Empty Handed Training

[DMW1116]

I’d just like to mention the break falls and rolling I did in Judo and a little Aikido were way more valuable in keeping me from getting hurt than the other techniques I learned.

 

[WrongHanded]

I’d just like to mention the break falls and rolling I did in Judo and a little Aikido were way more valuable in keeping me from getting hurt than the other techniques I learned.

Along this line, I have a thought that perhaps others can weigh in on as well.

I don't think a high level of skill is needed in a grappling art to defend yourself and get out of a bad situation. I don't think a high level of skill is required in a striking art to avoid getting hit too much and get yourself out of that situation. I think it's far harder to effectively attack someone who trying to evade your attacks and escape you, than it is to successfully attack a less skill opponent who's committed to standing their ground to fight.

Therefore, I propose a person learn enough to be able to run away, and make doing so their primary goal. Thoughts?

 

[DMW1116]

I certainly think being proficient with one’s getaway sticks (legs) is valuable. It’s also considerably more difficult to hit/contact someone who is only concerned with avoiding an attack.

 

[IlikeSA]

I have a black belt in TKD, currently study BJJ, and do defensive tactics for work. I just view myself as conscious incompetent in hand to hand fighting, though I have gone hands on multiple times for work. BJJ keeps me in check, as I meet people daily who can smash and boss me.

My BJJ gym has classes for kids up to 16, when they move to the adult fundamental classes. The fundamental classes have a mix of adults in age and gender, from 16 year old girls to 55 year old guys, with varying reasons to take the classes, from fitness to self defense to competition preparation. We get to practice with others who have different body types, to discover what works and does not. It also allows you to see what an untrained fighter would do in a grappling situation (spaz out, make multiple mistakes, expose arms and neck for joint locks/chokes, etc.) It also exposes you to different strength levels (30 year old construction worker vs 20 year old frat brother vs 19 year old female vs 45 year old accountant). Adult classes are 2-3 times a day (early morning and evenings), and membership (215 a month) let's you attend any number per week. I average 3 times a week.

Don't discount the teens, as a percentage of their peers will be (or are) the next generation of thugs, and you may go up against someone substantially similar in the streets. By the time they reach their mid 30s, the worst are gone, either prison or dead.

I train BJJ because, as mentioned I a previous posting, it allows me the option to disengage. I don't have to commit to the ground, I can choke you against the wall or standing up. I can do some joint locks standing. I can go to the ground and am comfortable knowledge-wise with what's happening there. I can go outside the art to punch, kick, palm heel strike anytime I want. It just looks better (thinking about a jury) to not be striking. BJJ has trained me to be a thinking fighter in live rolling, so I am thinking and seeing as I fight.

People what if: what if he pulls a weapon. What if he has friends? I carry weapons too. I can disengage to draw or draw while engaging. Would you rather be untrained in a fight or have some idea what's going on in that chaos?

 

[shafter]

Along this line, I have a thought that perhaps others can weigh in on as well.

I don't think a high level of skill is needed in a grappling art to defend yourself and get out of a bad situation. I don't think a high level of skill is required in a striking art to avoid getting hit too much and get yourself out of that situation. I think it's far harder to effectively attack someone who trying to evade your attacks and escape you, than it is to successfully attack a less skill opponent who's committed to standing their ground to fight.

Therefore, I propose a person learn enough to be able to run away, and make doing so their primary goal. Thoughts?

It doesn't take a high level of skill to be able to handle yourself against the untrained, but more and more criminals are training in various martial arts these days. If you run into someone stronger and more skilled you are royally screwed.

I would focus on little by little getting fitter and more skilled as time goes on. Don't have a stopping place in mind but keep trying to get a little better all the time and let the journey take you where it will. The same goes with shooting. Don't settle for "good enough" because it might not be, but don't feel like you have to acquire mastery overnight.

 

[WrongHanded]

It doesn't take a high level of skill to be able to handle yourself against the untrained, but more and more criminals are training in various martial arts these days. If you run into someone stronger and more skilled you are royally screwed.

I would focus on little by little getting fitter and more skilled as time goes on. Don't have a stopping place in mind but keep trying to get a little better all the time and let the journey take you where it will. The same goes with shooting. Don't settle for "good enough" because it might not be, but don't feel like you have to acquire mastery overnight.

My point with that is more along these lines: If you go to a gym or dojo, try asking someone to spar with you, where their goal is to get out of the building. Then see how easy or difficult it is to attack them when they're trying to flee rather than engage. It's a very different dynamic.

 

[shafter]

My point with that is more along these lines: If you go to a gym or dojo, try asking someone to spar with you, where their goal is to get out of the building. Then see how easy or difficult it is to attack them when they're trying to flee rather than engage. It's a very different dynamic.

My concern would be the only quick way to get away is to run and that would involve giving up my back. I'll take that risk if I can sprint but if we are already engaged then that would be a lot more difficult to do safely without incapacitating that attacker first even if just momentarily.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Tony Blauer's SPEAR System

 

[.38 Special]

Along this line, I have a thought that perhaps others can weigh in on as well.

I don't think a high level of skill is needed in a grappling art to defend yourself and get out of a bad situation. I don't think a high level of skill is required in a striking art to avoid getting hit too much and get yourself out of that situation. I think it's far harder to effectively attack someone who trying to evade your attacks and escape you, than it is to successfully attack a less skill opponent who's committed to standing their ground to fight.

Therefore, I propose a person learn enough to be able to run away, and make doing so their primary goal. Thoughts?

I think that's an excellent point. I have several times noted on these forums that the goal is not necessarily to transform oneself into Bruce Lee Jr. but rather to become competent in a few things - I'm a big fan of elbows, myself - in order to A) not be one of those folks who immediately freezes up in the face of physical conflict, and B) buy oneself enough space and time to either produce a weapon or get out of Dodge.

I still maintain that three months at a Krav gym is a fantastic idea for anyone concerned about personal safety and capable of moderately strenuous physical activity. It won't turn a fellow into John Wick, but it could well make a real difference in the first critical seconds of a fight.

 

[shafter]

Something that I rarely see mentioned when it comes to empty handed defense is that it's not just important to develop skills so that you can use them yourself, but to learn enough to be able to recognize when someone else is skilled. There are a lot of completely devastating techniques that will result in being choked out or having joints permanently destroyed or bones broken. These happen in seconds and you won't see them coming unless you train. A person who trains may see that technique coming and respond with a higher level of force and be able to articulate it later.

 

[.38 Special]

Something that I rarely see mentioned when it comes to empty handed defense is that it's not just important to develop skills so that you can use them yourself, but to learn enough to be able to recognize when someone else is skilled. There are a lot of completely devastating techniques that will result in being choked out or having joints permanently destroyed or bones broken. These happen in seconds and you won't see them coming unless you train. A person who trains may see that technique coming and respond with a higher level of force and be able to articulate it later.

It may even be that such training can help prevent escalation in the first place.

In a recent conversation with a retired Muay Thai pro, the gentleman mentioned two occasions (both in bars, of course) when someone had been in his face looking for trouble, and in both instances the ex-fighter just stood calmly in a relaxed guard, watching and learning and waiting for the first move. It was his belief that calm confidence in both situations encouraged the aggressor to go find something else to do.

 

[WrongHanded]

It may even be that such training can help prevent escalation in the first place.

In a recent conversation with a retired Muay Thai pro, the gentleman mentioned two occasions (both in bars, of course) when someone had been in his face looking for trouble, and in both instances the ex-fighter just stood calmly in a relaxed guard, watching and learning and waiting for the first move. It was his belief that calm confidence in both situations encouraged the aggressor to go find something else to do.

Quiet calm confidence is a powerful thing. It can certainly prevent escalation in social situations. It probably won't do much to prevent a planned attack, but it's one more tool for the toolbox.

 

[shafter]

It may even be that such training can help prevent escalation in the first place.

In a recent conversation with a retired Muay Thai pro, the gentleman mentioned two occasions (both in bars, of course) when someone had been in his face looking for trouble, and in both instances the ex-fighter just stood calmly in a relaxed guard, watching and learning and waiting for the first move. It was his belief that calm confidence in both situations encouraged the aggressor to go find something else to do.

Yes that can definitely be a factor, but my point is more along the lines of I'm already rolling around on the ground with someone. There are things someone can do that I'm not worried about but there are also things where if I see you setting that up on me that's a complete no go and may create an imminent need to use deadly force. Someone who doesn't train will never see it coming until its too late.

 

[scaatylobo]

This is kind of a follow on topic to my earlier thread about trainers being booked out for a year in advance.

I recently decided to look for "empty handed" training, specifically, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, or both. I already had some prior experience, many years ago, in Tae Kwon Do, so it was natural to gravitate that way. I quickly discovered that martial arts has become a day care center. I checked out all of the local dojos in my area, and all are primarily for children. Even the "adult" classes are 1-2 adults and 6-8 8th and 9th graders. (Nice, good kids as near as I could tell, but kids nonetheless.)

What is going on? I spoke to one instructor who put it into two categories. Child care was there bread and butter, and ever since MMA/UFC hit mainstream entertainment, most of the adults started doing that. Is this what you are seeing in your dojos as well? Is there something out there that isn't MMA that also isn't kiddie care? I seem to recall that there were always adults in the TKD classes I took in my teen years. Anyone have any suggestions on what an adult looking for real hand to hand training should gravitate toward?

The other thing I noticed is that this is expensive stuff. $2200/year at the one dojo that has any adults in the classes. (6 hrs per week of training.) Perhaps that isn't expensive compred to the $1820 I just spent at Gunsite for one week.

Call me a 'martial arts snob' but my training started in Goju Karate and I was doing that in NYC for decades.

Then onto Jeet Kune Concepts and a bit of EVERYTHING that was thrown into that.

Including Gracie Jiu Jitsu and Wing Chun too.

I am of the firm opinion [ from street education & 26 years a cop ] that CQB of any form is better than the martial arts that depend on majority of kicking to safe your bacon.

Just as in pistol combat,expect your confrontations to be no more [ often less ] than arms distance.

And hell YES to at least hitting the heavy bag a few times a week at the very least.

A good jab and a fast punch might be all it takes to disengage or win.

Not to take lightly the Mace,baton,Taser,blade,gun .

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Call me a 'martial arts snob'

You must be-I only recognized one style of martial arts in your list.

But I get it. We need to train close in. I'm already seeing it. I'm doing TKD and Hapkido. They're teaching kicking in TKD at distance that are just too close. I'm hitting the bag or my sparring partner with my shins, not my feet, because that's how close to them I'm standing. On the other hand, everything in Hapkido is standing so close to your partner that you're actually touching bodies together.

Hopefully, anything is better than nothing (and hopefully, this is all for fun and never needed anyway), and the options in my area are severely limited.

 

[ClicheBro]

I like knives. I identify them as empty handed.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Deleted.

 

[scaatylobo]

You must be-I only recognized one style of martial arts in your list.

But I get it. We need to train close in. I'm already seeing it. I'm doing TKD and Hapkido. They're teaching kicking in TKD at distance that are just too close. I'm hitting the bag or my sparring partner with my shins, not my feet, because that's how close to them I'm standing. On the other hand, everything in Hapkido is standing so close to your partner that you're actually touching bodies together.

Hopefully, anything is better than nothing (and hopefully, this is all for fun and never needed anyway), and the options in my area are severely limited.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

I am a huge fan of ANY martial art that does not rely on the kick as "THE" main source of combat/defense.

I live in NYS and we get snow & ice,that is a great reason to not lose any base [ footing ] for any reason.

As stated,boxing or hitting the bag is a great means to get excersize AND have a means to defend yourself.

And of course as they teach in Life Guard courses = "row,throw,or go" is the best means to rescue a swimmer.

That translates to the use of ANY tool to not go hands on with an attacker.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Well, that was a mixed bag. Against @FL-NC 's advice, I spent the last 6 months at a dojang where I had to commit to pay for 6 months. As predicted, it was...meh.

I went 4 nights per week for TKD, with 2 of those nights being a "double-header" with Hapkido following TKD. For the most part, I liked it. I liked the Hapkido better for two reasons: it seemed more practical and more challenging to learn, and the kids in the class were older, more committed an more disciplined. TKD offered a better fitness experience.

I saw some real benefits from TKD in regards to fitness, flexibility, etc. But even though I was told the 7pm class was "adult only" (14 and up-basically the same kids who were in the Hapkido class), what I quickly discovered was the little kids from the earlier classes would often stay and bleed into the "adult class." (And why not? The whole place was basically a day care center, in partnership with an adjacent child care facility. We would routinely have parents hanging out letting their kiddos work off all their energy before going home for the night.) It became a frustrating, ridiculous, waste of time and money. Instructors spent their time dealing with kids who didn't want to be there, kids deliberately delayed and obstructed instruction, temper tantrums, the whole nine yards. One 8 yr old girl was afraid to kick a board, so we spent an entire session trying to get her to stop crying. Then there were nights they just played dodge ball. I basically bailed on the final 3 weeks on my contract-just stopped going.

So now I'm pretty much stuck. I like what TKD had to offer and what I was getting from it-on the increasingly rare occasions that we had a full session without kid drama, but every dojang in town is like that. Since I left, I've been less motivated to keep up with my fitness routine (which amounts to an Army PT test every day.) And in the mean time, my work place has become increasingly more violent. So, I'm still looking for options has that combo of physical fitness (I was surprised at how exhausting 30 seconds of full on sparring was) and usable skill sets. I think it will probably be Krav Maga next, but, after the last 6 months, I don't have high hopes.

 

[The Night Rider]

Yeah, I looked at the only BJJ dojo in my area. They have separate kids class earlier in the day. (The TKD places do, too, but, as I said, even their "adult" classes are full of adolescents. I expect the BJJ facility to be the same.) Their pricing is about the same on a per-hour basis, but they offer about half as much "mat time" as the TKD places. The only Krav Maga dojo in town has an "adult" class with a minimum age of 13. smh.

I would add that, while I don't know anything about Krav Maga, I really don't like MMA. On the surface, it gives me "Fight Club" movie vibes and just seems to be yet another pop-culture glorification of violence. I'm sure it's a case of having your cake and eating too.

Before I say anything else I am old and I am crippled and I don't study any empty hand fighting skills because my disabilities make it almost impossible. So you can take my input for what it's worth

I don't know your age but I'm not certain that training against adolescents wouldn't be a good idea.

I took Taekwondo classes many many years ago and I got my ass beat (Sparring) by a couple of adolescents.

I don't think sparring against somebody who is younger and has more stamina and is more agile than you is a bad idea.

 

[.38 Special]

I still believe that Krav is the best bet for adult self defense. It certainly has its problems - too much dogma, not enough sparring, and in the higher belts, too many silly and unrealistic techniques - but it still comes out well ahead of "sport" fighting and "ancient Japanese arts" at least for practicality. Of course, that's assuming the Krav gym does reasonably well at keeping the kids classes away from the adult ones...

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Before I say anything else I am old and I am crippled and I don't study any empty hand fighting skills because my disabilities make it almost impossible. So you can take my input for what it's worth

I don't know your age but I'm not certain that training against adolescents wouldn't be a good idea.

I took Taekwondo classes many many years ago and I got my ass beat (Sparring) by a couple of adolescents.

I don't think sparring against somebody who is younger and has more stamina and is more agile than you is a bad idea.

It's not about even or uneven match-ups during sparring. It's about child behavior problems wasting my time and money.

But you're right. I sparred with some 15 yr old black belts who were pretty hard core.

 

[WrongHanded]

So now I'm pretty much stuck. I like what TKD had to offer and what I was getting from it-on the increasingly rare occasions that we had a full session without kid drama, but every dojang in town is like that. Since I left, I've been less motivated to keep up with my fitness routine (which amounts to an Army PT test every day.) And in the mean time, my work place has become increasingly more violent. So, I'm still looking for options has that combo of physical fitness (I was surprised at how exhausting 30 seconds of full on sparring was) and usable skill sets. I think it will probably be Krav Maga next, but, after the last 6 months, I don't have high hopes.

Ask to be released from the contract, and if you paid upfront ask to be reimbursed for the outstanding time left. If they cannot provide a structured learning environment and follow through with the training they said they would provide to the time allotments they claimed, you aren't getting what you paid for. Whether that is because the adult only class has turned into a daycare or for some other reason doesn't matter. You are a paying customer who is not getting what you are paying for.

Your workplace becoming "increasingly violent" is a problem unto itself. Not only it that an absolutely unacceptable working environment in today's America, but it's also surely not going to be solved by you learning martial arts. You need to find a new job or hold HR accountable for resolving the situation.

And for me personally, if I found my company's HR department and the Management Team unable to provide me with an environment safe and secure from physical violence, I would take that as them breaking the employer/employee agreement. I would begin looking for a new employment opportunity immediately. But in the mean time I too would break that same agreement, out of necessity, and carry a firearm in order to protect myself where they seem unable or unwilling to do so themselves. There's a reason that most companies have a zero tolerance on workplace violence. If yours does not or will not enforce it, you must remember that YOU are primarily responsible for your own safety and well-being.

Edited to add: I highlighted in bold the most important part of what I wrote. Just to be clear about it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Ask to be released from the contract, and if you paid upfront ask to be reimbursed for the outstanding time left...You are a paying customer who is not getting what you are paying for.

I totally agree with you-in principle. In this particular case, however, my contract period was up in April. I stopped going in March. I basically had to pay 1/3 of the total 6 month cost each of the first 3 months. It would have required legal action to get a refund, and, while I get that the principle is important, it just wasn't worth the hassle for me in this case. Besides, legal counsel would have cost as much as I might have been entitled to in remuneration, and I suspect an attorney would have just told me I had no case. Live and learn. It's not like I wasn't warned.

Your workplace becoming "increasingly violent" is a problem unto itself. Not only it that an absolutely unacceptable working environment in today's America, but it's also surely not going to be solved by you learning martial arts. You need to find a new job or hold HR accountable for resolving the situation.

There is no "holding HR accountable. It's basically a giant bureaucracy. I've already discussed this at length with my supervisor, and all I got was "Well, I'd sure hate to lose you. Good luck." This isn't what I signed up for, but it has just become an accepted part of the job. A sort of "comes with the territory" if you will.

I would begin looking for a new employment opportunity immediately. But in the mean time I too would break that same agreement, out of necessity, and carry a firearm in order to protect myself...

In my case, that's a Federal felony. But yeah, I'm already laying the ground work.

 

[tdbmd]

The only issue I have with BJJ is that it's great so long as you've only got one opponent at a time. If the dude's got a buddy, I don't want to find out about it while I'm laying on the ground.

I think it's a great tool to have, but I wouldn't want it to be my only form of training.

This is my concern with BJJ, so many videos seem to start with 1-2 antagonists and then when it goes to ground, many rush in, usually with boots to the head. I can certainly see the advantages of BJJ in a one on one setting but any type of group would seem to negate the positives.