Experienced reloader with handgun reloading questions

[ArtP]

Hi,

I currently reload for rifles. I think I want to start reloading for pistols as well. I would like to know what some of the differences are as far as proceedures and tools.

I am primarily interested in 45 ACP & 44 mag, maybe 9mm later. The .44 mag ammo I would want to use in a SA revolver and a lever rifle and I would want to make ammo that is identical for both and compromise where needed.

I pretty much only neck size my brass and perform a FL size only if I have any difficulty chambering, I reload for bolt actions. I never crimp and rarely use bullets with a cannelure. I really like the way Lee collet dies neck size and they just happen to be the cheapest. If there's good reason, I'd buy more expensive dies for pistols. I have a single stage press and don't need to crank things out by the hundreds.

I'm anal about rifle accuracy but wouldn't be with handgun ammo. 3 MOA out of a carbine .44 would be acceptable. Combat accuracy out of pistols is fine.

What I'm unsure about is:

which brand dies are best for handgun cartridges?

How is sizing handgun brass different than bottle neck rifle brass?

Are there any tools I would need that are specific to HG reloading?

If I'm able to get 10 - 15 uses per rifle brass, how does HG brass differ in the calibers I listed?

To crimp or not, and how?

Have I forgotten anything I should be asking?

I appreciate any inofrmation.

 

[Oyeboten]

Far as I understand, and more experienced people will soon follow to enlarge and perfect...


A good Crimp is important for Tube Magazine Rifles shooting erstwhile Revolver Cartridges to prevent Bullets from being driven in ( by the inertia during recoil when the they wish to all move forward, and, then, the Magazine Spring slams them back, ) in pressing and being pressed by the Cartridge Base in front of them. Pointy Bullets of course were usually avoided, for fear their pointy aspect might sufficiently press the Primer in front of them, to occasion a disaster of sorts.

A good Crimp is important for Revolver Cartridges unless Loadings are indeed very low, to prevent Bullets from creeping out and jamming the Cylinder's ability to rotate.

Where, Autoloading Pistols generally have a tight Bullet to Case fit, and, no Crimp in the usual sense, or, a very slight Crimp only, if not a proper Cannalure, since they register in the Chamber by the Case Mouth edge, and one would not want it to be curving 'in' where the Cartridge might end up being too far in the Chamber for a sure detonation to occur.

Any established Make Dies will be fine, and, lightly lubricating the Dies and Cases is of course a good idea if re-sizing.

Low pressure Cartridges probably do not need to be resized, unless the Bullets seem to fall in when being placed...

Low to medium pressure Revolver Cartridge Cases, or, Autoloading Pistol Cartridge Cases loaded to low or medium Target type pressures, will usually enjoy a virtually indefinite lifespan, compared to High Pressure Rifle Cartridge Cases...especially if not needing to be resized every time.

 

[NuJudge]

To add to what Oyeboten said,

Crimping is absolutely necessary in revolver calibers, and in magnum revolver calibers loaded up to their full potential it usually has to be a really strong crimp, which makes neck cracks appear earlier. For semiautos you just straighten out the flaring necessary for seating.

Full length sizing is rather more necessary than with rifle.

For semiauto pistols, when jamming is not acceptable, you might look at Lee Factory Crimp Dies. I try not to use them, because I worry that they will force the usually Lead bullet in the assembled cartridge to be smaller (undersized), but functioning is more important than Leading in some circumstances. A case gauge might be useful.

The higher pressure your loads, the shorter your case life: .45acp cases last forever at low pressure, but 9mm fail rather early at 35,000psi. For full charge .44 Magnums that have high pressure and crimping, shorter still.

Regarding die makers, I like Steel sizing dies for tapered cases such as the 9mm. Lee Carbide dies size further down toward the bottom of the case than most makers, which may be useful if you shoot range pickup brass that's been shot through Glocks. Dillon size dies don't size the case anywhere near the bottom, which may be a problem with pistols that have loose/Glock chambers. EGW sells a die made by Lee that sizes semiauto case diameter down further than usual, giving more grip on the bullet (and more of a wasp-waist effect). I shoot a lot of Lead bullets, and I prefer Dillon Seat dies because you can disassemble them to clean out bullet Lubricant which got where it's not supposed to be, without losing adjustment.

You won't need to trim pistol cases. A good Tumbler is nice to remove dirt and lubricant (if any): I have used a Lyman for 20+ years. The volumes of pistol ammo you will shoot will probably be much larger than that of rifle ammo, so figure out how you will bag or box it: I box it usually.

 

[Fatelvis]

What I'm unsure about is:

which brand dies are best for handgun cartridges?
-Dillon, I believe the best, due to thier design. Seperate crimping die, and seater and crimping die have removable inners for cleaning, without disrupting die setting.

How is sizing handgun brass different than bottle neck rifle brass?
-Easier. With carbide dies, no lubing, or worrying about headspace when setting die. Just run the die down to the shellholder and size.

Are there any tools I would need that are specific to HG reloading?
If you're not using a powder measure with a powder funnel, you may want to get a Lee flaring die, to ease bullet seating.

If I'm able to get 10 - 15 uses per rifle brass, how does HG brass differ in the calibers I listed?
-Same, if loads arent maximum, and not over crimped.

To crimp or not, and how?
-Medium roll or taper crimp, into the cannalure or crimping groove.

Good luck, and good shootin'!

 

[loadedround]

Dillon pistol dies are excellent, but are designed for their progressive presses only and will not be suitable for a single station press since Dillon dies will be missing the expanding die(second die in set). Without this die you will be unable to expand(open)case mouths to seat bullets. You would be shaving lead bullets and possibly crushing cases with jacketed bullets. Dillon expands the case mouth through the powder filling die on it's second stage. Both RCBS and Redding make excellent pistol dies.

 

[243winxb]

Die Brand- Sizing die should be Tungsten Carbide (rcbs). Sizing-FLRS per die instructions. Tool- drawing a blank on that right now. Loads per brass-many, same as rifle. Crimp- Yes, all get crimped. Autos-taper. Revolvers roll crimp. Most dies come with the correct crimp built into the seating die.

 

[jfh]

I think you've gotten a good overview of the differences, ArtP--and, BTW, welcome to THR Reloading!

My reloading experience is probably the obverse of yours--e.g., much handgun-cartridge experience, little rifle--and only .223. I won't argue for another die brand--I've used RCBS, Hornady, and Lee, and I keep coming back to Lee, but that is mostly based on value considerations--I'm a "good value" kind of buyer for my reloading gear.

FWIW, I do consider a MAX cart gauge to be a very desirable benchtop accessory--but that can be be avoided by using the relevant firearm chambers to check fit and function, kind of.

What I will call out is the use of a SS stage press for handgun reloading. If you are looking to try out 'handgun' reloading, fine--or, if you are a silhouette shooter, yes. But, it needs to be pointed out that almost all other handgun loading does involve a different mindset from precision / accuracy reloading for rifle; one is simply much more production oriented, and the tolerance (pun intended) allowed for production results in frustration at a slow pace. Soooo....unless immediate cost considerations are front and foremost, I suggest you get a Lee Classic Turret as well: the cost is about $100.00, and you can use it both as a single stage, and as a turret--and as an auto-indexing turret. Your production can range, therefore, from the nominal 50 rph found in batch handgun processing on up to perhaps 180 rph when you are churning out your selected recipe.

FWIW. Otherwise, I think your questions have been answered.

Jim H.

 

[ranger335v]

"which brand dies are best for handgun cartridges?"

Lyman or Redding, only due to their excellant and unique "two diameter + flair" expander plug.


"How is sizing handgun brass different than bottle neck rifle brass?"

All current pistol sizer dies are carbide. There is no beneft, and some disadvantage, to "sizing die to touch the shell holder". Cases will last longer if you only size about half way down OR no further than is required so they chamber easily. Excessive working of any case decreases its life.


"Are there any tools I would need that are specific to HG reloading?"

Need is a strong word; I LIKE Lee's Factory Crimp Dies but I don't need them.


"If I'm able to get 10 - 15 uses per rifle brass, how does HG brass differ in the calibers I listed?"

In general terms, not a lot.


"To crimp or not, and how?"

"Crimp" them at least enough to remove the flair or your cartridges may be difficult to chamber. Auto cartridges (generally) don't need a crimp, as such, but they MUST have the flair removed by a crimper. Heavy revolver loads do need a fairly deep crimp to prevent bullets pulling out during recoil.


"How?" (And how much?)

Use a seperate crimp die or the crimper ring in most seaters. Eye-ball some factory rounds and duplicate their appearance.

 

[phred45]

Because you want to use your reloads in both your rifle and revolver, you will need to watch for the maximum overall length that your feed ramp in the rifle will handle. Marlin's maximum length in 44 Mag is considerable shorter than a revolver's cylinder. Most JSP or JHP in 240 gr or less will work, but cast Keith-type bullets may not come out short enough to work through the rifle. You may also want to consider the type of rifling in the rifle. If it is Marlin's micro-groove, you may have trouble with cast bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

Lots of good advise so far. For 9MM and .45 ACP all you need is a very light taper crimp. Just enough to remove the bell and or a hair more. No need to trim either one. For .44 Mag you will need a good roll crimp. If the bullet has a good cannelure (jacketed), or crimp groove (lead), you can easily seat and crimp in the same step. I like RCBS and Redding dies. Anybodies carbide sizer will work just fine. I really like the two step expander introduced by Lyman and basically copied by Redding. I have the Redding expander in many of my pistol die sets, even if the other dies are a different brand. The RCBS seater does as good or better of a job roll crimping. I really like the roll crimp they give. If you want to roll crimp in a second step, I recommend the Redding profile crimp die. Assuming normal pressure loads, .45 ACP brass will last indefinitely, & 9MM lasts many firings. Easily 20, but you'll probably lose it before it wears out. I haven't worn out much .44 Mag brass, so I don't know about it. I don't shoot a great deal of .44 Mag. I don't count the number anyway. When the neck splits, it's done. For straight walled pistol brass most folks just size as far down as the sizer will go. I would surely do that for any auto case. For revolver brass you can partial size if you want to see if it is more accurate.

Some crimp pics.

Welcome to THR

 

[243winxb]

Pistol Sizing dies- Types

Ranger335v >

All current pistol sizer dies are carbide.

Hornady are titanium nitride coated i think?

Hornady>The sizer die features Titanium Nitride sizing rings that eliminate case sticking and require no lubrication.

Walkalong
January 2, 2008, 09:28 PM
The Hornady 9MM nitride sizer that came with my Projector years ago wore out in less than 2000 rounds. The nitride coating was mostly gone. I bought a Lee carbide sizer which is still going strong. Maybe they are made better today or maybe I just got a bad one, but I will never have another.

Their pistol seater dies work very well though.

RCBS are Tungsten Carbide. Just found >

Redding> Titanium carbide differs considerably from tungsten carbides, and is the ideal material for lubeless resizing of cartridge cases.The difference is in the microscopic structure. Tungsten carbide if viewed under a microscope, appears
as sharp irregular micrograins resembling chunks of coal or quartz, and regardless of how well the surface is finished, its inherent structure remains the same.

Titanium carbide micrograins on the other hand, appear smooth and rounded, resembling the rounded stones you might find in a stream bed. Titanium carbide has the highest hardness of any readily available carbide, and those smooth rounded micrograins present a slippery, nongalling surface that is simply unattainable with other carbides.

 

[ArtP]

Thank you for all the answers. I'm amazed I got so many quality answers so quickly from so many. I participate on another forum, but the pace and answers are much slower. I have to read through everything again and will have more questions. For now, I'm writing to let everyone know the effort put into the answers is not wasted and I'm soaking it up.

To clarify, most of my efforts will be to reload for a soon to have; Super Blackhawk 44 mag and Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Part of the allure to the combo is using identical ammo. I understand that may require some compromise.

What is the difference in a roll crimp and a taper crimp?

From what I'm reading, it seems like each die manufacturer has their own proprietary way of crimping.

I'm also a little confused about primers in the 44 mag load. Some manufacturers don't offer a large mag pistol primer, lending to the standard LP primers work for all large pistol calibers. But some do off a mag primer. If any caliber needed a mag primer, I would think it would be the 44 mag. Can I use LP primers for 44 mag in both the carbine and revolver. I get conflicting info when I research it.

If it matters as to how you will answer. Unless there is a good reason not to, I will make all the 44 mag loads at 240gr using jacketed softpoints. Both 44's will be used as camp protectors against two and four legged threats and general plinking. I may also hunt deer and hogs at close range (under 100 yards). Where I camp the black bear would be the most dangerous threat. So I don't foresee using any cast lead bullets.

For the 45 ACP, since it headspaces on the case neck, wouldn't I have to trim everytime? How wide is the acceptable length? In other words, how many thousandths between trim to length and max length? I'm used to rifle calibers that head space on the shoulder where case length is not crucial.

 

[Walkalong]

What is the difference in a roll crimp and a taper crimp?

Did you check the link to the crimp pics?

it seems like each die manufacturer has their own proprietary way of crimping

Not really. They all use a ledge inside the die to push the brass inwards. A taper crimp is just that, a gentle taper inwards, mostly used for auto cases, but can be used for other applications like plated bullets in revolver calibers. A roll crimp uses a sharp ledge in the die to "roll" the brass inwards at a much steeper angle. The pics should show what you asked.

H110/W296 powder needs a Mag primer. As you noticed, Winchester has one LP primer that is supposed to be good for when a mag primer is needed. I have found them to work just fine with W-296. Whatever primer you use will work in either pistol or rifle.

You will never need to trim a .45 ACP or 9MM case. Quit worrying about it. I only know one person here who trims .45. I am quit sure the reloading books have a min and a max trim length if you really want to. I am not where I can look at my books right now.

 

[ArtP]

I just looked at your crimping pictures. Nice photography too, by the way. I think I understand, but I'll post more later. I have to run for a while.

I guess resizing takes even the heaviest roll crimp back out of the brass?

 

[zxcvbob]

Lee dies are almost as good as the other brands, and they are much cheaper. Really, the difference is insignificant, or in some cases perhaps imaginary. You will hate using Lee lockrings on pistol dies (the Lee ring might actually be better for rifle loading because it allows the die to float a little) so buy some Forstner or Lyman or RCBS or whatever other brand of lockrings you like that have set screws and use those on your Lee dies.

I suggest you start with 2400 powder for the 44 Magnum instead of 296 or H110. (2400 is much more flexible, 296/H110 have to be loaded to the max all the time) If you find you are using significantly less than maximum loads of the 2400, move to a little faster powder like Herco or Power Pistol.

Added: Get you some Red Dot powder and some cast bullets for fun and very accurate plinking loads.
Bullseye is a great powder in 9mm and .45ACP.

 

[sharptailhunter]

I recommend Hornady dies. They are titanium nitride. I never lubricate my pistol brass. Their pistol dies are a three die set. They come with lock rings that have allen screws in em so you can lock em down and leave em. Right now Hornady has a 100 free bullet promotion for each set of dies so that makes em even more appealing. The bullet seating die has a bullet alignment piece that makes seating the die super easy. I use lead cast and have yet have one get shaved by going in crooked. The seating plug can easily be changed from flat nose to round nose in about 12 seconds. And they come with a replacement decapping pin that is easily changed out if you break one.

I agree with the argument for something more than just a single stage press. I recently purchased the Hornady Lock N Load auto progressive and I love it. It comes with a 500 free bullet promo. Of course I still use my single stage for my precision rifle reloads. Ya know, a viable and cheap option is the Hornady Lock N Load bushing adapter. It converts your single stage press to their lock n load system. Basically, you screw each die into a bushing resembling a bolt on a bolt action rifle. Then you can quickly swap out dies from the press without changing their adjustment at all.

My final recommendation would be to make sure you have a good set of calipers because it's critical to measure your OACL. If you seat the bullet too deep it can really increase your chamber pressures. Along those lines, be vigilant and make sure you don't get a double charge, that can be disasterous.

 

[Walkalong]

I guess resizing takes even the heaviest roll crimp back out of the brass?

Shooting the round takes some out, then sizing takes a hair more out, and then the expander will do away with what remains.

As far as O.A.L. (Over All Length), crimp into the cannelure on your .44 Mag rounds, and use a sane O.A.L. for the bullet style in 9MM & .45 ACP and you will be alright. Check manuals for O.A.L.'s used for a same style bullet. Unfortunately, some books just load everything long and test. That is worthless, IMHO, and really hinders the reloader trying to use the data. I am sure you have a caliper since you have been reloading rifle for some time. 9MM is much more critical on how deep you seat the bullet because it is higher pressure than the .45 and the case is quite small.

 

[Oyeboten]

When intending a good uniform Crimp for Hand Gun Cartridges, it is best if one can trim all the Cases to a uniform length, or segregate Cases into batches which are fairly alike for length, so they can have a uniform Crimp with one setting of the Crimping Die in the Press as one run them all through their sequences....otherwise, some may get about none, and, others, too much.

I did not know that Sizing Dies could vary so much by Brand, for how deeply they re-size.

I have not bothered doing much re-sizing I guess, or at least not deeply if at all...being into only low pressure Revolver Cartridges so far in my Loadings...and, probably having chubbier Bullets.


Sizing may sometimes be confused with expanding...where, the former, constricts the case to a certain, slightly smaller diameter, for the Bullet to fit tightly-enough...and, the latter, being done inside the Case, alleviates whatever remains of the old Crimp, and or adding a slight Bell to the Case edge lip for making insertion of the new Bullet a little easier to do.

 

[Walkalong]

When intending a good uniform Crimp for Hand Gun Cartridges, it is best if one can trim all the Cases to a uniform length

Agreed. I trim all my revolver brass to get a consistent crimp from round to round. Many here do not, but I believe in it.

 

[Oyeboten]

I do not have a Case Trimmer yet, so, I have been sorting according to length, and, it is tedious! Lol...but, allows like-same-length ones to be in batches anyway...and, the odd ones, I just set to the side for someday, when I will have a Trimmer.


I notice that some Crimping Dies seem to have slightly different geometries to their crimping results...and or also, that some seem to be polished inside better than others...leaving a polished looking result, rather than a matte one of abrasion.

I am not entirely happy with the geometry of mine, and, may see about making a cutter/reamer to very slightly modify the effect, in order to have a more rounded aspect to the crimp, instead of the somewhat abrupt angular one I get presently.

 

[Walkalong]

You are right. Different die brands tend to have slightly different crimp ledges for roll crimps. Hard to beat standard RCBS seater dies for roll crimping, but the Redding Profile Crimp Die and the Hornady pistol seater dies both crimp well too...All have slightly different crimp geometries.

You are correct, some of the crimp ledges are quite rough.

 

[Oyeboten]

Learning learning learning...


I got a Die Plate for my 'Tru-Line Jr.' which would allow the use of standard 'fat' Thread Dies of various makes, but, somehow I goofed, and ended up with it being a six hole, instead of a four hole, where it will not index over the stationary portion which holds the Shell-Holder...Lol...

Anyway, once I get the right kind of Die Plate for the fat Thread Dies, I can try some various brands...like the RCBS

Limited otherwise to the old "310" Dies...which are charming in their way, so, fine with me.


There's a lot to learn with all this! Good fun, endlessly interesting...and, for me, slow...but ( fairly, haltingly, ) sure...

 

[Walkalong]

I really like the Hornady pistol seaters, but had never crimped with one until recently. I was impressed when I did. Pic link.

It's angle is not as steep as the RCBS dies. If you look closely in that crimp pic thread you can see some differences in crimp with different dies/bullets. The crimp groove or cannelure makes a difference in the end look of the crimp as well, even using the same die.

 

[Thumpa]

ArtP

Generally a roll crimp is for bullets with a cannelure and a taper crimp is for those without. A good roll crimp will hold magnum handgun bullets in place.

 

[Oyeboten]

Very nice looking Crimp there Walkalong...


For a Taper Crimp, I would guess that seating to depth, and Crimping, in the same Pull, would be fine, ideal even...


Not so sure on a Roll Crimp though, if maybe seperate procedures would be a little more perfect than doing it one Pull would..? Ideally? Or, Mox Nix?