Failure to extract with 9 mm Titegroup: not enough powder, or too much?

[valleyforge.1777]

UPDATED in post #36, second page.

Failure to extract with 9 mm Titegroup: not enough powder, or too much?

I just started making 9 mm rounds with Titegroup and had several rounds each mag that the fired round stayed in the chamber, did not extract, and thus jammed up the firing string. Easily extracted each of these cases by dropping mag and just hand cycling the slide. None of them stuck or were hard to open the slide, etc. Wondering if I am using too small of a load, or too high of a load?

DETAILS:

Long time reloader of 9 mm (75,000+ rounds) previously always using Win231 / HP38.

Now, have some Titegroup I want to use up so trying that for 9 mm. Loads are 4.6-4.7 grains of Titegroup. Hodgdon website says for 9 mm 115 gr JHP (I’m using FMJ – they don’t have FMJ data) 4.5 to 4.8 grains, COL 1.125

Same handguns (Sig P228 and Sig P365), same 115 grain 9 mm FMJ bullets from Montana Gold, same Federal small pistol primers, same Dillon XL650 loading machine, same finished cartridge length of 1.137, range pick-up brass fired, reloaded, fired unknown number of times but processed and loaded same way as I always do. After getting a couple of strings with the failure-to-extract problem, tried some of my reloads that had been made with Win231. No problems at all. Went back to the Titegroup rounds, and had at least one, but sometimes several failure to extract. Went back to the Win 231 loads, no problems, etc. Had another person shoot the loads and he had exact same results as me: FTE with some of the Titegroup loads, and none with the Win 231 loads.

No chrono owned or available.

 

[TonyAngel]

Failure to extract with 9 mm Titegroup: not enough powder, or too much?

I just started making 9 mm rounds with Titegroup and had several rounds each mag that the fired round stayed in the chamber, did not extract, and thus jammed up the firing string. Easily extracted each of these cases by dropping mag and just hand cycling the slide. None of them stuck or were hard to open the slide, etc. Wondering if I am using too small of a load, or too high of a load?

DETAILS:

Long time reloader of 9 mm (75,000+ rounds) previously always using Win231 / HP38.

Now, have some Titegroup I want to use up so trying that for 9 mm. Loads are 4.6-4.7 grains of Titegroup. Hodgdon website says for 9 mm 115 gr JHP (I’m using FMJ – they don’t have FMJ data) 4.5 to 4.8 grains, COL 1.125

Same handguns (Sig P228 and Sig P365), same 115 grain 9 mm FMJ bullets from Montana Gold, same Federal small pistol primers, same Dillon XL650 loading machine, same finished cartridge length of 1.137, range pick-up brass fired, reloaded, fired unknown number of times but processed and loaded same way as I always do. After getting a couple of strings with the failure-to-extract problem, tried some of my reloads that had been made with Win231. No problems at all. Went back to the Titegroup rounds, and had at least one, but sometimes several failure to extract. Went back to the Win 231 loads, no problems, etc. Had another person shoot the loads and he had exact same results as me: FTE with some of the Titegroup loads, and none with the Win 231 loads.

No chrono owned or available.

I never did like titegroup. There isn't much room to work.

Anyway, what do you mean by failure to extract? As in the slide came back but the case wasn't pulled out by the extractor or the slide didn't come far back enough to hit the ejector? If the slide fed the case back into the chamber and it didn't do a double feed, the slide didn't even come far back enough to peel another round off of the magazine, much less eject the casing.

Without more info, I have to say that either the extractor is bad or the ammo won't cycle the action. At this point I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

[NVcharlie]

I bet tight recoil spring and a semi light load. Too much would have sent your empty case into orbit. If your cases extract with a different powder bump up the tightgroup to max and try a couple

 

[Slamfire]

I would say, cut your loads. In my target 9mm I was looking for loads around 1150 fps, and if you look, factory is about 1200 fps.

M92 FS Beretta Bar Sto Barrel 


115 Full Metal Case Master Factory Ammo 
 20-Jun-09 T = 90 °F 

Ave Vel = 1180   
Std Dev = 10.19  
ES = 33.27  
High = 1197  
Low = 1167  
N = 8  

115 gr RMR Plated RN 4.2 grs Titegroup lot 4-16 WSP OAL 1.150"  Mag Length
15-Sep-16 T = 95 °F  crimp 0.375" 

Ave Vel = 1092   
Std Dev = 20   
ES = 73   
Low = 1065   
High = 1138   
N = 16   
very accurate   

115 gr FMJ Hornady 0.355" 4.2 grs Titegroup lot 4-16 WSP OAL 1.15"
15-Sep-16 T = 95 °F  crimp 0.375" 

Ave Vel = 1108    
Std Dev = 26    
ES = 75    
Low = 1074    
High = 1149    
N = 9

I am using 4.2 grains Titegroup and you are using 4.6 grs! I am going to say the failures to extract are due to the case sticking to the walls of the chamber due to over pressure. So, cut your loads and see what happens.

 

[Typetwelve]

The only 9mm I'm currently loading is 115g, and for the most part, all I use is Tight Group. Currently, I'm using 4.0-4.2 grains tops. I only have two 9mm pistols (both Springfield), but they run just fine.

 

[AJC1]

I run 4.0 grains of titegroup in a Glock 17 with a Storm Lake barrel with flawless function. I tried the exact same load in a CZ 75 spo1 and it would not cycle the action I had to increase the max to get good function of 4.7 grains. All loads 115g rmr matchwiner

 

[George P]

Now, have some Titegroup I want to use up so trying that for 9 mm. Loads are 4.6-4.7 grains of Titegroup. Hodgdon website says for 9 mm 115 gr JHP (I’m using FMJ – they don’t have FMJ data) 4.5 to 4.8 grains, COL 1.125

Same handguns (Sig P228 and Sig P365), same 115 grain 9 mm FMJ bullets from Montana Gold, same Federal small pistol primers, same Dillon XL650 loading machine, same finished cartridge length of 1.137,

Is this part of the issue??

 

[Charlie98]

I'm loading 4.2grn TG with a 124grn Berrys FMJ @ 1.135, and I get 1050fps out of a 3.6" barrel... I'm going to guess the breech is unlocking so violently the extractor is coming off the cartridge rim.

Even considering that, the question remains... is it just short cycling, or is the slide recoiling all the way, stripping a round off and jamming?

 

[valleyforge.1777]

In my original post I did not explain the failure well enough. The fired case was in the chamber but the slide tried to strip off and feed another live round, hence the gun would jam requiring me to drop the mag and then cycle the slide. For the majority of the rounds which worked fine, the brass all landed in a small pile not too far from the gun, definitely not flying far away. I never get the exact consistent charge weight that everyone else gets, so sometimes my loads are 0.1 grain more or less than the ones before or after any given loaded round, sometimes rarely 0.2 grains +/-. Most of my charges that I took off the press and checked were 4.6-4.7 grains. I figured that with my COL being about 1.137 and the Hodgdon website specifying 1.125 I might get lighter pressure than their data expected. But their data was for JHP and I'm using FMJ, so the COL's probably reflect essentially the same case volume with bullet seated. Anyway, a 0.01 inch difference probably does not affect pressure enough to generate malfunctions. Also, most of my rounds worked, it was just about 1-2 out of every 15 that failed. I'm thinking those were probably slightly less than 4.6-4.7 grains or slightly more... I can't reason this out in my mind definitively one way or the other (over or under the charge I need).

A long time ago I had a 229 that was fine with my 115 grain 9 mm reload range ammo but would jam up this same way with about 1-2 per 15 rounds of Federal HST 124 grain JHP duty ammo. I got lots of suggestions (clean the extractor, let someone else shoot it, etc) All good ideas, and then someone said that as they ream barrel chambers, the reamer gets worn out and needs to eventually be sharpened again. The last few barrels done before they sharpen the reamer have tighter chambers. The combination of the higher pressure HST rounds, and the nickel coating of their brass was just enough to keep the fired brass in the chamber and not let it extract. Sure enough, a new barrel from Sig solved that problem for that gun. I am telling you that story because I think those who say my rounds are too hot may be right. Maybe the rounds that are about 0.1, maybe 0.2 grains over my desired range of 4.6-4.7 grains are just too hot and not letting the brass release from the chamber?

I think there are two things I am going to do:
1. Make some rounds that are 4.8-4.9 grains, and if they consistently stick, I will have my answer in less than a magazine-full. Maybe I should not do that. Maybe I need to go the other way, aim for 4.4-4.5 grains and if the gun malfunctions I will have my answer, more safely, in a magazine or two.
2. Probably just go back to Win 231. I just have this thing about having to use everything I have and I have a couple pounds of Titegroup I could not think of anything else to use it for. I had it for 38 special, but do not load for that anymore.

 

[AJC1]

In my original post I did not explain the failure well enough. The fired case was in the chamber but the slide tried to strip off and feed another live round, hence the gun would jam requiring me to drop the mag and then cycle the slide. For the majority of the rounds which worked fine, the brass all landed in a small pile not too far from the gun, definitely not flying far away. I never get the exact consistent charge weight that everyone else gets, so sometimes my loads are 0.1 grain more or less than the ones before or after any given loaded round, sometimes rarely 0.2 grains +/-. Most of my charges that I took off the press and checked were 4.6-4.7 grains. I figured that with my COL being about 1.137 and the Hodgdon website specifying 1.125 I might get lighter pressure than their data expected. But their data was for JHP and I'm using FMJ, so the COL's probably reflect essentially the same case volume with bullet seated. Anyway, a 0.01 inch difference probably does not affect pressure enough to generate malfunctions. Also, most of my rounds worked, it was just about 1-2 out of every 15 that failed. I'm thinking those were probably slightly less than 4.6-4.7 grains or slightly more... I can't reason this out in my mind definitively one way or the other (over or under the charge I need).

A long time ago I had a 229 that was fine with my 115 grain 9 mm reload range ammo but would jam up this same way with about 1-2 per 15 rounds of Federal HST 124 grain JHP duty ammo. I got lots of suggestions (clean the extractor, let someone else shoot it, etc) All good ideas, and then someone said that as they ream barrel chambers, the reamer gets worn out and needs to eventually be sharpened again. The last few barrels done before they sharpen the reamer have tighter chambers. The combination of the higher pressure HST rounds, and the nickel coating of their brass was just enough to keep the fired brass in the chamber and not let it extract. Sure enough, a new barrel from Sig solved that problem for that gun. I am telling you that story because I think those who say my rounds are too hot may be right. Maybe the rounds that are about 0.1, maybe 0.2 grains over my desired range of 4.6-4.7 grains are just too hot and not letting the brass release from the chamber?

I think there are two things I am going to do:
1. Make some rounds that are 4.8-4.9 grains, and if they consistently stick, I will have my answer in less than a magazine-full. Maybe I should not do that. Maybe I need to go the other way, aim for 4.4-4.5 grains and if the gun malfunctions I will have my answer, more safely, in a magazine or two.
2. Probably just go back to Win 231. I just have this thing about having to use everything I have and I have a couple pounds of Titegroup I could not think of anything else to use it for. I had it for 38 special, but do not load for that anymore.

Going lower is going to be the much safer route. Titegroup also works quite well for me in 45 ACP

 

[TonyAngel]

Oh, then yeah. Too hot. Way too hot. Back off of the powder.

 

[sparkyv]

You ain't kidding. Even a smaller range than H110!

I never did like titegroup. There isn't much room to work.

 

[valleyforge.1777]

I loaded 100 more rounds of 4.4-4.5 grains
Just need to try this. If it works, great, I've got enough TG to make a bunch of 9 mm. If it does not work, I am changing back to Win 231 / HP38.

 

[TonyAngel]

I loaded 100 more rounds of 4.4-4.5 grains
Just need to try this. If it works, great, I've got enough TG to make a bunch of 9 mm. If it does not work, I am changing back to Win 231 / HP38.

Bud, those loads were so hot that the cases were so expanded that the extractor tore the head off trying to get it out. A tenths ain’t gonna help much. Something is going on here. Either you set the powder drop wrong or something.

 

[Charlie98]

FWIW, I’ve got 2# of TiteGroup, bought when the dealer was pulling it out of the box, just to have something to load. I don’t care for it, but it does work in the 9mm... within parameters.

 

[Hondo 60]

Ive used tightgroup for over 10 years. My standard load is 4.2 grains

 

[LiveLife]

9 mm ... 115 grain Montana Gold FMJ ... 4.6-4.7 grains of Titegroup ... COL 1.137"

Hodgdon website ... don’t have FMJ data ... I think ... I am going to ... Make some rounds that are 4.8-4.9 grains

No, please don't. Titegroup burns hot and violent and not a powder you want to go over max with. BTW, are you experiencing any bullet setback?

(Ahhh memories ... When I shot USPSA in the 90s, I used Montana Gold jacketed bullets exclusively for 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP)​

When I am referencing Hodgdon load data and can't find FMJ/RN loads, I will often reference Speer load data for TMJ RN which is thick plated bullet (Like Gold Dot HP) that can be driven to jacketed velocities - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...m_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

• 9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ RN Titegroup 1.135" OAL Start 4.1 gr (1061 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1121 fps)

I would test 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4 and 4.5 gr to see which charge produced smallest group. From member posts, 4.2 gr looks promising.

And if you are experiencing bullet setback, you could seat the bullet deeper around 1.130" (to improve neck tension) and test from 3.9 and 4.0 gr.


And THR members agree:

I would say, cut your loads. I am using 4.2 grains Titegroup and you are using 4.6 grs! I am going to say the failures to extract are due to the case sticking to the walls of the chamber due to over pressure. So, cut your loads and see what happens.

Too hot. Way too hot. Back off of the powder.

My standard load is 4.2 grains [for 115 gr FMJ]

 

[GoldieMI]

I'm running 3.9-4.0 grains at 1.1465 with 115gr in my M&P and have run down even lower than that. 3.9 was a good spot for accuracy at 50' for me.
4.6 has got to be screaming

 

[AJC1]

Elvis ammo did a great loading and testing video. 3.9 was his accuracy load

 

[Jonesy814]

In my original post I did not explain the failure well enough. The fired case was in the chamber but the slide tried to strip off and feed another live round, hence the gun would jam requiring me to drop the mag and then cycle the slide. For the majority of the rounds which worked fine, the brass all landed in a small pile not too far from the gun, definitely not flying far away. I never get the exact consistent charge weight that everyone else gets, so sometimes my loads are 0.1 grain more or less than the ones before or after any given loaded round, sometimes rarely 0.2 grains +/-. Most of my charges that I took off the press and checked were 4.6-4.7 grains. I figured that with my COL being about 1.137 and the Hodgdon website specifying 1.125 I might get lighter pressure than their data expected. But their data was for JHP and I'm using FMJ, so the COL's probably reflect essentially the same case volume with bullet seated. Anyway, a 0.01 inch difference probably does not affect pressure enough to generate malfunctions. Also, most of my rounds worked, it was just about 1-2 out of every 15 that failed. I'm thinking those were probably slightly less than 4.6-4.7 grains or slightly more... I can't reason this out in my mind definitively one way or the other (over or under the charge I need).

A long time ago I had a 229 that was fine with my 115 grain 9 mm reload range ammo but would jam up this same way with about 1-2 per 15 rounds of Federal HST 124 grain JHP duty ammo. I got lots of suggestions (clean the extractor, let someone else shoot it, etc) All good ideas, and then someone said that as they ream barrel chambers, the reamer gets worn out and needs to eventually be sharpened again. The last few barrels done before they sharpen the reamer have tighter chambers. The combination of the higher pressure HST rounds, and the nickel coating of their brass was just enough to keep the fired brass in the chamber and not let it extract. Sure enough, a new barrel from Sig solved that problem for that gun. I am telling you that story because I think those who say my rounds are too hot may be right. Maybe the rounds that are about 0.1, maybe 0.2 grains over my desired range of 4.6-4.7 grains are just too hot and not letting the brass release from the chamber?

I think there are two things I am going to do:
1. Make some rounds that are 4.8-4.9 grains, and if they consistently stick, I will have my answer in less than a magazine-full. Maybe I should not do that. Maybe I need to go the other way, aim for 4.4-4.5 grains and if the gun malfunctions I will have my answer, more safely, in a magazine or two.
2. Probably just go back to Win 231. I just have this thing about having to use everything I have and I have a couple pounds of Titegroup I could not think of anything else to use it for. I had it for 38 special, but do not load for that anymore.

Towards the end of the quilted post, you say that Those who say my rounds are too hot may be right. Then you say you are going to do 2 things, and the first one is you are going to load some even hotter???? I do not understand the reasoning here, and you had better think about that approach again. When reloading with a new powder you always start low and work up to a higher charge, not start at, or above the recommended charge weight. Multiple people have responded that they load 115gr bullet in the 3.9-4.2gr range and that sounds like where you should go next. Going higher is going to result in a damaged gun, or damaged gun and shooter

 

[Typetwelve]

I also agree with what people are saying, I definitely would not go hotter in your loads. I'd at least run a small batch of 4 grains and see how they run. What do you have to lose? Short stroke and a no cycle? I'd rather do that before I pop my pistol with a super hot load.

 

[Prowler53]

I loaded 100 more rounds of 4.4-4.5 grains
Just need to try this. If it works, great, I've got enough TG to make a bunch of 9 mm. If it does not work, I am changing back to Win 231 / HP38.

Agree with Jonesy814 on above post. start at 3.9 and work up. Instead of loading 100 rounds at 4.4 - 4.5 and giving up on the powder if it doesn't work out, try 10 rounds of each 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and compare. I think you will be happy at 4.1 to 4.2

 

[GooseGestapo]

Another opinion....

Powder bridging in the powder measure. Results in occasional light charges.

I’ve also had the same symptoms from chipped extractors, particularly in Gen 3 S&W’s.
If you’re dropping rounds in an empty chamber and dropping the slide, quit... It causes chipped or broken extractors.
Ask me how I know....!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Valleyforge.1777,

The only advise I can give you is what the others are saying.
Your loading way to hot and I would also pry the ejector out and take a machinist pick and see if there is a buildup of debris where inside the bend.
My Shield was doing what your describing and it turned out there was a chip of brass stuck in the bend and black debris was covering it and was packed in there so hard it looked like part of the ejector.
I looked a the ejector several times and dug at it with a pick, before that and it looked normal. I got frustrated and threw the complete slide in my ultrasonic cleaner, I pulled it back out and I could see a glint of brass in the bend of the extractor, I again, took a pick and started digging at it and the Hoppes 9 in the ultrasonic cleaner soften the grit up enough I was able to dig it out of there. That piece of brass was almost welded in there and the debris just fill in the gaps.
Take another look at it.

Also you need to quit overloading your rounds with Titegroup. Like Hondo, I've been using it for over 10 years and have never had a problem with it. 4.1-4.2gr with a 124gr is the best load I've found with that weight bullet, and 4.5 grains is maximum for 115gr according to Lyman's 49th. That's at a shorter OAL than your loading at but you need to respect the load data in these manuals, that's what they are there for.

 

[valleyforge.1777]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
In defense of my practices: The manufacturer of the powder, Hodgdon, has the following data:

"Bullet Weight 115 GR. SPR GDHP

Manufacturer Hodgdon

Powder Titegroup

Bullet Diameter .355"

C.O.L. 1.125"

Starting Load

Grains 4.5

Velocity (ft/s) 1,135

Pressure 29,500 CUP

Maximum Load

Grains 4.8

Velocity (ft/s) 1,158

Pressure 30,500 CUP"​

I'm using a FMJ bullet and a slightly longer COL of 1.137, but my original loads were in the middle of the range specified by the manufacturer. Also, note that I mentioned that the fired brass all landed in a neat little pile not too far from the gun. Definitely not thrown as far as I have had with my Win 231 loads, which are themselves well within the publish data from Hodgdon, Lyman, and Speer. In fact, the recoil impulse was imperceptibly different between the Titegroup and the Win 231 loads.
The original loads were not that hot. Now, I have 100 more rounds to test that are at the bottom of the powder manufacturer's data set.
The Speer data is interesting and I had not seen that before. They are using the same 1.135 COL as I am, but for a TMJ bullet, which (as described in a post above) is not exactly a FMJ like I am using but pretty close. Their range is 4.1 to 4.5 grains. I have the Lyman 46, 47, and 49 manuals. They do not list a 115 grain FMJ. Their data for 115 grain is for HP and they use a shorter COL of 1.090 compared to the 1.135 COL I am using.

What I think is going on is that perhaps the burn temp of the powder is high enough that even in a safe range of pressure within the case/chamber and combined with the range pick-up brass probably has some cases that are work hardened enough to not spring back enough to allow easy extraction and the extractor is slipping off the rim for those few cases which amounted to about 1-2 out of each 15 round magazine. If the lower charges (my lower charges, 4.4-4.5 grains) allows the ammo and gun to function, I'll stay there. If not, I don't need to make this work and I can go back to Win 231. Titegroup worked fine for me in 38 Special, which I don't load anymore, and I just wanted to use it up.