EVERY case is getting stuck in sizing die (Lee 1000 Progressive)

[ZeSpectre]

777funk, I mean no insult or snark when I give you the following advice. I do so purely as a safety concern.

1) STOP RELOADING RIGHT NOW

2) GO DO SOME RESEARCH; OR FIND AN EXPERIENCED RE-LOADER IN YOUR AREA WHO WILL GUIDE YOU.

It is starkly apparent that you do not have the full education in reloading that is necessary to do so safely and the difference between an excellent round and a small hand-grenade is a very tiny one. Again, I am not trying to be snarky towards you, I am trying to get you to stop so that you don't continue to risk injury. Reloading is not rocket science, but the physics involved are notoriously and seriously unforgiving of ignorance.

 

[gamestalker]

Even though it has already been said, STOP ! STOP! STOP! and then go by a good quality instructional reloading book, ABC's of reloading, Speer, or Lyman are all good sources. Then read the section about reloading bottle neck cases. You are going to get hurt if you fail to reload according to proper procedure. A high powered cartridge, such as the .223 produces upward of 50,000 psi under normal conditions and can dubdle or tripple those pressures if done incorrectly.
You need to properly lube the case, I'm suprised you haven't had to buy a stuck case remover as yet? When resizing rifle cases you need to apply a thin film of case lube to the inside and outside of the neck and the case body below the shoulder. Do not put any lube on the shoulder or you'll end up with lube dents. And if you use to much lube you'll also get lube dents.

GS

 

[777funk]

ZeSepctre,
Point taken. I think the most dangerous thing about reloading is over/undercharging. I've already weighed about 25 charges and they average 24.2 grains which is considered light/medium for H335 or WC844 and SS109 in LC brass I have the actual mil data on that load and I believe it's 26.1 grains of 844 and 2.26" OAL.

Now as far as the cases getting stuck, I realize I'm new to bullet reloading (have to be new at some point - but I have done shotgun), but that said I was just asking was should it really be this hard? It seems like something is wrong with the die. But I will see on Monday or whenever my case lube makes it. And I knew most people lube their brass. I figured I'd try things I had around (motor oil, parafin, etc) since I just got this in and couldn't help but try it I was of course little anxious to see how it works. I haven't actually been making loads yet but I did finish 2 (couldn't help it) that I felt turned out (checked powder charge, inspected priming, shell condition, and OAL).

As far as safety, I am a little concerned about a primer going off by getting trapped or smashed if the press malfunctions. That's a real concern.

But as far as load data, I've done my homework. Point definitely taken there. I know the usual basics of reloading (been reading and from other shooters I've talked to). Most people do the same basic stuff which includes tumbling and lube I realize. But the question of this thread was should it really be this hard without lube or with other types of lube.

I realize reloading can be dangerous. If there are other critical areas to watch besides:
1. Load data
2. Over/under charging and case quality (no splits etc)
3. Primer safety

Please let me know.

And if there are any tips on keep primers from going off, I'm interested in this as well. I had one go off... or should I say many years back as a dumb 14 year old kid I decided to see if I could set a shotgun primer off by smashing it with a hammer on the concrete (picture little specs of primer and powder at high rates of speed), and needless to say that makes me very nervous about one going off in a press near my face. I definitely wear safety glasses when reloading. I've thought of taking that a step further and putting a plexiglas sheild between the reloader and the operator. I can picture a stray primer eventually getting trapped in moving parts and going boom. I saw a 13 part series of very good video tutorials by a guy using a Dillon 650 and he mentioned having a primer go off and it ignited a bunch more in his tray. Scary. So tips appreciated there!

RE: Gamestalker, Do you know why lubing the case neck creates dents? Again this is from no experience there. Also, as far as the stuck case remover, I see Lee will fix it for $4 but it really isn't hard, just loosen the decaping/sizing pin collet nut (1/2" wrench), take the entire die out of the press and let it rest on the lock nut in a vice and using a punch and hammer hit the pin until the case pops out. It's a pain in the butt (especially after doing it 20 times in my case trying various household lubes yesterday), but it just takes about 5-10 good hits to the top of the decapper and the shell comes out. Then you just use a tubing/pipe cutter for copper tubing and cut the brass in half to get out your decaping/interior sizing pin (which won't come out since the bottleneck is obviously resized smaller than the pin).

Seems like someone here or elsewhere said use cooking spray oil as lube? I read some place carbide dies can work without lube?

 

[NELSONs02]

How did I know you were reloading 223?

 

[floydster]

And the BEAT goes on!!!

Smokeyloads

 

[thump_rrr]

ZeSepctre,
Point taken. I think the most dangerous thing about reloading is over/undercharging. I've already weighed about 25 charges and they average 24.2 grains which is considered light/medium for H335 or WC844 and SS109 in LC brass I have the actual mil data on that load and I believe it's 26.1 grains of 844 and 2.26" OAL.

Now as far as the cases getting stuck, I realize I'm new to bullet reloading (have to be new at some point - but I have done shotgun), but that said I was just asking was should it really be this hard? It seems like something is wrong with the die. But I will see on Monday or whenever my case lube makes it. And I knew most people lube their brass. I figured I'd try things I had around (motor oil, parafin, etc) since I just got this in and couldn't help but try it I was of course little anxious to see how it works. I haven't actually been making loads yet but I did finish 2 just that I felt turned out (checked powder charge, inspected priming, and OAL).

As far as safety, I am a little concerned about a primer going off by getting trapped or smashed if the press malfunctions. That's a real concern.

But as far as load data, I've done my homework. Point definitely taken there. I know the usual basics of reloading (been reading and from other shooters I've talked to). Most people do the same basic stuff which includes tumbling and lube I realize. But the question of this thread was should it really be this hard without lube or with other types of lube.

I realize reloading can be dangerous. If there are other critical areas to watch besides:
1. Load data
2. Over/under charging and case quality (no splits etc)
3. Primer safety

Please let me know.

And if there are any tips on keep primers from going off, I'm interested in this as well. I had one go off... or should I say many years back as a dumb 14 year old kid I decided to see if I could set a shotgun primer off by smashing it with a hammer on the concrete, and needless to say that makes me very nervous about one going off in a press near my face. I definitely wear safety glasses when reloading. I've thought of taking that a step further and putting a plexiglas sheild between the reloader and the operator. I can picture a stray primer eventually getting trapped in moving parts and going boom. I saw a 13 part series of very good video tutorials by a guy using a Dillon 650 and he mentioned having a primer go off and it ignited a bunch more in his tray. Scary. So tips appreciated there!

RE: Gamestalker, Do you know why lubing the case neck creates dents? Again this is from no experience there. Also, as far as the stuck case remover, I see Lee will fix it for $4 but it really isn't hard, just loosen the decaping/sizing pin collet nut (1/2" wrench), take the entire die out of the press and let it rest on the lock nut in a vice and using a punch and hammer hit the pin until the case pops out. It's a pain in the butt (especially after doing it 20 times in my case trying various household lubes yesterday), but it just takes about 5-10 good hits to the top of the decapper and the shell comes out. Then you just use a tubing/pipe cutter for copper tubing and cut the brass in half to get out your decaping/interior sizing pin (which won't come out since the bottleneck is obviously resized smaller than the pin).

Seems like someone here or elsewhere said use cooking spray oil as lube? I read some place carbide dies can work without lube?

The reason lube dents the case neck is simple hydraulics.
You cannot compress a liquid so any lube stuck on the shoulder will push the case in.
If you use lube sparingly below the shoulder junction you will see how smooth the operation will go.

Where do you live that there is no place to buy any suitable lube locally?
The easiest to find is mink oil which can be found at almost any shoe store, wally world etc.

 

[777funk]

Where do you live that there is no place to buy any suitable lube locally?
The easiest to find is mink oil which can be found at almost any shoe store, wally world etc.

Well lets just say you can't order a pizza here. But you can shoot, hunt and fish! I'd take that over an ordered pizza most days lol. There aren't any reloading supplies anywhere local that I know of. I have to order just about everything that isn't at Walmart (not in town either) for any of my hobbies. I didn't realize Wally world has mink oil. I'll pick some up over the weekend.


OFF Topic: but where is the quote button? I had to hand code this quote to get a quote to work. Curious where quote is at. Maybe it's my browser that's the problem (firefox). All I have for buttons is just Quick Reply.

 

[thump_rrr]

Well lets just say you can't order a pizza here. But you can shoot, hunt and fish! I'd take that over an ordered pizza most days lol. There aren't any reloading supplies anywhere local that I know of. I have to order just about everything that isn't at Walmart (not in town either) for any of my hobbies. I didn't realize Wally world has mink oil. I'll pick some up over the weekend.


OFF Topic: but where is the quote button? I had to hand code this quote to get a quote to work. Curious where quote is at. Maybe it's my browser that's the problem (firefox). All I have for buttons is just Quick Reply.

When you hit reply there is a "quote message in reply" box under the text box.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/KIWI-Mink-Oil-2.625-oz/21908012

 

[BSA1]

777funk,

Other important things to check for is matching the correct bullet weight with the proper powder charge, the correct bullet seating depth, the proper amount of crimp to keep the bullet from seating back to far in the case when it feeds into the chamber and excessive crimp both which will drive the pressures up.

Your insistence for not wanting to use the correct case lube seems consistent with your lack of knowledge of cartridge reloading. Until you are willing to heed the excellent advice given to you so far I don't mind not being on the same shooting range as you.

 

[777funk]

777funk,

Other important things to check for is matching the correct bullet weight with the proper powder charge, the correct bullet seating depth, the proper amount of crimp to keep the bullet from seating back to far in the case when it feeds into the chamber and excessive crimp both which will drive the pressures up.

Your insistence for not wanting to use the correct case lube seems consistent with your lack of knowledge of cartridge reloading. Until you are willing to heed the excellent advice given to you so far I don't mind not being on the same shooting range as you.

BSA1, there was no 'insistence for not wanting to use the correct case lube'. I said I had ordered case lube (from Lee). I was merely asking if it was normal for it to be almost impossible to size without lube (as in on the verge of breaking something during sizing). The cases litterally get stuck almost in all attempts. I think I got maybe 2 or 3 out of 20 or so that didn't get stuck and I felt lucky with those. I was just asking if this is normal, that's all. If not, I want to find out what I'm doing or using that's wrong. There has been no insistence to not use lube.

You learn by reading, trying, then asking others. Common sense counts too and I think quite a bit when it involves something potentially very dangerous like reloading. I'm trying to do what I can there. I'm reloading because I want more control over what I shoot and it seems like you can get a good load for about 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of a good load otherwise.

 

[Meta]

It's been said here in different ways, but I'll say it another way. The fact that you were unaware of the absolute necessity of using case lube for sizing bottle neck cases makes it an almost certainty that you do not grasp the many other steps of reloading, some of which can each cause serious injury if done improperly. Not trying to be harsh, but if case lube requirements were this mysterious to you after sticking 20 cases, then you really need to reconsider flying solo before you get your head around all the other things you don't understand sufficiently to proceed safely. It's far more complicated than just what bullet you're using and how much powder to put in the case. Headspace? Bullet setback? Seating depth? Excessive pressure signs? Case head separation? Neck tension? The list goes on.

 

[USSR]

I was merely asking if it was normal for it to be almost impossible to size without lube (as in on the verge of breaking something during sizing). The cases litterally get stuck almost in all attempts. I think I got maybe 2 or 3 out of 20 or so that didn't get stuck and I felt lucky with those. I was just asking if this is normal, that's all. If not, I want to find out what I'm doing or using that's wrong. There has been no insistence to not use lube.

777funk,

Is it "normal" to put gas in your car and expect to drive it somewhere? It is much more than normal, it is a requirement. I agree with the others, stop what you are doing until you educate yourself about reloading practices.

Don

 

[beatledog7]

Funk, it is perfectly normal to be unable to successfully size bottleneck brass without lube. I side with others in noting that if you had done any study of the reloading process before you dove into it, you would have known that.

Reloading is not hard, but it does pose risks if done improperly. You clearly started doing it while you lacked the basic understanding of how to do it properly, and you've resisted taking advice from the very experienced folks here. I inferred from your posts that you are more interested in loading fast and cheap than in loading safe.

Please stop reloading. Stop now. Learn the basics. Gain some understanding of all the principles involved and the why's of the process. Then start over.

 

[Trent]

The only cases you can size without lube are straight walled cases with carbide dies.

ALL bottleneck cases need lube.

Also, get a Sierra reloading book and read it. Don't just flip past all of the stuff about how to load ammo, and go straight to how much powder to dump in to a case.

 

[777funk]

Funk, it is perfectly normal to be unable to successfully size bottleneck brass without lube. I side with others in noting that if you had done any study of the reloading process before you dove into it, you would have known that.

Reloading is not hard, but it does pose risks if done improperly. You clearly started doing it while you lacked the basic understanding of how to do it properly, and you've resisted taking advice from the very experienced folks here. I inferred from your posts that you are more interested in loading fast and cheap than in loading safe.

Please stop reloading. Stop now. Learn the basics. Gain some understanding of all the principles involved and the why's of the process. Then start over.

No resistance here. I just asked about the binding, I wanted to know if there was something wrong with my dies or how they were set. And even the first case was lubed (30 wt oil obviously not proper lube - I've known about Imperial wax since before I ordered anything... but I had to test after putting this thing together and I was surprised to see that without the proper lube it was a No Go). I'm 100% open to advice. That's why I asked.

 

[beatledog7]

I was surprised to see that without the proper lube it was a No Go

Proves the point we've all been trying to make.

 

[777funk]

Proves the point we've all been trying to make.

Thank you to all and I appreciate the insight. I'll try the lube and if I have more problems I'll mention it.

 

[gamestalker]

I hope that after 20 unlubed cases, and all the hammering needed to remove stuck cases, that you haven't damaged the sizing die? Resizig dies are a precision piece of equipment.

GS

 

[readyeddy]

Also make sure you lube inside the case neck. Either spray the whole batch or apply inside the case neck with a Q-Tip.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

I will be amazed if the die doesn't have galded brass chunks stuck all over the inside, and leave big hairy scratches on every case from now on!

That can be fixed, but we will leave out how until you need to know how to do it.

rc

 

[jcwit]

Alternatives to commerical case sizing lubes.

Case Sizing Lubricants

One of the advantages of using sprayed on lanolin as a case lube is that, in the quantities used, any residual lube has no effect on powder or primers.

Spray Lube
The spray-on case lubes are probably the best thing to happen to reloading in years. You can make your own spray case sizing lube in bulk by mixing liquid lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol. (While you can (kind of) use 91% isopropyl alcohol, its higher water content causes the lanolin to settle out and it must be shaken frequently during use.

NOTE: The more common 70% isopropyl "rubbing alcohol" will not work at all as its water content is much to high, nor will
denatured alcohol. work. You need to use pure liquid lanolin as the fatty solids in anhydrous lanolin will settle out in the alcohol

Liquid lanolin, which is a refined lanolin oil with the solid fats removed (the reason why solid anhydrous lanolin doesn't work well in this application) is available from health food stores and sources specializing in ingredients for cosmetics. You want to get pure liquid lanolin without additives. Online sources include VitaGlo (http://www.vitaglo.com/7730.html) or try "Amazon.com" for other suppliers.

I just recently discovered that my local Safeway store carries 99 percent isopropyl in their drug/cosmetic isle for about $2.50 for a 16 ounce bottle. Ninety-nine percent isopropyl alcohol is also available from many large paint stores (used for some finishes), some electronics stores (it's used for cleaning electronics) or local industrial chemical suppliers.

A solution of 1 part liquid lanolin and 4 to 5 parts parts 99 percent isopropyl alcohol (4 oz of liquid lanolin to16 - 20 oz of isopropyl) works well. When mixing you may find that the lanolin mixes better if you warm both the alcohol and lanolin in a bath of warm water to about 105 - 110 degrees F before mixing. DO NOT WARM EITHER OF THEM OVER AN OPEN FLAME! Once the solutions are warm, pour together, mix thoroughly, allow the mix to cool (mix occasionally as it cools) and store in an air tight container to prevent water from being absorbed by the isopropyl.

For a spray bottle you can use an old commercial spray lube bottle or an old pump hair spray bottle that has been thoroughly cleaned. To apply the lube, spread the cases in a single layer on a clean surface like an oven tray (those disposable aluminum oven liner trays are great and prevent the wrath of your chef when it is discovered that the cookie trays were used) and lightly and evenly spray the cases. Allow the cases to sit for a couple of minutes, roll the cases around and lightly spray again. Wait until the alcohol has evaporated (about 5 minutes) and start sizing. Properly lubed cases will have a slightly greasy feel to them without feeling slimy.

Another neat idea for spraying the cases is to put them in a plastic bag, spray, and then mix the cases, dump out on some newspaper, and let dry. Less messy than putting the cases on an oven tray and less likely to get you in trouble with the head chef.

Thanks to Steve Dzupin for this tip.

If you have a hard time finding liquid lanolin you can mix a small tub of Hornady Unique case lube and 16 ounces of 91% or 99% isopropyl. If you use the 91% isopropyl you'll need to shake the mix to keep it suspended.

Thanks to Daniel Cocanour for this tip.

Solid "Wipe On" Lubes
You can also use plain anhydrous lanolin straight from the can (but not as conveniently) for sizing by putting a little bit on your fingers (just lightly rub your fingers across the lanolin) and then rubbing the cases. "Mink Oil," a refined lanolin leather preservative also works well as a case lube.

Many large drug stores have bulk anhydrous lanolin or they will order it for you, or you can order in it 4, 8, or 16 ounce containers, from Majestic Mountain Sage, 881 West 700 North Ste 107, Logan, Utah 84321, Phone: 435-755-0863, or online at: http://www.thesage.com/catalog/FixedOil.html#Lanolin.

Many people have reported that they have used a little bit of STP oil treatment on their fingers or commercial water based silicone cable pulling lube as a sizing lube.

If you are still using pads to roll your cases on for resizing you can simply use regular undyed dishwashing liquid. Reports are that it works as well as some commercial liquid case lubes. Simply put a very small amount on your pad and rub it in with your fingers. Roll your cases across the pad and resize.

Thanks to Denis Allen for this soap tip.

The "Ballistol Baggy"
Put 2 or 3 drops of Ballistol in a quart size "baggie" then rub the bag sides together so there are no droplets ( you want to be able to feel the oil on the brass but not see any drops). Then put in the brass and mix it around. Works very well with 223 and 308 and does not leave dents after sizing.

 

[777funk]

I spoke with a technician at Lee and I asked if I need to do anything about Galling at this point and he said I may well need to if the inside of the die is no longer mirror like. He recommended 220 crocus cloth.

I ended up putting 240-P3000 and most of the grits in between wrapped on a cleaning rod (stuck on with tape). I finished with a piece of printer paper and car buffing compound. It was definitely a mirror when I finished. I kind of wonder if it needs crosshatching to hold the lube. But I'll try it as is and see how it works once the lube comes in. I'd think no crosshatching (smooth polish) would be better since any ridges/crosshatching will just catch brass residue over time and eventually create stiction again. But not sure there. I'd guess lubed cases up against smooth hard steel would be the best bet.

 

[rcmodel]

Or, you could have used Copper Solvent bore cleaner and cleaned it out without polishing it.

Or, you could have used a flap of black 320 grit paper in a slit dowel rod chucked in a drill.

That gives you the final finish it started out with.

rc

 

[SSN Vet]

Danger! Red alert!

If you put a micro smudge of Imperial sizing die wax on you cases and pull the press handle with anything close to the force you've been applying, you're going to hurt yourself!

You will be amazed at how little effort it will take to size the cases when properly lubed.

BOD given to you here. You read the press instructions... But didn't realize that
1.) there's more to know than any press instructuons will tell you &
2.) Lee takes a minimalist approach with their instructions.

The ABC's of Reloading is a very good reference to have on the shelf.

 

[777funk]

Or, you could have used Copper Solvent bore cleaner and cleaned it out without polishing it.

Or, you could have used a flap of black 320 grit paper in a slit dowel rod chucked in a drill.

That gives you the final finish it started out with.

rc

Curious what copper solvent you'd recommend? I've always used Hoppes #9 to clean guns. Would that work for these dies? I always liked the smell of that stuff. Good solvent.

As far as the factory finish on the metal, this thing was no where near as polished as it is now. It looks as briliant as the polish on a wedding band in a jewelry store on both pieces of the sizing die. Who knows how much of a difference the polish will make, but I'd think a slick polished surface would have to help.