. A max load of h4350 resulted in excellent accuracy and about 2950 fps with 180's. A max load of RL17 is supposed to be about 100 fps faster and I'd read good reports with accuracy.

I don't recall the details, but I was still quite a bit below max when I started getting higher than expected speeds and pressure signs. When I backed off to around the same 2950 fps all was good with similar accuracy. I gave up on RL17 in that rifle and stayed with H4350 until I sold it.

If I understand right RL17 is a double base powder instead of the more common single base powder. Pressure builds up at a different rate. In other words a single base powder allows you to go up gradually in powder charge with predictable increases in pressure. Double base powders increase pressure at a different, less predictable rate.

Doesn't mean it is bad. It just didn't work well in my 300 WSM rifle. Lots of guys have gotten good results that are apparently safe. I've used RL15 in my 308 with no issues and it is also a double base powder.

What i don't understand is how many reloaders on diff websites rave about the RL17 powder in their WSM's and how it was made for the WSM's and how it is the greatest thing since PB&J, but there is no data on RL17 in the Nosler #8 or LYMAN book for loads for this round. Many were getting upwards of 3,300 to 3,400 fps with 62 grans in 140 grain Accubonds and other 140 grain bullets with no pressure signs at all. To me, that's entirely too hot. The max i found for 140's was like 60 grains. I used 62 grains as a MAX for the 130 grain Accubond with the RL17. Numbers just aren't matching up.

 

[sage5907]

I'm not questioning how you calculated the .020 to the lands but there is an easy way to find out when your bullet touches the lands without using a precision micrometer. You may already know how to do this. You need a 2-3 outside micrometer that will measure COAL. The next time you seat a bullet back your seating die depth adjustment off .010 and mark the ojive of the bullet with a black sharpie. The COAL on this cartridge will be .010 longer than before. Cycle the loaded cartridge through the chamber an look for rifling marks on the bullet. The land marks will easily show up in the black mark around the bullet. If none are found back the seating die adjustment off another .010 and try again with another cartridge. Repeat until you see the marks on the bullet. When you see marks on the bullet you know you are touching the lands and can set the seating depth adjustment accordingly to get the desired distance to the lands. During the process you will be able to determine how much the seating depth changes with one full turn on the seating die adjustment.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I'm not questioning how you calculated the .020 to the lands but there is an easy way to find out when your bullet touches the lands without using a precision micrometer. You may already know how to do this. You need a 2-3 outside micrometer that will measure COAL. The next time you seat a bullet back your seating die depth adjustment off .010 and mark the ojive of the bullet with a black sharpie. The COAL on this cartridge will be .010 longer than before. Cycle the loaded cartridge through the chamber an look for rifling marks on the bullet. The land marks will easily show up in the black mark around the bullet. If none are found back the seating die adjustment off another .010 and try again with another cartridge. Repeat until you see the marks on the bullet. When you see marks on the bullet you know you are touching the lands and can set the seating depth adjustment accordingly to get the desired distance to the lands. During the process you will be able to determine how much the seating depth changes with one full turn on the seating die adjustment.

I'm going down to the mancave here in a little bit to do this so I can make sure I'm getting proper measurements.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I'm not questioning how you calculated the .020 to the lands but there is an easy way to find out when your bullet touches the lands without using a precision micrometer. You may already know how to do this. You need a 2-3 outside micrometer that will measure COAL. The next time you seat a bullet back your seating die depth adjustment off .010 and mark the ojive of the bullet with a black sharpie. The COAL on this cartridge will be .010 longer than before. Cycle the loaded cartridge through the chamber an look for rifling marks on the bullet. The land marks will easily show up in the black mark around the bullet. If none are found back the seating die adjustment off another .010 and try again with another cartridge. Repeat until you see the marks on the bullet. When you see marks on the bullet you know you are touching the lands and can set the seating depth adjustment accordingly to get the desired distance to the lands. During the process you will be able to determine how much the seating depth changes with one full turn on the seating die adjustment.

I actually found a blog on this site that had a couple fellows say that they had a formula for this. 1,000 thousands in 1 inch. Dies are 14 threads per inch. So their fumula made it so 1/8 turn equaled .009 and 1/4 turn equaled .0178. Another person used 1 full turn as .060 and 1/4 turn was .015 and then he could get fine on the adjustments to get to where he wanted. Thought that was pretty nice to know.

 

[sage5907]

Everyone has their own method. I always set the micrometer .010 longer and then slowly seat the bullet deeper into the case neck and as it moves I try it at intervals inside the micrometer until it fits. In my past I went to machinist school and I measure everything. If 1/8 turn is .009 that is good to know. I don't do this often enough to remember so every time I do this I learn it all over again.

 

[DKSDonnie]

Okay, I checked the "To the Lands" measurement again in 2 ways. O used my Hornady Tool and to the lands was 2.8700". I used Sage's method with a Sharpie and I used fingernail polish just to see if it would work and it came out to 2.8750. A diff of .005 between the 2 diff ways. So I was shooting the loads with RL17 at 2.8500" which is 0.025 off the lands using the Sharpie method chambering the round with a fired case. So I would say that .020-.025 off the lands shouldn't show an early pressure sign. Am I wrong here. Now we know that according to the Nosler Book, they are loading everything at 2.850", but that doesn't mean that the rifle barrel and chamber they used for testing didn't have a long throat and maybe they were .050 off the lands.

 

[sage5907]

Just out of curiosity I looked at my Alliant loading manual and it showed a minimum overall length for the 270 WSM and 130 grain Ballistic Tip at 2.820. I think the next step I would do would be to check your powder scales by weighing a 130 grain bullet to see what it weighs. When people are instructing others about maximum loads they always say to start low and work up to the maximum charge. What they are really doing is saying that you need to work up to maximum charge just in case your setup is exceeding the maximum charge listed in the loading manual.

 

[GooseGestapo]

It's your Savage Barrel!

I had a M110 left hand action in .30/06.
With factory ammo, it gave the same high pressure signs you are getting, along with higher than expected velocities.
Working up loads using 150gr bullets and IMR4064 I found it topped out at 2.5gr before my other .30/06 rifles.
Some manuals say 52-53gr gives maximum load with velocities of 3,000fps. My Savage topped out at 50.0 and 2,990fps, with a 22"bbl.

I've got a Savage M110 in .300 RemUltraMag, 26"bbl.
Manuals suggest 100.5gr of Retumbo under a 180gr bullet gives 3,300fps. My barrel gets 3,350fps from 98.0gr.

Also, be aware that the Accubond, Accubond LR, and Ballistic SilverTips are quite different animals. The Accubond has a bit thicker jacket which will cause it to run a tad bit more pressure.

I also had a Savage Axis that was sort of the same way. With a Hornady 65gr Vmax, it gave 3,700fps and 1/2" 5-shot groups with 42.5gr of IMR4064. Manuals suggested 3,550 from a 22"bbl.

 

[old heeler]

I got this from Alliant site and is this load you used

http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=25&cartridge=64