Ever wear out a pistol? Tell us about it.

[HankB]

So all things being pretty close to equal, why does the 357SIG batter, and the +P+ 9mm not?

If pressure is equal, the .40 (or .357 SIG) will stress a weapon more than a 9mm simply because the diameter is larger - the total force applied to the breech face goes up as the product of pounds per square inch and the number of square inches. The .40 and .357 Sig case heads have more cross sectional area, so at a given pressure, they apply more force to the breech face.

 

[AK103K]

The .40 and .357 Sig case heads have more cross sectional area, so at a given pressure, they apply more force to the breech face.

Arent they all pretty close in size? 0.424 (.40/357SIG) vs 0.394(9mm). 0.03" is going to make that much of a difference?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It was the locking block hitting the slide, not the barrel.

Actually, I was asking the question why it occured in one, and why it didnt in the other. The 357SIG, and apparently the .40 as well, do, the +P+ 9mm's dont. All are 40,000 psi rounds.

In the guns I'm familiar with THAT HAVE A LOCKING BLOCK, the locking block is either a part of the barrel assembly (as in a Beretta 92) or part of the frame, as in a SIG, Glock, or BHP.

In none of those cases do the slide and the locking block ever make contact? What have I misunderstood about the comment above?

 

[xjsnake]

I have a old Hopkins and Allen revolver (BP) that is "worn out" but given enough $ it could be returned to shooting shape.

Sadly I have fired zero rounds from it (nor has my father) but it was passed down to me from my him.

My hope is to eventually find the $ so that he can shoot it once safely

 

[AK103K]

If you look at the front corners of the locking block here, you can see where its been hitting the underside of the slide.....



If you look just forward of the ejection port, you can see two shiny spots on the slide where the locking block has been impacting it.



That gun is the 9mm in the link I provided above in post 26. Thats the extent of the damage from over 70,000 rounds at that point.


This was a pic of the underside of my 31's slide.



Sorry its not real clear, but if you look close, you can see were the damage is into the metal, compared to the 17's above, which is simply finish wear. When this pic was taken, it was soon after I noticed what was gong on, and Id posted it to ask if anyone knew what was going on. Less than a 1000 rounds at that point. The way first noticed it was, I cut my finger on inside edge where the metal had been peened out while cleaning.

Unfortunately, I never got a pic before I got rid of it. The damage was a good bit more, and I had to file the sharp edges on the inside off smooth at one point.

 

[JohnKSa]

I had a slightly different experience with my Glock 31. It was battering itself to death, and with not all that many rounds through it, about a couple of thousand 357SIG's.

The underside of the slide was peening heavily, from impact from the locking block. I was told by people who had .40's, that it was common, and would only go so far, and then stop. Mine didnt appear to be stopping, and just getting worse.

There's something I don't understand about the .357SIG. Beretta refused to come out with a .357SIG version of the 92 pistols citing excessive slide velocity as the reason. They had no such qualms about introducing a .40 version as the 96. I've messed around with the numbers and I can't see that the .357SIG slide velocity is significantly higher than .40S&W slide velocity. But Beretta was clearly on to something--it seems farly obvious that the .357SIG is harder on guns than the .40 is.

But it is a "general" truth.

In a given caliber, all else (or nearly all else) being equal (or nearly equal), increasing pressure will tend to increase velocity. Across different calibers, throwing in different powder types and other variables, it's going to be very difficult to make an accurate comment about pressure and velocity being directly related.

 

[GLOOB]

It was the locking block hitting the slide, not the barrel.

I described it as the barrel hitting the locking block. In a Glock, the locking block is there to do two things. Firstly, the lug on the bottom of the barrel deflects off of the locking block, pulling the barrel down and unlocking it. And secondly, the locking block arrests the rearward movement of the barrel after the barrel has unlocked. IOW, the barrel hits the locking block.

When the barrel hits the locking block hard (read FAST) enough, the frame bends and torques enough to momentarily push the front tip of the locking block against the bottom of the slide. The slide is still moving. This is what causes the peening of the bottom of the slide.

IOW, the peening happens when slide velocity is high, due to the barrel hitting the locking block harder.

I had more +P+ through the 17, and that was also the question, why the 9mm gun shooting +P+ didnt show the same wear as the 357SIG or .40s.

How do you explain that?

The 357 SIG and 40SW shoot bullets with higher momentum, enough said. Even if the 357 SIG is only 100 fps faster at a given bullet weight, it's more. There's just a point where it's enough to cause the locking block to push against the slide. It makes sense that the 357 SIG could cause more peening than the 40SW, because the mass of a Glock 357 SIG barrel is significantly greater than that of the 40SW barrel, even though the total mass of slide+barrel is almost the same. IOW, even if the momentum of the slide+barrel is the same or even slightly lower in the 357 SIG, the barrel can still have more momentum that must be stopped by the locking block.

There's something I don't understand about the .357SIG. Beretta refused to come out with a .357SIG version of the 92 pistols citing excessive slide velocity as the reason. They had no such qualms about introducing a .40 version as the 96. I've messed around with the numbers and I can't see that the .357SIG slide velocity is significantly higher than .40S&W slide velocity. But Beretta was clearly on to something--it seems farly obvious that the .357SIG is harder on guns than the .40 is.

Idle conjecture warning:
For one thing, 40SW SAAMI max pressure is 35k psi. The 357 SIG is 40k psi. So even though the 357 is tossing lighter bullets, the maximum momentum is still going to be just slightly higher, maybe? I don't know. I have never really looked at 357 SIG reloading data.

Also, a side effect of being overbore (and using slower powders) means the 357 SIG has more muzzle blast. Muzzle blast adds a little to recoil. Even though the mass of the powder's end products is minimal, the peak escape velocity of the gases just behind the bullet is much higher than the muzzle velocity of the bullet. So it has some little effect.

Also, higher velocity means the transfer of momentum occurs in a shorter timeframe. The peak stresses on certain parts would be just slightly higher. I'm not sure how the 92 operates, exactly... and uh, speaking of which, doesn't the 92 have a weird locking mechanism with a sorta fixed-ish barrel? Is the 92 even recoil-operated? That might be the reason, right there.

 

[tarosean]

I'm not sure how the 92 operates, exactly... and uh, speaking of which, doesn't the 92 have a weird locking mechanism with a sorta fixed-ish barrel? Is the 92 even recoil-operated?

92 is considered Short-Recoil Operated. The barrel only moves laterally.

locked position.

unlocked

in the gun

 

[Voodoochile]

I have a 73 year old Colt M1911A1 that only had the springs replaced in it.
Well worn for sure "empty with hammer down & it will rattle when shaken" but not totally worn out "still holds about a 2-3 inch group benched at 25 yards" & from 1991 till 2002 it was my carry piece.

Hmmm if it wasn't for the fact that the previous owner before me decided to remove it's original park & blue it I would just retire her & place her in a case, maybe I should.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There's something I don't understand about the .357SIG. Beretta refused to come out with a .357SIG version of the 92 pistols citing excessive slide velocity as the reason. They had no such qualms about introducing a .40 version as the 96. I've messed around with the numbers and I can't see that the .357SIG slide velocity is significantly higher than .40S&W slide velocity. But Beretta was clearly on to something--it seems farly obvious that the .357SIG is harder on guns than the .40 is.

As I noted, either in this discussion or another here on the forum, the NCHP recently returned all of the their S&W M&P Pros in .357 SIG because of problems with THOSE guns. They've gone to SIG 226s in .357 SIG. S&W sent a number of engineers and technician down, the NCHP sent guns to S&W, etc., in an effort to find a solution -- and it just wasn't there. The NCHP wanted .357 SIG because their testing showed it better against auto windshields, etc., and they weren't wlling to move back to .40 M&PS. In discussions with other agencies, they had heard of some problems with some Glocks shooting .357 SIG, too. None of these problems are necesarily wide spread (i.e., experienced widely), but none of the NCHP guns were shot all that much -- but when the upper level managers started having problem while qualifying with their S&W's (about the only time they fired their guns) that really got their attention.

 

[AK103K]

I had 5 SIG's in 357SIG, and never had an issue with any of them. They just seemed to gobble it up.

Makes you wonder what SIG knows that the others dont?

 

[Rinspeed]

Makes you wonder what SIG knows that the others dont?

I would say it might having to do with them coming up with the cartridge and not being in a rush just to convert a 9mm pistol to .357. If you think about it though you very rarely hear about people that have 30, 40 or 50K rounds through a .357.

 

[thecarfarmer]

I have a Ruger Standard that might be worn out.

I replaced the extractor hook because after a whole bunch of bricks (plus a whole LOT of bricks in the first fifty-three years of its life - judging by how much crud was in it when I bought it), the hook had rounded over. It finally started to not cleanly extract or eject spent brass

I also replaced all the springs as maintenance and got an extended mag release at the same time.

Still stovepipes, so have put everything back except the extractor hook, and am going to hope that the gun isn't worn out.

Bill

 

[hAkron]

I try to wear a gun every time I go out.

 

[Kiln]

I have a Ruger Standard that might be worn out.

I replaced the extractor hook because after a whole bunch of bricks (plus a whole LOT of bricks in the first fifty-three years of its life - judging by how much crud was in it when I bought it), the hook had rounded over. It finally started to not cleanly extract or eject spent brass

I also replaced all the springs as maintenance and got an extended mag release at the same time.

Still stovepipes, so have put everything back except the extractor hook, and am going to hope that the gun isn't worn out.

Bill

It takes a lot of ammo to wear out the Ruger Standard (Now MK series) pistols. Mine has over 10,000 rounds through it and it's still running great.

The only guns I've personally worn out have been the Phoenix HP22a (frame crack at 3,500+ rounds) and a Leinad .410 derringer that I fired and dry fired several hundred rounds through. The sear wore out and it was dangerous until I replaced the hammer.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I've never "worn out" a pistol or any handgun. But what is "worn out?" A revolver with thousands of hot loads through it can get out of time, but this can be repaired. It can have its frame stretched, but even then (up to a point, to buy it some more time) the cylinder can be shimmed. Cylinders that have the locking notches peened out or ratchet teeth damaged can be replaced, though at a cost rivaling that of a new gun, as can a barrel with eroded or shot-out rifling. If a pistol frame cracks, obviously the gun is done, and a broken slide may rival the cost of a whole new gun, but worn out barrels can be easily replaced, as can other small parts.