Effectiveness of the .380?

[fjolnirsson]

I'm looking for something very small. I recently started a new job. It's a small company(20 or so employees), and we're in a very rural part of Oregon, so I don't think carrying would be a big deal, and there's nothing I've seen or heard forbidding it. All the same, I have this job through a temp agency(for now), which means I must be very careful. I could find another job, sure. However, the hours are perfect, the work is what I want, the location(<5 minutes drive from my house) is great, and the pay increases are very generous. There have already been hints after 2 weeks, of my position becoming permanent after 90 days. To needlessly complicate matters would be plain dumb.
I plan to go on a "don't ask, don't tell policy. If the boss doesn't ask if I'm carrying, I won't tell him. I don't forsee any disgruntled emplyees shooting the place up, and we are not in a violent city or part of one. However, crap happens, and Murphy's law does apply. My job is very physical, and concealment of my Glock 21, 22, or .44 special will not work at all. I need something tiny .
I've looked at the Kel Tec P3AT, and it seems ideal. I can slip it in a pocket, and nobody will be the wiser. I only need a gun to get me to my truck, perhaps 100 yards away at most, then I'm gone. I plan to keep more gun in the truck, as well. The Kel Tec would also serve as a BUG when not at work. I'm close enough to an exit door in my work area that I could easily be gone quickly.
The price is right, too.
So, my questions are these...
Is the .380 a reliable cartridge, and is the P3AT a reliable gun for my situation? Do any of you folks have a P3AT? What are the negatives? Would any of you feel uncomfortable in my situation with just the .380 for defense?
Anyone?
Also, anybody have links to ballistics testing for the round?

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have a P3 and it has proven acceptably reliable, although not particularly fun to shoot. As far as the effectiveness of the .380 ACP round, it is an intermediate cartridge and performs accordingly. Significantly better than .22, .25 or .32, it is not on par with 9x19, .40, 10mm or .45. However, when situation demands something smaller, it is the most effective round you will get in a true mouse gun. Using such ammunition as Cor-Bon or Speer Gold dots, etc. makes the round that much more. While I prefer to carry my 10mm, when situation dictates I cannot, I simply remember that the .380 Auto has killed a great many people over the last century. Shot placement is everything, and any gun is better than no gun.

 

[1 old 0311]

Go to ktog.org. They have a site and most of the owners seem to like them.

Kevin

 

[scubie02]

I've got the p32 for use as a "I just can't seem to conceal anything else in this situation" gun. So far mine has been totally reliable, and its surprisingly accurate. You do need to practice, though--the trigger etc take some getting used to. And its true they aren't really fun to shoot. Definitely serve a purpose.

 

[grimjaw]

.380ACP is woefully underpowered, even for a handgun cartridge. You are better spitting at your foe than firing at him with an impotent .380ACP. Don't let the fact that I will soon be carrying something chambered for it sway you.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with .380ACP. I just read a THR thread discussing a recent shooting where a man took three .45ACP shots and still had to be put down with batons and pepper spray. Handguns are not death rays. Out of a heavier gun than the Keltec, .380ACP is easy to shoot. I have a Makarov chambered for that round and I could shoot it all day. If I had the opportunity and was going to be holding a firecracker anyway, it would be something concealable with a slightly more powerful round, say a S&W 642 and .38 Spec?

I don't have any personal experience with the Keltec brand, but nothing I've seen or read has made me want to own one.

HTH, jmm

 

[1911Tuner]

The Ubiquitous .380 ACP

The .380 is underpowered for defensive purposes when compared to its more
well-endowed brethren. The .380 is perfectly capable of ruining your day.
Roughly equal to the standard pressure .38 Special with 158-grain round nose lead bullets, it's also capable of sending you on to glory, and quickly if well placed. Lotta graves have been filled with the old wimpy .38 Special. If I were in a medium to high risk area, and had to choose between the .380 and a sharp stick...you don't have to wonder what I'd choose.

Don't expect match-grade accuracy, though some fine little pistols chambered for the round will shock you with ragged groups. It wasn't intended to win matches with, and neither were the pistols that take it.
It's a close-quarters defensive gun that will most likely be deployed at touching distance...A "Belly Gun".

Best to stick with round nose full metal jacket ammo. Penetration is the fly in the ointment. Just my 2% of a buck...

 

[wdlsguy]

The P3AT sounds perfect for your application. Just make sure yours runs well and get a good pocket holster for it.

 

[Preacherman]

Regrettably, I've never found the baby Kel-Tec's to be acceptably reliable. I've owned two P3-AT's and three P32's, and not one would go 200 rounds without a stoppage (or more than one) of some kind. Since I regard the classic 200-rounds-without-any-problems test as being absolutely fundamental for a defensive firearm, I don't own small Kel-Tec's any more...

My suggestion would be an airweight or titanium J-frame or equivalent. They're not hard to conceal in a pocket holster, and I'm comfortable with their reliability.

 

[jehu]

You need a Rohrbaugh R9, very small, 9mm, and very well made, but expensive.

 

[RecoilRob]

The KT P-32/.380 are perfect for your situation. Agree with them being not fun to shoot but a whole lot better than being unarmed.

As far as reliability is concerned, some people demand the 200 round test before they will trust a pistol for carry. This is WAY beyond the mission profile of the mousegun and may not be a valid test for them. The most any MG will be fired in anger is probably two magazines.

My P-32 has been flawless each time I burn up the carry mags but I wouldn't want to bet that it would fire 200 rounds without cleaning. So far, 300 rounds without failure but no more than 30 or so at any particular range session. I think this is adequate for the weapon.

 

[Bobo]

If you want an auto that you can carry around comfortably all day in your front pocket without being noticed the P-3AT would be fine. Something that small and easy to carry requires a compromise in power. Reports are that they are iffy out-of-the-box. Some work perfectly, some have problems (about 50/50).

The NAA Guardian would also work well, smaller, but heavier (20 oz. loaded, may not be as comfortable all day, although many think it is fine), and costs more (about $400). Comes in .380 and .32NAA the latter which many think is more potent than either the .380 or 9mm (except 9mm +p), but the .32NAA ammo is expensive and only Cor-Bon makes it. Most Guardians seem to be more reliable out-of-the-box by most reports than the P-3AT.

The Rohrbaugh is heavier (17 oz. loaded), about the same size, and more potent (9mm, no +P), but costs a lot more (about $1000) and may be harder to find. Most of them are very reliable out-of-the box by most reports. The "Cadillac" of mouseguns.

Whichever you choose -- keep it clean (mouseguns need to be clean) and use a holster.

 

[Cueball]

I can't speak about that particular gun, I use a SIG P230 in the 380 cal. To help "even the odds" so to speak as compared to some of the larger calibers, I always keep HydraShocks in my mag and I am comfortable with its ability to stop an approaching threat. So, 380 with the right cartridge would be fine, as long as the gun shooting it is reliable.

 

[MikeJ]

It sounds as if from your post that the KelTec .380 should serve you well for its intended purpose. I have a NAA Guardian .32 that I carry when I absolutely positively can't carry anything larger. I personally much prefer my S&W 442 Airweight as a pocket gun when I can carry it and feel much more secure with it. As Preacherman suggested if your style of dress permits I too would strongly recommend taking a look at one of the concealed hammer styles of lightweight revolvers.

 

[Wilson 17&26]

I have a couple of Second-Generation P-3ATs and a bunch of First-Generation P-3ATs and all now function 100%.

Two P-3ATs that I bought used earlier this year required a bit of tinkering (less than 2 hrs combined). The factory would have fixed theses minor problems free but the owners elected to sell them to me for pennies on the dollar rather spending $14 to send them to Florida.

If you buy a P–3AT plan on firing 200 rounds of mixed copper cased ammo through for break-in before determining how it functions. If you do a Fluff & Buff you can eliminate most of the break-in rounds. If it isn’t 100% by then send it to Kel-Tec or visit KTOG.com or KTRange.com.

PS there are several .380 rounds that will consistently penetrate 16 inches out of a P-3AT barrel.

 

[JohnKSa]

Get the chromed model. They seem to be a touch more likely to be reliable. The only Kel-Tec mini-pistol I've fired is hard-chromed and has never jammed.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Preacherman, did you Kel Tec ever jam at say under 50 rounds?

I have always wondered about that 200 round rule. If the gun never jams at less than the number of rounds you are carrying, then your gun is 100% reliable for carry purposes.

I agree its nice when a gun will go more than 200 rounds without a jam. But some of the smaller guns like the Kel Tec are very sensitive to being clean, and if it is just jamming from getting dirty, and not a mechanical problem, then I think it is fine if it won't go 200 rounds.

 

[g_gunter]

I like it.

Preacherman stated:

"Regrettably, I've never found the baby Kel-Tec's to be acceptably reliable. I've owned two P3-AT's and three P32's, and not one would go 200 rounds without a stoppage (or more than one) of some kind. Since I regard the classic 200-rounds-without-any-problems test as being absolutely fundamental for a defensive firearm, I don't own small Kel-Tec's any more...

My suggestion would be an airweight or titanium J-frame or equivalent. They're not hard to conceal in a pocket holster, and I'm comfortable with their reliability."

Actually, I've had mine for about 6 months and have been pleased. I carry it everywhere and do not find it uncomfortable to shoot for 30-50 rds. at a time. I had to send it to Kel-Tec to have the feed ramp & barrel polished because it was not reliable out of the box. However, it now runs reliably for about 40 rounds before it needs cleaning. I have not tried it for 200 rds. non-stop between cleanings since it is not designed to function reliably for that long. Its a backup gun and its not likely you will need it to function through more than 1 to 2 mags (12-13 rds). I realize that some may not agree with this but for what its designed, I am fine with it.

For the purpose that fjolnirsson states I would have no problem trusting it. That is, as long as you wring it out really well. You may even have to send it in to Kel-Tec for polishing but they move pretty quickly and will get it right back to you.

g_gunter

 

[1911Tuner]

Reliable

Dirt sensitive and if it doesn't jam for the number of rounds normally carried...Hmmm. That appeals to logic, but the fly in the ointment is that carrying a gun gets it dirty. Lint, grit, etc. can work its way into tiny recesses and gum up the works. Another logical, but unrealistic assumption is that...because the biggest percentage of gunfights are over within 5 rounds total expenditure, that if the gun doesn't jam in 5 rounds, it can be trusted.
In a 50-round test, with a jam on the 49th round there's just no way to predict when that jam will occur the next time.

I dunno...Better that the gun function for 200 rounds minimum...dirty or clean...Drippin' with oil or dry as a popcorn poot...regardless of grip or attitude. (Straight up or canted to the side...or even upside down for that matter.) Anyway...Those are my criteria, but then, I'm anal over reliability.
YMMV

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have always wondered about that 200 round rule. If the gun never jams at less than the number of rounds you are carrying, then your gun is 100% reliable for carry purposes.

That is not good math, my friend. IF your gun can only fire one magazine without jamming, it is a plinker at best (better used as a paper weight) If the MRBS is 7 rounds, the gun is extremely UNreliable. If it is 200 rounds, the gun is fairly reliable. 2000+ rounds, and the gun is very reliable. But no gun is 100% reliable for any purpose. Even a single shot can fail if there is part breakage or defective ammunition.

The 200 MRBS rule is applied because it shows the gun is roughly 99.5% reliable. Your life is worth that. My Kel Tec P3 is 98.8 % reliable with all ammunition tested (83 MRBS), having fired 250 rounds through it with 3 failures. It is 99.5% reliable with Speer Gold Dots and 96% reliable with UMC 90 gr. FMJ (200 rounds of Gold Dot with 1 failure, 50 rounds of UMC with 2 failures).

I pray that anyone who fires a gun at me uses one that has an MRBS average of 1 magazine. That means I'll be able to walk up and crack their skull when (not if) their gun fails.

 

[1911Tuner]

Math

MachIV...+1 and have to agree 100%. 2,000 rounds is my litmus test too.
If I get a single malfunction, other than failure to lock the slide, I try to duplicate the malfunction with the same ammo...under the same conditions with the same magazine 10 times. If it doesn't happen again, I continue.
If it happens again at ANY point, I start lookin' for why. If the gun passes, I'll carry it.

Ask yourselves...If you bought a case lot of ammo that gave up one misfire per hundred rounds...would you use it in your carry pistol?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Go to ktog.org. They have a site and most of the owners seem to like them.

Sure enough. Anyone who says anything negative gets banned and their posts get removed!

Sadly, KelTec has such a great customer service reputation because a high percentage of KelTec owners have to send in their guns for service. KelTec treats them right, but the guns should not have left the factory in the first place in the conditions they do. KelTec relies on the customer for quality control.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

MachIVshooter and Tuner,

First, let me say I am not advocating carrying a gun that is unreliable or can only fire one magazine without failing.

Also, I agree with your math, but that is not the point I am raising.

I am raising a very specific situation:

Lets say your Kel Tec (or whatever) can always fire 49 rounds without jamming, but then it gets dirty and will always jam on the 50th round. This gun would fail the 200 round test, but does that really mean it is unfit for carry?

Obviously, if a gun has a mechanical problem or jams sporadically, then this theoretical example would not apply, and the gun is not trustworthy. But I have several guns that will not fail ever until they get dirty. I have some really tight 1911s that I can almost predict to the round when they will fail from dirtiness.

Would you deem a gun to be unfit for carry if it would always 100% of the time and without fail be able to fire 49 consecutive rounds, and then fail 100% of the time on the 50th round?

I carry a Glock most of the time, so I never have to worry about these jams other people talk about, anyway.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mo' Math

Lone Gunman...I hear what yer sayin'.

My point was that you can't depend on just where that jam will occur within the 50-rounds. Never seen one that would run perfectly for a definite number of rounds and then hang up at a predictable number. one. Once in 50 or 100 or a thousand, etc. generally comes anywhere without knowing. if we could know, we'd fire until it jammed...clear it...and venture forth secure that it wouldn't happen again unless we reached its limit.

 

[147 Grain]

I suggest a minimum of 9mm or preferably a compact 45 auto like the PT-145 Millennium Pro. About as small as any 380 and 3 times as effective.



Under $300 at Davidsons.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Let's see,
Taurus Millineum Pro-23oz, empty.
Kel Tec p-11, 20 oz, loaded.
Kel Tec p-3AT, 10 oz, loaded.

I'd love to carry a subcompact .45
I just know it isn't an option, given my work environment. Anything that large will print like an elephant under my clothes.

I would love one of those hammerless lightweight revolvers Preacherman was talking about. No worries with reliablity there, but it just isn't in my price range right now. same with the rohrbach's(sp?).
I am seriously considering the P-11, though. Not much bigger, and a 9mm. I'm gonna try to make it back to the gun shop this week to handle both.
Thanks for the input, everybody.