European Mindset: Are they all against guns or is it just me?

[ArfinGreebly]

Cromlech

What part of southern England were you in?

I spent three years there ('69-'72) with the USAF, mostly in the Midlands and Bedfordshire. I returned several years later ('79-'83) as a volunteer (rehab/education) in East Grinstead, Brighton, and London (North, South, and West).

My daughter spent three years of her youth (age 3-6) in the same Southern places, and when she went back with her (Danish) husband to wait for his permanent residence to come through, she taught at a private school in East Grinstead. She's 30 now, with 2 kids of her own.

When I was first there, I learned much by hanging out with familes that had lived through WW II, many of whom had worked to build the RAF stations where I was housed. That and, of course, chasing the local damsels.

There is a grittiness about the British that can yet be their salvation.

It may take a catastrophe to make them reach down deep and find it again.

While I am not a native, this line of Shakespeare's John of Gaunt has always resonated with me:
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

(Being the final line of this passage:

This royal throne of kings, this sceptered isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.​

. . . from Richard II.)

No, there is no logic to it; it is entirely a matter of the heart.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, the Europeans explained themselves very well. But as has also been noted, of the Eastern Europeans I've talked to, they are all about learning to use guns, and they generally enjoy shooting when they get the chance to.

I remember talking to a girl from Norway that heard me and a friend discuss going shooting, and she thought I meant shooting people! I talked to her for a little while and offered to teach her how to shoot, and she was terrified at the concept of shooting a gun.

I've taken a couple of Croatian immigrants shooting, both of whom now are gun owners. And a friend of mine got his Czech girlfriend into shooting.

I personally bet this is more a Western European problem than an Eastern European one. But as has been noted, the Eastern Europeans saw the effects of a socialist government run amok. The Western Europeans have not. Their socialism experiments have not resulted in police states (as of yet, but it is coming, whether at the hands of their own people, or at the hands of Muslims in the future), so they fear guns.

And while we cannot class all Europeans in the same category, there are some trends which do have way too much a base of support to be ignored.

 

[Cromlech]

It sounds like you came at a comparatively good time, then.

 

[hockeybum]

well we wouldn't have this problem if:

we would have agred with Patton and invaded the Russians

then, afterwards, the world

then everyone would be American, so we'd all have guns

 

[Werewolf]

the mind set is against letting the serfs have the means to defend themselves against the King.
Yeah, the Kings are pretty much gone, but the mindset of the governing elite stays the same.

That mindset exists in the US too. Sit down and make a list of those places that are verboten to one with a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Invariably with the exception of schools and places where alcohol is the main business the list is almost completely made up of where our masters work, live or play.

IMO within the next 20 to 30 years the same attitudes towards the RKBA that exist in Europe today will exist in the USA and for many of the same reasons so many posters have already mentiones.

 

[JohnKSa]

A big part of this is the environment one grows up in.

I find it interesting to see what happens when someone brings up silencers...then it's the Americans who tend to demonstrate the mindset of the culture they've been raised in.

 

[Cosmoline]

However, this does NOT equal a more pro-RKBA stance. It only reinforces the view that guns are evil because they killed an innocent person.

It's totally unscientific, but I'm noticing more muttering on the net from Brits who are starting to realize they've created the closest thing to Orwell's nightmare that's ever existed. The British state has done what the tyrants of old could never dream of. There's literally a camera on every streetcorner of London, and pairs of eyes watching everything that you do. If you bring so much as a stick into the city you're subject to arrest and detention. I think it's starting to sink in, even through the incredibly thick British skull. I'm a firm believer that truth always wins out, even if it takes a lot of blood in the streets first.

 

[Cosmoline]

we would have agred with Patton and invaded the Russians

This is a bit OT, but I've been reading up on the Red Army lately. There's a whole batch of excellent books that have come out in the past few years based on research of archives opened up after the fall of the USSR. The time to dictate terms to Uncle Joe would have been during lend/lease negotiations in 41 or 42. By 45 when Patton was making threats the Red Army was the most powerful on Earth, and would have been more than our match even if we had convinced tired old Britain to fight them with us. They had better tanks, they had far more men on the ground in Europe, they were highly mechanized and above all they had millions of ruthless and seasoned frontoviks fresh from victory. They were also willing to soak up losses that would have turned every face in DC pale. And they had the SKS-45 in the works

 

[LAK]

Every "old Europe" person I have come across is an effeminate whiner.

In Old europe firearms were relatively unregulated. It is the New Europe socialist change agents who aquired a grip on both the "right" and "left" parties in europe following WW2 that have changed all that.

The Old Europe whiners are perhaps lamenting what they allowed to happen over a period of a few decades. How they have been deceived - or deceived themselves - along the way. As they gave up their sovereignty to a eurostate, and their "conservative" leaders sold them out along the way. There will be similar whining not too far down the road in this country when a sizable number of folk finally realize that they have been sold out as well in an identical manner.

--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[RedAlert]

PILMAN

While I admit I took this sentence out of context:

"Why do they always feel the need to get involved with our politics like they live here yet they don't know a damn thing about our country?"


You said that about the Europeans with reference to the USA.

Rather ironic, considering our present position in Iraq. We sure didn't understand their politics. If we had, things would be much better there than it is now. While we entered under the pretext of WMD, in my opinion, President Bush was determined to invade regardless of world opinion.

Yes, that statement could easily have been made by an Iraqi citizen referring to the USA.

RDF

 

[PILMAN]

Right, i'm not saying invading Iraq was the right thing but it still boggles my mind why someone living in England would care if we own guns or not?

 

[MD_Willington]

European Mindset: Are they all against guns or is it just me?

Nah, my second cousin from the UK visited us in Canada when I was 12, we went to a sporting goods store and he said he wanted to buy me a .22... but because he was a foreigner and they had some silly gun laws we had to settle on a air rifle instead. He thought he could just buy a .22 off the wall rack in the sporting goods shop in Canada.

 

[G36-UK]

why someone living in England would care if we own guns or not?

Well, there's two types of Brits (Scotland and England) that have an interest in American gun laws.

The Anti-gunners want American laws to reflect the "Progressive" laws in Britain (despite the fact that the sort of gun laws we have are about as progressive as burning a cross on somebody's lawn), and support anti-gunners in America.

The pro-gun people* may see American laws as good examples of fairly reasonable laws, and would support Americans like you guys in the hope that your common sense will someday become an export.

*I'm pro-gun, but not an owner, so this part is pretty much a guess.

 

[Fosbery]

Indeed Cosmoline. I have also noticed a number of people realising that Britain is not at all dissimilar to that depicted in 1984. THey're also becoming more pro-gun. Stories of innocent people being powerless to defend themselves against vandals and thugs and even animal rights terrorists (who do all sorts of nasty things to anyone involved in animal testing). The police, they are realising, do absolutely nothing about all this and they're see that we need to take responsibility for ourselves and that guns are the preferable way to do this. Also, the realisation that gun control is a failure (in its stated aim of reducing crime, gun crime, murder etc) is setting in. However, this is only amongst a few of the people I know and I don't think it's respresentetive of the British public who, in many cases, are crying otu for yet more Orwellian and opressive measures.


I was in my local town at the weekend and I noticed the CCTV cameras. I knew they must be there but I'd never really looked for them. They're 'disguised' as streetlights. They are different to streetlights, so you can easily tell the difference if you look, but if you were just out shopping you'd never notice they were there. The cameras are contained in the 'bulb' of the streetlight, and it's blacked out so that you can't see which way it's pointing (this also protects it from thrown items presumably). THere is a band of downward pointing spikes about 2/3rds of the way up to prevent people climbing up there. They are placed just like streetlights, at the roadside edge of the pavement, and there is one about every 50 meters on one side of the road (none on the other side).

My village has two government CCTV cameras as far as I know. Again, they look much liek streetlights. One watches over a small seating area/public garden, the other watches the village center.

The nearest train station has numerous cameras, and every shop will have a camera inside (these are privately owned, but the police will take the tapes as evidence should a crime be comitted nearby).

In addition to police, my town also has 'street warden' patrols. These are civillians who work as street wardens (part time I think) and they're supposed to deal with low-leverl crime like littering, vandalism etc, and generally support the police. They can hand out on-the-spot fines for various things. They don't have the power of arrest that police have, but they can make a citizen's arrest like anyone else.

The phrase 'red shirts' comes to mind. Stormtroopers comes soon after.

I predict (or rather, guarantee) that their powers will grow and grow until they're not at all disimmilar to the above organisations.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

This is truly unsettling.

As I've said before, I believe the problems which arise from Europe's social systems failing (when the governments there are unable to take care of their baby boomers), the influx of Muslim immigrants (many of whom are in your homelands only for work and civil benefits, and not to "be" English, French, etc.) and the militarization of Europe sure to happen when the US's power wains and China and India don't want to hold your bags will result in one of three options.

#1. Muslims take over. Eurabia. The Muslims impose their culture and beliefs on you, and Jews and Christians run, living secret lives in a country that hates them.

#2. Total disaster. A free for all. The EU collapses, and the countries themselves collapse, fighting amongst themselves when the social systems don't work.

#3. The collapse of social systems, and the rise of Muslim violence results in massive crackdowns. Fascism takes hold, but not just against the Muslims. Against everyone. Soon, with modern technology everything you do is monitored and scrutinized. The EU is powerfull enough to make local elections more or less irrelevant, you simply get your pick of masters. And although the social systems don't do what they promise, the bureacrats in Belgium have all the guns, so what are you gonna do about it?

While I think #1 is most likely in the long run, #2 does give hope of regaining self-reliance, and the best new start from ground up.

But #3, ah #3. That is what worries me. If the EU holds together, and the principle of "who has the guns, wins" in this case would be disastrous. The Muslim problem is gone, but at the point of a gun. And no one is really safe. The Muslims would still strike from the Middle East in revenge. And your freedoms would be gone, for nothing.

 

[ArmedBear]

The EU is powerfull enough to make local elections more or less irrelevant

That's already a done deal.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

All the risk taking, adventurist Europeans immagrated to the US and left the doctile, fearful ones in Europe. Up untill 75 years ago the trip to the US was not for the faint of heart. And a lot of them learned to use a gun once they got here. The one thing I find interesting is twice in the last century Europe dragged the US into wars the Europeans started and the US did not want anthing to with untill we were attacked. Then when we straighten things up, they start saying we are bad people again. In my opinion it is really too bad an asteroid doesn't hit everything east of the the Atlantic Ocean to the western shores of the Pacicfic Ocean to both Poles. Then we could get on with our lives without having to listen to it.

 

[anotherKevin]

European ignorance of US culture

I recall a Euro asking if Montana was crowded, on one forum.

Euro's like to state as fact that Americans are ignorant, and uncultured, yet take Hollywood and Baywatch as absolute tangible fact. They don't know the differences between the states, or even how many states there are. Ask a Euro - chances are the answer will be 51, for some strange reason.

Having grown up a Euro I can say that the nanny socialist propoganda is indoctrinated in toddlers, the belief that the government knows best is the underlying foundation.

They simply don't get freedom, having never recieved more than was permitted. Firearms are such a powerful statement of peering with government entities, putting us on an equalized footing, that it blows their mind.

Conversely - you should ask them if there was ever a teensy little piece of evidence that maybe, just maybe, the police wouldn't be able to protect them in time ...

 

[Ramon67]

Europe has lost its nerve.

It's pathetic. And to think our forefathers evolved from them.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

There have been many good points brought out here, I think mordechaianiliewicz and Gaucho Gringo where excellent points. The topic of Americans being ignorant of world events may have some merit, but keep in mind I can go get in my car and drive 500 miles in any direction and still be in the United States and if I go east or west I can go a 1,000 miles and still be in the USA, do that in Europe and you will have passed through three different countries and a couple of languages. Also I have found that many Europeans are not any more informed as to would events as Americans they are just more opinionated about them, facts many time do not matter.

I also do not see our country going the same route a our European cousins on firearm laws, while we should be vigilant, we have made great strides over the last 30 years we are better off today then we were then. Yes we have had some set backs and we all want them reversed but our gains have been greater and just look at the last election, while we lost some ground on pro-gun officials most new Democrats claimed they were pro gun.

One last point is that while we in the USA might not be perfect we are the most free people, living in the oldest nation on the face of Gods green earth. Our government is the oldest government on earth nearly four time older then most of Europe.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Most European countries were kingdoms in the first place, going back hundreds and hundreds of years. And as such, peasants were not allowed to be armed, as this was a danger to the king. This mindset has been ingrained into their consciousness for several centuries. Plus, they did not have a frontier to deal with. This makes the United States unique in the need, and now desire for firearms. So yes, for most Europeans it is an alien thought to actually want to have firearms, especially handguns. It's just not part of most of their thinking. It doesn't make them weird, and it doesn't make them sheep. It's simply the way they've lived their lives over the centuries differently from the people who came here.

I have a friend in socialist Sweden who will tell you all day he is just as free as we are, no matter what you tell him. We have also discussed the gun issue and he says folks in Sweden don't need to carry guns. He says our society here that requires us to have to carry guns is a product of our making.
That is his perspective, and our view of firearms is our perspective. And you know what? He's my friend, and I'll defend his right to think that. He's certainly not pathetic, and Europeans aren't pathetic either. They're just a different culture.

 

[Ramon67]

Almost everything comes down to two things:

GUNS and TEXAS.

 

[Old Dog]

Returning to this thread, and noticed that only a few responded to the actual question, "are they all against guns, or is it just me?" Essentially, it seems as though most posters are simply chiming in with their views on the overall European mindset -- as they see it -- regarding welfare programs (socialism), the "docility" of the average European, revisionist views of European history post-1945, the perceived "lack of freedom" in most European countries, etc., ad nauseum ...

Again -- I reiterate: how many of you have actually lived in European countries for a time and spent time with the average citizen, discussing issues relating to firearms ownership, firearms as a guarantor of personal freedoms and civil rights, firearms as weapons to protect against a government becoming tyrannical, etc.?

I have discussed these issues with many, many citizens of European countries. I suspect many of you would be most surprised if you ever engaged in face-to-face discourse with some of the "Euro-wimps" and "Euro-eunichs" you so casually denigrate ...

I noted earlier than Americans often struck me as far more insular and xenophobic than the average European ... The quality of many posts serves only to confirm this for me ...

I have a friend in socialist Sweden who will tell you all day he is just as free as we are, no matter what you tell him. We have also discussed the gun issue and he says folks in Sweden don't need to carry guns. He says our society here that requires us to have to carry guns is a product of our making.

And he's not really wrong ... As Panthera Tigris properly notes, it's simply a different culture. Some of these countries do tend to suffer far, far less violent crime than ours. Does this mean I should criticize the citizens of those countries for having totally different attitudes about firearms and freedoms than we in the USA do? Does this mean that the citizens of those countries do not value their civil rights and freedoms as much as we Americans do? I think not.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I'm not saying you are wrong, in part or in whole. But the reason why I digressed and most of the people here digressed is because most of us believe we cannot explain European disapproval of firearms whithout throwing in our .02 cents about their culture.

Might some of our views be misplaced. Yeah, you betcha.

I will tell you right now, my exposure to Europe is the handfull of Europeans I have known, and books I've read. But, the opinions I have formed based upon that experience I believe are not without merit.

By the way, for my Eastern Europe theory, Oleg is from Eastern Europe.

Oleg, if you see this, is there a certain truth in it?

 

[The Scandinavian]

European Mindset: Are they all against guns or is it just me?

Maybe it's just you? Gun ownership is widespread here in Finland. Shooting sports, hunting and collecting are quite popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland


You need to be very careful about making broad assumptions