Example Of How Pistol Rounds Suck

[Rule3]

I don't know what some of you are talking about??
Seems like the officers pistol solved the problem.

Here is the video

If only the Social Workers had been available this could have been avoided

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area...nt-deputy-shoots-armed-suspect-in-santa-rosa/

 

[Jeff White]

Let's stay on topic. Police procedure and comments about the current approach to policing in some cities are not on topic. If the thread is to stay open comments will be limited to the terminal effects of pistol ammunition and what training one should do to deal with them.

 

[The Night Rider]

All rounds suck. Everyone who carries a firearm for defensive purposes should learn this saying: There are no magic bullets.

You sure about that?

 

[Jeff White]

View attachment 1146084

You sure about that?

The problem is the M110 howitzer isn't exactly practical to carry for defensive purposes. Separate loading ammunition makes followup shots somewhat slow.

 

[The Night Rider]

The problem is the M110 howitzer isn't exactly practical to carry for defensive purposes. Separate loading ammunition makes followup shots somewhat slow.

In keeping with the context of this discussion I have seen people walk into the ER with handgun bullets in them. With no outward signs of distress

 

[Outlaw75]

This came up as a related video to the OP's. Another good example of how gunshots affect people differently. Also, a good response to the "shoot 'em in the leg" crowd.

 

[21H40]

This came up as a related video to the OP's. Another good example of how gunshots affect people differently. Also, a good response to the "shoot 'em in the leg" crowd.

Yet another example of how law enforcement is different than military. After we were ok to shoot, why stop if they’re still moving?

Handguns are not magic. They put a small projectile into a target, and hopefully hit something that stops the target.

Except mine. Mine will always work with one shot and protect me from being stabbed.

 

[shafter]

The human body can take enormous trauma and keep functioning, at least for a short time. For you hunters out there just look at how far a deer can run after being shot with a 30-06.

Misses happen under stress, sub optimal hits happen under stress, good hits don't work as fast as we may wish. Carry enough gun to deal with realistic threats.

 

[upptick]

He promised to kill her, and seemed like he was (slowly) intent on following through. I doubt he was rational enough to care what size of an officer was there. He said that he was protecting the whole country by himself, and I don't think that means he has a high functioning rational brain.

YMMV but I saw similar responses from smaller people hit with 5.56 in the chest. The only one who stopped immediately had his pelvis shattered.

I think the smart money goes with the 3100fps 55 grain 5.56 projectile generating 1500+ foot pounds of energy at the muzzle compared to the 147grain 9mike mike doing 1100fps and generating around 400 foot pounds. Not that I'd want to be shot with either but statistically it's no contest which causes (far) more damage and hence is more likely to cause immediate incapacitation.

 

[wayneinFL]

It's not unusual for a deer to run 70 yards after a heart lung shot. Why are we surprised a human walked 20 yards?

 

[Atavar]

I think the smart money goes with the 3100fps 55 grain 5.56 projectile generating 1500+ foot pounds of energy at the muzzle compared to the 147grain 9mike mike doing 1100fps and generating around 400 foot pounds. Not that I'd want to be shot with either but statistically it's no contest which causes (far) more damage and hence is more likely to cause immediate incapacitation.

I would be curious to see the IWB concealment holster for your 5.56 pistol.

 

[Jeff White]

It's not unusual for a deer to run 70 yards after a heart lung shot. Why are we surprised a human walked 20 yards?

Most people have no firsthand experience with this. They base their opinions on what they see on TV and in the movies. Hollywood most often portrays any gunshot wound as being immediately incapacitating. It's about as accurate as the fictional hero rendering the bad guy immediately unconscious with a single blow to head or back of the neck. Hollywood portrayals of people being shot have been suggested as being responsible for the phenomena of people dropping instantly dead from what should have been a non-fatal gunshot would. It's speculated that they die because that's what they have been conditioned to believe happens when someone gets shot. I have no idea if it's true or not.

 

[upptick]

I would be curious to see the IWB concealment holster for your 5.56 pistol.

I think the point is that the handgun is just something to tide you over until you get to your rifle or shotgun since the subject of the post is "example of how pistol rounds suck."

 

[WrongHanded]

I think the smart money goes with the 3100fps 55 grain 5.56 projectile generating 1500+ foot pounds of energy at the muzzle compared to the 147grain 9mike mike doing 1100fps and generating around 400 foot pounds. Not that I'd want to be shot with either but statistically it's no contest which causes (far) more damage and hence is more likely to cause immediate incapacitation.

1100fps from LE department supplied 147gr 9x19mm ammo is pretty optimistic. More like 1000fps - 1050fps, for 325ft.lbs - 360ft.lbs, from a service length barrel. Hardly impressive stuff.

 

[JERRY]

Caliber and capacity will never make up for poor shot placement and or poor tactics.
I don't know any police training Academy or any police training in general nowadays that teaches fire one round center mass close range and assess.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think the point is that the handgun is just something to tide you over until you get to your rifle or shotgun since the subject of the post is "example of how pistol rounds suck."

I disagree.

The officer whose actions were described in the OP would have been most unlikely to have fired and then tried to access a long arm. A civilian defender who leaves an encounter and "gets to" his rifle or shotgun would have no justification for usng the gun unless hae had been pursued.

1100fps from LE department supplied 147gr 9x19mm ammo is pretty optimistic. More like 1000fps - 1050fps, for 325ft.lbs - 360ft.lbs, from a service length barrel. Hardly impressive stuff.

Doesn't it penetrate adequately? Isn't that all that it has to do?

 

[upptick]

I disagree.

The officer whose actions were described in the OP would have been most unlikely to have fired and then tried to access a long arm. A civilian defender who leaves an encounter and "gets to" his rifle or shotgun would have no justification for usng the gun unless hae had been pursued. ...

Wait, I thought the other moderator said to keep this about the performance of the firearms and not police tactics. Goose gander dude....

 

[21H40]

I think the smart money goes with the 3100fps 55 grain 5.56 projectile generating 1500+ foot pounds of energy at the muzzle compared to the 147grain 9mike mike doing 1100fps and generating around 400 foot pounds. Not that I'd want to be shot with either but statistically it's no contest which causes (far) more damage and hence is more likely to cause immediate incapacitation.

I don't disagree. I was told once "if it is worth shooting, we start with 25mm and move up from there." I figure anything less than 25mm means taking your chances with an inferior tool.

 

[WrongHanded]

Doesn't it penetrate adequately? Isn't that all that it has to do?

You and I have been rounds on this. So here's one of the same links I keep providing on to topic:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0702107

I know you don't believe velocity and energy matter, providing that the bullet expands and penetrates adequately. I believe, based on a number of sources, that a handgun bullet is capable of more than poking holes. And that providing penetration and expansion ARE adequate, an increase in energy is highly beneficial.

Read the paper, or don't read the paper. It's up to you.

 

[Jeff White]

I think the point is that the handgun is just something to tide you over until you get to your rifle or shotgun since the subject of the post is "example of how pistol rounds suck."

Unless you are in your home, getting to your rifle or shotgun is a moot point. If you can safely disengage to go for a long gun, you are out of the fight. There are almost zero situations where a private citizen would be legally justified in leaving a fight and returning with a more effective weapon.

“Use your pistol to fight to your rifle” is a nice pithy saying (I believe it’s attributed to Clint Smith) but it’s not really applicable for a private citizen.

 

[bearcreek]

Misses happen under stress, sub optimal hits happen under stress, good hits don't work as fast as we may wish. Carry enough gun to deal with realistic threats.

Agreed, but I'd like to add that enough training to deal with realistic threats may even be more important than enough gun. There are a whole lot of folks who carry guns who treat that weapon as a magical talisman, rather than a tool.

 

[shafter]

Agreed, but I'd like to add that enough training to deal with realistic threats may even be more important than enough gun. There are a whole lot of folks who carry guns who treat that weapon as a magical talisman, rather than a tool.

I absolutely agree that skills are more important than hardware although we should strive for the best of both.

 

[shafter]

Fighting your way to your rifle is relevant when the VC overrun the firebase in the night, or possibly some law enforcement situations, but for 99 percent of the time we fight with what we have on us.

 

[Kleanbore]

Read the paper, or don't read the paper. It's up to you.

I have read it--a single paper, based on a small handful of observations, from sixteen years ago, peer reviewed only by the author's wife. lt has not been cited by anyone in the business, and no one else has come forward to support it. I am not impressed.

 

[Kleanbore]

Wait, I thought the other moderator said to keep this about the performance of the firearms and not police tactics. Goose gander dude....

Jeff was obviously referring to how police work is done, and not how they use their weapons when the need arises.