Elk Populations & Hunting in the SW

[Harve Curry]

Another thread rekindled my interest in the question about elk being hunted to near extinction in Arizona and New Mexico. Being a elk /deer hunting guide I get to be out more then most and know how hard it can be in those mountains. Even with the best of todays spotting scopes elk can avoid detection so I think it is probable that the reports that the elk were gone by 1890 to 1900 were false. Elk are smart, can see, have a memory and use it. Knowing some pretty hardy types (myself not included) how could our ancestors have shot them out with no optics, iron sight rifles, early metalic cartridges like 45-70 and 30-30's?
These elk can have an unusually large antlers compared to northern parts of New Mexico and Arizona. Some say it's because there were some elk left and they bred with the elk reintroduced (Roosevelt elk) early in the 1900's.
What do you all think?
, Bill Weddle

 

[ArmedBear]

A few thoughts...

Back then, there were no hunting seasons, no hunting regulations, and no tags or limits. Market hunting was legal, and boom towns, mining companies, logging companies and railroads provided a ready market for meat.

I'd believe that the reports of the elk being gone by 1890 to 1900 were true -- from the perspective of the reporters. The elk you could easily see were indeed gone.

Here's a similar story from California: http://bss.sfsu.edu/holzman/courses/Fall00Projects/Tule_elk.html

The .30-30 wasn't around in the commercial market until 1895, so it wasn't a factor.

I've hunted with some BP cartridge and history nuts, and there are stories of skilled market hunters shooting antelope at 400+ yards with .45-70s and iron sights. Elk are somewhat larger and easier to hit.

The .45-70 with a heavy bullet is a very effective round on large game at distance -- provided you can hit your target with the rainbow trajectory. The guys I was with, could. Cowboy-style facial hair and lots of practice seem to be prerequisites. They'd tell me exactly how high to aim at a given distance, and they'd be dead-on.

So, given the shooting skills of the market hunters, using a .45-70 is not a problem. Without hunting regulations, you can go after all the elk you can find, any age, either sex, any time of year -- like when food and water scarcity force the elk to certain locations. When the elk travel in herds, they're not hard to find.

 

[Art Eatman]

Sorta guessing, since not even I wuz around in 1900...

Market hunting was the cause of major declines, yeah. Wiped out the passenger pigeon. Really hurt the populations of ducks and geese. But by 1900 the supply of beef to hotels and such reduced the demand for game animals. Cows were more easily come by than deer or elk.

I'd have to guess that the average fella, not seeing elk around "like in the good ol' days", quite possibly bought into the "extinct" idea. People tend to do that sort of exaggeration.

The period 1900-1930s saw the rise in organized game laws to control hunting and bring back the populations of game animals. Hunters finally had figured out that you can't hunt if there's no critters left.

 

[T.R.]

During the "dirty 30's" North American cattlemen faced tough times. My Grandad hunted elk for meat - both for his family and others. Cattle were raised and sold for much needed cash but elk were hunted for meat. Seems odd nowadays for a cattleman to feed elk meat to his family when he has prime angus in his pastures. But that's how it was 70 years ago.

Grandad ( 1886 - 1973 ) killed many elk with his 30-30 rifle and plain open sights. He walked behind his horse to get fairly close and shot the animals twice. Two moderate powered 30-30 bullets fired into the chest do more damage than just one 300 MAG bullet. Consult a ballistic chart and do the math if you disbelieve me.

Market hunting peaked in 1890's and until just before WW1. There were no rules at all. I'm certain that many animals were shot at night over bait. This is illegal in my home state. But I know an Austrian who hunts in Bulgaria for red stag. He told me that night hunts over bait are quite common in eastern Europe. Whether this is ethical or not is decided by the judiciary. Some would call this situational ethics.

Good hunting to you.

TR

 

[redneck2]

Buffalo used to common in Indiana. Gone now.

Coyote and wolves used to be common. Gone now (or coyotes at least until recently)

I grew up on a dairy farm. Didn't see my first deer on our farm until I was out of college in 1969. Now there are tons of them. Same thing with turkeys.

You gotta remember, the only job they had was to kill animals. No seasons, no regulations, and no time limits.

 

[skinewmexico]

I don't know, but I was driving between Eagle Nest and Red River, NM a few weeks ago. Saw a herd on the hillside, and I quit counting at 125.

 

[X-Rap]

Harve I agree. I lived in your neck of the woods and hear what you say about rough country. I hunted north of the Silver City area mostly but the Black Range is a hell of a place to hide and doubt if they got em all.
As far as there being big racks down there, it is just a rumor, all you others reading take heed. No big bulls in SW NM

 

[Art Eatman]

After spending the Memorial Day weekend at Whittington, my wife and I drove west and turned off at Eagle Nest to Red River.

All we saw were Harleys...

, Art

 

[Harve Curry]

X-Rap ,
As the crow flies Silver City is about 85 mile southwest of me. But to drive around takes 4+ hours or through the Gila/Black Range takes all day and 4wd. I believe it is the largest NF in the lower 48 states. If you include all the lands and forests attaching to it, Cibola NF, Apache Sitgreaves NF on the Arizona side, BLM & state lands on both sides, not to mention large deeded lands, it is bigger then Yellowstone. I think the first game laws were in the 1880's here, but the Apache Wars were going full tilt then. Plus outlaws and just plain murderers could be anywhere, so from what I've read people traveled and slept with their guns till well into the 1900's. I don't think there was much market hunting to far from towns, not more then a days ride or wagon could go, maybe twenty miles. There is a place north of Silver City known for hanging meat, name escapes me at the moment. There are unmarked and a few marked graves of people killed who ran out of luck. Those are some of the reasons I think that the Elk never were completely gone from here.

 

[hockea]

Old timers in AZ...

...referred to the native elk as 'red deer'. It is said that the elk mount hanging in the lodge at Hannagan Meadow, in Alpine AZ, is the last 'red deer'

 

[Harve Curry]

Hockea ,
Thanks, I had not heard of that. I'll have to make it a point to go there and see it.