Edgewater Florida PD; AR discharge....

[RustyShackelford]

The Orlando area media reported how a Edgewater Florida police officer had a mishap when the key ring on his duty belt got caught in the triggerguard of his AR 5.56x45mm.
The M4 discharged into the ground.
No one was hurt but the cop's in hot water.
The PD chief now mandated no other patrol officer can use duty key rings.
The brand of M4 is unknown.

The lesson is to be careful. If you run & gun, be aware of any loose items or hooks/snaps/rings/etc that can snag or get caught as you move.

 

[wally]

Why was the safety off while on the move?

 

[Warp]

Why was the safety off while on the move?

That's the only question I had while reading the OP.

But we also need to keep in mind that the safety can be disengaged by unluckily getting swiped by something on your belt or clothing.

I think it's a good idea to keep your primary hand at fire control with thumb maintaining the safety on safe, or periodically check the safety to make sure it has remained engaged.

If you are rather unlucky I'm sure you could get the safety swiped off and then the trigger pulled.

I know people say that a slung rifle on safe is "exactly the same as a holstered handgun", but I don't fully believe that, since the safety and trigger are not protected, as a handgun is when in a holster.

 

[wally]

Actually I have no idea what a "duty key ring" is, or why banning them might solve the problem. Like Warp said, lots of things to snag on if you are careless and unlucky.

I can't call having a loaded rifle flopping around on a sling as anything but careless. I though empty chamber, cocked and locked was the recommended carry until action is immanent -- can quickly be charged with the safety on.

 

[Liberty Suppressors]

Originally Posted by wally View Post
Why was the safety off while on the move?



...aaand there is the primary question that SHOULD be asked!

Tim @ Liberty

 

[aarondhgraham]

Typical reaction,,,

The PD chief now mandated no other patrol officer can use duty key rings.

Typical,,,
Ban the behavior,,,
Don't try to analyze it for improvement.

Aarond

.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Actually I have no idea what a "duty key ring" is

Or some such variation.

It's a silly thing to ban. Officers will just start cramming the keys behind their duty belt so they can still snatch them out quickly without having to dig in a pocket.

 

[mstreddy]

Actually, there are several questions in this.
Was the weapon on fire? How was it carried?
It is possible for anything to get in the trigger guard.
The Dept banning duty key rings is a classic case of addressing the incorrect item. I could see the patrol radio antenna getting into the trigger guard. As well as anything else that is on the belt.
I'm thinking that how the Marines and AF carried the M16s on post (not in a combat zone) is a safer approach. They are carried with a magazine inserted, bolt closed on an empty chamber. Manual of arms is for racking the charging handle as you prepare to fire and disengaging the safety. - as Wally mentioned.

 

[Warp]

Actually, there are several questions in this.
Was the weapon on fire? How was it carried?
It is possible for anything to get in the trigger guard.
The Dept banning duty key rings is a classic case of addressing the incorrect item. I could see the patrol radio antenna getting into the trigger guard. As well as anything else that is on the belt.
I'm thinking that how the Marines and AF carried the M16s on post (not in a combat zone) is a safer approach. They are carried with a magazine inserted, bolt closed on an empty chamber. Manual of arms is for racking the charging handle as you prepare to fire and disengaging the safety. - as Wally mentioned.

That is how LE often carries long guns in vehicles...empty chamber, loaded magazine/tube, safety on, bolt/slide closed. It is known as "cruiser ready", and is how I personally keep my ready-to-go long guns

 

[dprice3844444]

now,if the car he is issued is a take home car,he has a wad of keys on this ring,house,wife's,kids,handcuff,police dept,etc.using that 1 over the head arm through the sling holder puts the rifle near keys.rifle may not have had safety on.as your moving,rifle could have,with rifle hanging freely,keys could have engaged trigger.adjusting rifle,instead of stopping to carefully correct situation,he acted in a hurry.

 

[smogmage]

I'm very familar with duty belt key holders and this is more along the lines of what I could see causing this situation.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Why was the safety off while on the move?

In addition, why was there a round in the chamber? Was he in an "active shooter" situation?

 

[strambo]

Was that even the real cause or did he trigger the round and blame it on the key ring? (nobody could ever know for sure)
Yes, silly to ban an object when there were some training and handling failures that led to this even if the key ring played a part.

 

[rodinal220]

Typical.

They should think about using a "silent" key holder like this one/type. No need to sound like a janitor.

http://www.texshoemaker.com/88SK-Silent-Key-Holder-88SK-Silent-Key-Holder.htm

If you are going to store an AR15/M16 "cruiser ready" the hammer must be in a forward position,bolt closed on an empty chamber,so you cannot put the safety in the "on" position with this weapon type.

I once saw a GO(General Order) from a PD where the Chief and his special children think tank, drafted it to read that the Dept AR15s had to be "cruiser ready" empty chamber,bolt forward,hammer forward with the safety on,I giggled silently to myself.

 

[Destructo6]

That is how LE often carries long guns in vehicles...empty chamber, loaded magazine/tube, safety on, bolt/slide closed. It is known as "cruiser ready", and is how I personally keep my ready-to-go long guns

We call it, "vehicle standby" (as opposed to "hot standby"). It is bolt closed on an empty chamber, loaded magazine in place, and the weapon on, "safe". Furthermore, users are reminded that the weapon must remain on safe until which time they've made the decision to shoot AND are aimed in at the target.

However, when the weapon is taken out of the vehicle for use, it should be charged, hot, and on safe. This recommendation is intended to avoid causing double feeds or other stoppages if the user comes under fire or otherwise needs to use it NOW whilst seeking cover, etc.

I, too, will ask, "why was it off safe?"

 

[Jackal]

Human error. Thankfully it didnt have a tragic outcome. With all those keys, maybe he was trying to remove his trigger lock.

 

[Tirod]

There IS a problem with using a duty key ring - about the only key the officer needs on duty is his cruiser key - likely a electronic fob - and a handcuff key.

What happens is that some like to collect keys as it makes them appear to be more in control politically. That's exactly the wrong thing to allow, especially in a PD where so much needs to have controlled access. Handing out keys to one and all is a major security breach.

I used to key commercial buildings, including PD's, and the problem is that people in various capacities insist on having access to areas in order to circumvent going thru channels. So, the office manager keeps a key to the janitor's closet, her bosses office, the supply closet, etc. Very few have them keyed to a master/submaster system that does that type of control better. That would require thought, laying out the wire diagram of authority, and then, being subject to it. Nobody wants that.

So, you get the baseball sized key ring hauled around all day long so that the bearer will look important. It's wrong on so many levels that I applaud the Police Chief's decision. It's too bad it took something stupid to make it happen.

 

[9mmepiphany]

We were issued these along with our other safety equipment when we were hired. I think I wore it on my belt once for academy uniform inspection.

In the field, your vehicle key, actually the metal tab it was attached to, went behind your belt buckle. The rest of your keys either went into your pocket or in your equipment bag (back in the car)...nobody wanted to have jingling key on their belt.

Long guns were carried in cars in Cruiser Ready...empty chamber, loaded magazine, closed action, safety on; just like shotguns...but the standard procedure was to charge the chamber was you brought the gun out of the car to use on a call. The safety stays on until you come up on target

 

[hartcreek]

Why is it that the majority of NDs that you hear about are law enforcement people?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Because:

1. They usually happen when on duty and involved in something with a lot of witnesses

2. Most non-LE folks who have NDs don't tell anyone

3. Non-LE related NDs aren't reported by others unless the round hits/almost hits someone

 

[Warp]

If you are going to store an AR15/M16 "cruiser ready" the hammer must be in a forward position,bolt closed on an empty chamber,so you cannot put the safety in the "on" position with this weapon type.

What I am familiar with is the rifle charged (hammer back) so that the safety can be on.

Which is how I like it, personally...hate having a supposedly-unloaded and 'safe' firearm with the action closed off-safe.

 

[Destructo6]

What I am familiar with is the rifle charged (hammer back) so that the safety can be on.

Which is how I like it, personally...hate having a supposedly-unloaded and 'safe' firearm with the action closed off-safe.

Same here.

We used to carry M4s in the aforementioned "cruiser ready" (bolt forward on empty chamber, hammer down, off safe). We also had quite a few ADs.

One massive problem is that folks get accustomed to the weapon being off safe and that being considered a safe way to carry it. So, when the time comes to charge the weapon for use, as often as not it stayed off safe, which is a definite problem.

 

[Tirod]

There are over 780,000 officers who carry live rounds chambered on duty every day in America. The majority are the median average in build and intelligence.

Ergo, just the same as you and me, with exactly the same propensity to screw up. We read about theirs, they wait for your neighbor to complain before knocking on your door. Like any other govern't employee hired to carry a gun, they actually have less rights on the job and more restrictions on what they do and who they answer to. They even get told if and when they can hang a key ring on their belt.

Put 780,000 armed troops in the field, you will hear and see ND's. I've seen two, one at a range fire cleaning their weapon after it was rodded off and cleared by the Safety, another incountry working with a host nation when a full auto weapon was being removed from a turret at end of shift. Neither struck anyone, just pure luck as both areas were congested. It always gets a lot of attention, just from the chain of command. Out on the street, the media piles on to make the front page.

Here at home, you get to shoot the toilet to get any attention.

 

[DanielMeaseII]

justification and no responsibility

Hello, *I am Daniel Mease II. *Someone could have been killed that night due to the negligence of that officer. I would know. I was 2-5 feet in front of the officer when he discharged his weapon. *This is bogus that they blame a key ring and the real story needs to get out. His weapon should have been on safe period! I am a marine vet who was at my father's house spending memorial day with my dad, also a disabled marine vet. *I'm waiting for the news to actually look into this and investigate. Where are dash cams, Mic recordings, the qualifications of this officer. ... NO ONE is buying the keyring story. How is it they show up to a supposed hostage call, one officer gets out of his patrol car smoking a cigarette and the other with his AR-15 with a red laser sight on it ask me my name and if I lived at that address and after giving them the info they needed they tell me if I don't show them my ID (as the one smoking the cigarette pulls out his taser and the other points the AR-15 at me) I was going to be arrested. *As I explained my ID was in my car I proceeded to my car to retrieve it. That's when the officer ND his weapon 2 to 5 feet behind me. Then after he discharged his weapon it went from being a "hostage" situation to them placing me in the back of a squad car as they look for the casing and where the round might have hit. You want answers you should really investigate this. This police department has been investigated, along with the officer that shot off his weapon, many times before. I'm asking for help to investigate and fight this. Someone needs to take responsibility for their actions and weapons handling instead of covering up the true events and justifying it on a keyring. *I've maybe slept a total of 8 hours since memorial day and have been having ringing in my ears.

 

[Glockula]

I just want to clarify that as a Marine Security Guard we carried all of our weapons condition 1 (round in the chamber) with the safety on. We loaded and unloaded in clearing barrels. Sounds like this PD needs to review weapons safety at the very least and the truth needs to be found.