Experienced loaders...is this load safe?

[LocoGringo]

Good evening. There is no load data for the components I'm using and I've already contacted the technicians at Ramline (the makers of the powder) and they told me to pick a load between the 124 and 147 bullet of similar construction and start low. I did and this is what I came up with:

BBI (Black Bullets International) 135 grain coated lead 9MM bullet
5.2 grains Silhouette powder
Wolf Primer
Varied brass
Muzzle velocity of 1100 FPS
Power factor of 149

I'm shooting it out of a STI Marauder 2011 9mm for 3-gun competition. I know it's a high power factor for practical competition when most competitors load light, but I have my reasons. My questions are these:

1. Do you think this load is safe or am I flirting with a "kaboom"?
2. What is a dangerous level power factor for 9mm?

Thanks for any educated opinions you can provide.

 

[243winxb]

Varied brass and COL , 2 unknown factors that have a direct effect on pressure.

 

[Frankl03]

Are you loading long for the STI? Loading long of course will decrease pressure.

 

[kingmt]

Is what you listed the data from a manual? What exactly are you using?

If not you must have already shot some. If so post pictures of your brass & primers would be helpful.

 

[Walkalong]

The Ramshot 6.0 PDF gives:

124 (L) LC RN 5.0 1,091 5.3 1,149 38,330 1.050

in the +P section fr 124 Gr. The data for coated is going to be very close. Two things to take into consideration. You are loading 135 Gr vs 124, that data is for an OAL of 1.050. What OAL are you loading?

At 1100 FPS, assuming you got this from chronographing some, I would think you are OK.

What is a dangerous power level for 9MM? Anything over +P pressures IMHO, despite people loading it for 9MM Major and taking their chances with certain firearms. We don't do that here, although there are plenty of other places to talk about loading 9MM Major if you so desire.

 

[LocoGringo]

OAL is 1.145-1.150". My goal is 1.145" but can " let it slide" until 1.150".
I cannot go longer than 1.150 because it will not plunk in my XDm barrel. My XDm is my backup gun and has the tighter chamber between the STI and the XDm.

My velocity data is from my chronograph.

I have fired several hundred rounds but do not know exactly how many. I loaded a total of 1000 over the course of several weeks and am down to my last few hundred. I've had no issues, but don't want to be surprised either. Thank you for the responses so far.

 

[243winxb]

A steel frame gives good protection , compared to "plastic" guns.

If pressure is on the high side, it may take a few loadings till pressure signs appear. Bullet set back on chambering a round can raise pressures. Here are some general pressure sighs to look for.

 

[Mauser69]

I am sorry, but I feel that answering your question is irresponsible. You sound like a new reloader who does not have the knowledge or experience to evaluate any answer. In my opinion you need to do a lot more learning - READ some good reloading manuals like Lee or Lyman, and especially stick to ONLY published loads until you have some experience. And if you are smart, you will never trust answers you get from an internet forum (some are good, but many are from idiot goobers too). Just use those answers to point you in the right direction to do actual research. That is where the experience comes in - you need to be able to spot the goobers.

If you had actually read in detail ALL of the information in Richard Lee's book, you would be able to analyze and answer your own question quite easily.

 

[mdi]

I agree with Mauser69 on this thread. One of the "best" ways to ruin a gun or lose fingers is to extrapolate load data from two different loads using two different components.

FWIW and a hint I tell new reloaders; find a load in your reloading manual(s) before you buy components...

 

[reddog81]

Where'd you come up with that load? 5.2 is higher than all loads on ramshots's downloadable PDF except for +P loads with a 124 grain bullet. The +P data for 124 lead with silhouette maxes out at 5.3.

Using 147 grain load data would be much better than starting at the high end of 124 data.

 

[IMtheNRA]

In Ramshot's pdf, under 9mm +P, the 124 grain lead bullet has a maximum charge of 5.3 grains of Silhoutte and the 147 grain lead bullet maxes at 4.9. Your charge of 5.2 grains for a 135 grain lead bullet is significantly higher than what I would extrapolate from Ramshot's data. Since you're already extrapolating from their so-called "+P" data, it's probably a really great idea to back off a few tenths of a grain. As to your original question, whether your load is safe or not, we can only guess.

 

[Sunray]

That'd be Ramshot, not Ramline(they make cheap synthetic stocks). Owned by Western Powders. Same guys as Accurate powders.
I would not use any powder/bullet combination for which there is no actual data. Especially with a high priced pistol like your's. Although, I think you're fine. Except, of course, if anything goes wrong you have no proof the Ramshot techie told you anything.
5.2 grains of Silhouette is the start load(not the +P Max) for a cast/plated 124 grain bullet according to Western's site. Max is 5.8(the +P start load. Not that it matters. +P is about pressures. 9mm max +P pressures are running a bit over 38,000 PSI. You should be around 4,000 PSI less. Mind you, STI does not mention +P on their site.) Power factors mean nothing(they're applicable to shooting games only and are pure gaming numbers. Nothing to do with reloading.), but 1100 fps indicates more than 5.2 is being used. Max loads with 1.160" for a 124(good for any 9mm bullet) are running slightly over 1100 fps. 5.2 grain start loads are not.
Max pressures with Silhouette are a tick higher for a 124, but close for a Berry's 130 according to Hodgdon's site. Hodgdon shows 1.150" as the OAL for a 130. One ever used 1.169" with cast 121 grain TC's myself. That'd be the MAX OAL for 9mm.
"...will not plunk in my XDm barrel..." An SA Inc. XD? Something is wrong. Those are made to SAAMI spec. 1.69" is the max OAL for 9mm. A loaded cartridge at 1.150" should fit.

 

[reddog81]

He's using a coated lead bullet not a plated bullet. That load data has a huge discrepancy between the lead data and the plated. I can't explain that large of a discrepancy but I know I'd be using the lead data and not the plated data. You can use lead data for plated bullets but I've never heard anyone say that you can use plated data for lead bullets.

The Ramshot data i'm looking at shows 4.3 as the start for 124 LC bullet and 5.0 as the max for regular 9mm. I downloaded my sheet earlier today. The 147 LC bullet has a starting load of 4.0 and max load of 4.7.

 

[Rule3]

I really do not understand your question? This is all after the fact.

You state you have loaded 1,000 and fired several hundred but are now asking if they are safe??

As a "general" rule of thumb. (which I dislike). If no data can be found for your bullet than the next highest weight bullet data can be used. So there is no 135 and the next would be 147. If you notice you are well over that data. So my answer is NO they are not good to shoot. Of course you may be in the +P range but I do not go there myself.

Again, where did you find this data??

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web-1.pdf

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

FWIW Coated bullets can be loaded to FMJ levels if they are Hi-Tek or powder coated bullets. Black Bullets now uses Hi-Tek where they once used molly and BHN is around 16 for their 9mm . Though that is not the issue here in a lot of peoples mind I felt it worth noting.

 

[Walkalong]

I really do not understand your question? This is all after the fact.

You state you have loaded 1,000 and fired several hundred but are now asking if they are safe??

As a "general" rule of thumb. (which I dislike). If no data can be found for your bullet than the next highest weight bullet data can be used. So there is no 135 and the next would be 147. If you notice you are well over that data. So my answer is NO they are not good to shoot. Of course you may be in the +P range but I do not go there myself.

Again, where did you find this data??

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web-1.pdf

He is .1 under the +P max for a 124 Gr lead round nose in the 6.0 PDF you linked to. His OAL is about .005 less than the one used in the PDF. So he is right up there at max. The other clue is his 1100 FPS velocity which is 50 FPS less than what they got in the PDF. So I think he is OK, but of course we don't know. I assumed he started lower and worked up to it, then after shooting some got a little nervous and asked our opinions, and opinions are all they are, and we don't take the risk, he does.

 

[DeadEye9]

I've got quite an extensive test list of 9mm loads. Haven't used Siljouette personally but I've loaded a ton of CFE Pistol and AutoComp for 9mm which are very similar. That load your working with is on the higher end, but I wouldn't say your at risk of danger. I've run identical power factor/velocity loads with the similar powders I mentioned above, albeit in a different chamber than your STI, and came in around 36-36.5k PSI. If you pull the OAL a few thou, you can drop that into normal pressure spec, so it's not overly extreme. If the load performs well for you, stay with it and just watch the brass/primers for tell tales as a basic precaution JIC.
If your not happy with the performance of the load, I would recommend trying AutoComp or Power Pistol if this is for Competition. Overall my most accurate 9mm loads in 135 and 147 have been realized with PP and my best 115/124 loads have been with CFE and AutoComp, though Auto makes some excellent 135/147 loads as well so could easily be a PP substitute if necessary. Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[Rule3]

He is .1 under the +P max for a 124 Gr lead round nose in the 6.0 PDF you linked to. His OAL is about .005 less than the one used in the PDF. So he is right up there at max. The other clue is his 1100 FPS velocity which is 50 FPS less than what they got in the PDF. So I think he is OK, but of course we don't know. I assumed he started lower and worked up to it, then after shooting some got a little nervous and asked our opinions, and opinions are all they are, and we don't take the risk, he does.

The OP is using a 135 gr coated lead bullet, so to me the next higher bullet above a listed 125 gr under +p is the 147,
I looked at the the 147 gr Lead data for the LC FP which shows a min of 4.6 and a max of 4.9 .

Regardless, I would think asking before loading and shooting would be be the safer thing to do.

 

[LocoGringo]

For some answers, thank you on the correction on the powder company's name. I didn't have my info in front of me and was working off of memory and not enough sleep, so I'm sure I sounded less than intelligent.

I am a new reloader to pistols but have been reloading a couple of rifle calibers for about 4 years. I have read Lee's book on reloading a couple of times and am not completely stupid.

I did start lower (4.8 grains if I remember correctly) and worked up by .2 of a grain to arrive at 5.2. I originally wanted to stop at 5.1 but wasn't sure .1 of a grain would have made enough of a difference to evaluate to go from 5.0 to 5.1. That is where my inexperience shows with pistol loading I guess.

Since I am working with a bullet that there is no load data for with this powder, I went to the source of the powder to try and get some advice from the most experienced people with that powder. I told you the answer they gave me.

The results of my tests perplexed me but the 5.2 load was clearly the most consistent and accurate. For some reason the 4.8 load shot way left, but grouped ok. The 5.0 load was scattered and the 5.2 load was high but nicely grouped, so that's the one I went with.

The source of my info was the online form at Ramshot last year around August I think. I can't remember exactly what I looked at to determine my starting point, but I think I went off of BBI's suggestion of looking at plated bullet info rather than straight lead.

There are some knowledgeable people on here and since I'm basically experimenting with a lot of unknowns, I thought I'd ask my questions. Actually shooting this ammo doesn't feel particularly harsh (shooting a lot of 9mm ammo is involved with my job, so while it may not be exact, I've got a pretty good feel if something is off).

Thank you for the positive and helpful responses.

 

[LocoGringo]

Rule3, the link you provided is exactly where I got my data. According to the chart for lead bullets, with the 147 I'm .3 grains more than max and loading at the same OAL and .1 grains under 124 max and loading long OAL in comparison. There seems to be a narrow window there for Silhouette. My velocity seems to fall in line in the range provided for those bullets.

I don't see a separate section for +P loads...only min and max loads.

You're right, it would have been smarter/safer to ask first, but here I am now. I think I'm within acceptable limits, but wanted to get more experienced loaders' opinions.

A major reason I chose Silhouette powder is because that's what was available to me during the powder shortage AND it seemed to be a good fit for 9mm competition loads.

 

[Walkalong]

It is a good fit for that, and part of why I say I think you are OK is Silhouette should be able to get a 135 Gr coated bullet to 1100 FPS without issues. Your post about how you arrived at the load makes perfect sense.

 

[Rule3]

Rule3, the link you provided is exactly where I got my data. According to the chart for lead bullets, with the 147 I'm .3 grains more than max and loading at the same OAL and .1 grains under 124 max and loading long OAL in comparison. There seems to be a narrow window there for Silhouette. My velocity seems to fall in line in the range provided for those bullets.

I don't see a separate section for +P loads...only min and max loads.

You're right, it would have been smarter/safer to ask first, but here I am now. I think I'm within acceptable limits, but wanted to get more experienced loaders' opinions.

A major reason I chose Silhouette powder is because that's what was available to me during the powder shortage AND it seemed to be a good fit for 9mm competition loads.

Western is one of the few that lists +P data for 9mm.

Regular data is on page #8 and plus P is on page #9

Regular data for a a 135 is not given so you can go to the next higher data of 147

Regular data is 4.1 to 4.6 which you are over

For the +P version the data for a 147 grain bullet is 4.6 to 4.9 gr, again you are over.

Now this is all interpolation and jumping up the to the next higher weight bullet. Which can be done as heavier bullets generally us less powder than the lighter ones. With your lighter bullet the velocity will increase a bit.

You are not extremely over but I do not use that powder so can not really say. I am guessing it is a fairly "stout" load

Now this is based on THEIR test results. Data will vary all over the place depending on where you look. Also this is not the exact same bullet that you are using.

How a coated bullet relates to a non coated lead is a whole different ball game. ??

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

Based on my experience and research only- not for your use but reference only- I spend countless hours working up every load- gathering information from loading manuals, internet, endless questions here, manufacturers, Goobers, trusted re-loaders and even writing email questions to companies when I am not sure.... and then testing, adjusting, checking my information again and retesting until I am 100% sure- then retest again just to be 101% sure before I start a run of 2 to 3,000 bullets. Overkill? Maybe. But that is just me. Your mileage may vary. Do not use these numbers- this is just for your comparison to your own tests. Without a chronograph, you will not have all of the information available to you.

Zero 125 JHP using (RAMSHOT) Silhouette powder. COL 1.075 Mixed range brass and Sellier & Bellot primers- Glock 19, 34 and Keltec Sub2K
Posted tests are from Glock 19

5.0 974 FPS
5.0 973 FPS 30 rounds with matching head stamps, trimmed to the same length and weight, exact same)
5.1 986 FPS
5.2 991 FPS
5.3 1037 FPS
5.4 1053 FPS
5.5 1081 FPS

Random brass stand deviation and FPS is no different than matched brass (for me)

I have recently switched to Rocky Mountain Reloading 124 Gr. JHP because of awesome expansion and I was told that I could use the same load data for the Hornady XTP. Hornady #8 recommends COL of 1.060 for the 124 Gr. I am starting my testing at 1.075 and working up all new loads- 1 grain in bullet weight is no big deal, right? WRONG! New bullets, new tests. That's what makes this all so incredibly interesting and fun. Sometimes all of the work I do shows no difference and others it is significant for loads that are almost the same.

Like @DeadEye9 I am a big fan of AutoComp. I really like Silhouette, but I can get the same velocities with slightly less powder and less pressure from AutoComp and it is less expensive.
New powder, new tests. Keeps me busy and out of trouble.

 

[LocoGringo]

Ok, I did NOT look at the plated bullet info, but actually did look at the straight lead info provided on the Ramshot page. I confirmed with Black Bullets International that straight lead info should be used for loading purposes.

Thank you Ghost for your example. That is the type of info I'm looking for and that scale showing the velocity differences is surprising. Maybe I should give 5.1 grains a chance...and I think I will. Honestly, do you think my methodology to determine my load range from what I have described here is sound, even if I put the cart before the horse and loaded 1000 rounds after a short testing period? I was eager to get a load going and begin practicing. I think I'm ok with the current load, but my inexperience is giving me enough concern to be sure and continue testing.

Rule3, thank you for the info on +P loads with Ramshot. I'm glad you made me aware I'm in +P territory and REALLY need to be careful since I'm walking that razor's edge.

Thank you all for your replies and helping a new reloader to pistol reloading stay out of trouble hopefully. Keep it "High Road".

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

Thank you Ghost for your example. That is the type of info I'm looking for and that scale showing the velocity differences is surprising. Maybe I should give 5.1 grains a chance...and I think I will. Honestly, do you think my methodology to determine my load range from what I have described here is sound, even if I put the cart before the horse and loaded 1000 rounds after a short testing period? I was eager to get a load going and begin practicing. I think I'm ok with the current load, but my inexperience is giving me enough concern to be sure and continue testing.

@LocoGringo I am not the one to ask as far as your load range being sound. I can only relay to you my experience. The one thing I have learned is that each load is different- even in different guns. I wish reloading was as cut and dried as someone telling me that "this is the way it is done- start here and go there" etc. Powder company load data is best to base your starting loads on. So many times, as is the case with COL the powder company recommends one thing and the bullet manufacturer states another. Berry's Bullets website has COL listed for each of their bullets. I wish they all did that!
Good luck on your adventure and keep asking questions. I know I ask questions repeatedly and I am always learning new things. The folks here are awesome.