Failure to Fire: Quick question

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Zaydok Allen

Zaydok Allen

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I was shooting Saturday and one of my 45 acp reloads failed to fire. I tried it a second time, still a no go.

Once I was sure there wasn't a hang fire going to happen I checked the cartridge. The primer strike looked a bit light, so I naturally thought maybe the striker channel was dirty. But then I recalled I had just cleaned it about 300 rounds ago. However I noticed the primer was not fully seated.

Hmmmm, I fouled up. It seemed odd that it still wouldn't fire to me. But then I thought about it.

So to me it seems there are two possibilities. One, the primer did fire, but being out just far enough, it didn't spark the powder. However, this seems like I would've gotten some indicator that it sparked. In fact I have seen a powderless cartridge cause a squib before.

What seems more likely is that with the primer pushed out just a hair, the striker was not able to reach full velocity, thus resulting in a light strike and failure to fire. That would explain the light primer strike.

What do you all think? I'm just expanding my knowledge here. Uppon closer inspection, I remembered having some issues with that lot of brass. The pockets were a touch tight, and the CCI primers I was using didn't exactly slide in. It took more force than usual to get them seated. In fact they were tight enough that I kept thinking small primer brass had slipped into my large primer brass.
 
The primer was likely not fully seated and the blow from the firing pin was cushioned by the movement of the primer in the pocket when it was pushed forward by the strike. It's important to make sure all primers are seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket so the anvil is set properly into the primer pellet. Otherwise, it won't go off.

I prime off press for this very reason. My primers are set .004" below flush.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
The generally accepted mechanism for a FTFire due to a mis-seated primer is that the primer anvil isn't compressed onto the pellet by the last bit of seating, so the pin strike can't deliver enough energy to the pellet. The energy is spent deforming and seating the cup, ilo initiating the pellet.

Then, on the restrike, the pellet may be fractured and moved out from under the anvil.
 
Anvil is not seated against the primer pocket so the firing pin has pushed the anvil away from the primer cup....
Do over!! Properly seat the primer shoot and repeat.
 
Thanks gents. So it's really more of a function of not having adequate resistance to a poorly seated primer to cause it to fire, due to primer movement when the pin hits.

Walkalong said:
Don't treat primers with kid gloves, seat them firmly to the bottom of the primer pocket.
Click to expand...
No sir. I treat them gently in that I try not to crunch anything in place by pure force, but I do recognize the importance of them being fully seated.

The tight primer pockets on this brass was actually causing very small metal shavings to occur, and the force to seat them was a little disconcerting. This one slipped through. I'm going to pull it, reuse the powder and bullet, and take notes on which brass gave me problems. Next time I'll try Winchester primers with that brass and see if seating is any easier.
 
What method are you using to seat primers? A handheld or on the press?
I prime on the press and seat the snoot out of all primers. They are not gonna blow up.

Yes it could be a "tight" pocket, dirty primer pocket (I do not clean them) If you use a hand primer you just might not have seated it enough.
I have a RCBS hand tool and a Lee, and got tired of doing them. Some folks claim there is a "feel" I don't, Its either seated fully or its not,:)

Then we can get into primer pocket uniforming and all that .:D
 
I make sure the primer cup top is flat after I seat them. glad to here rule3 can't damage a primer with the press as I seat with a lee handheld priming tool.

there can be a lot of garbage in the sized primer pocket; some of my resized 380 auto cases will have pieces of primer anvil embedded in the side of the primer pocket. I get that out with a primer pocket reamer. funny, I have never had this problem with any other cartridge type.

I would, at least, clean out the pocket to remove any junk that prevents complete seating.

luck,

murf
 
460Shooter said:
No sir. I treat them gently in that I try not to crunch anything in place by pure force, but I do recognize the importance of them being fully seated.
Click to expand...

I have mangled a few primers when they have gotten flipped sideways and I've seated them anyway. They don't go bang. Because I am seating forcefully, but not rapidly. Trying to seat a primer really fast is what risks setting them off. They can be mangled pretty badly if you're moving deliberately and still not pop.
 
ATLDave said:
I have mangled a few primers when they have gotten flipped sideways and I've seated them anyway. They don't go bang. Because I am seating forcefully, but not rapidly. Trying to seat a primer really fast is what risks setting them off. They can be mangled pretty badly if you're moving deliberately and still not pop.
Click to expand...
I've had a few turn on their side also and get bent up. It spooked me a little. However I just poped them out and seated new ones.

Good to know they aren't going to set off on me with a little force. The horror stories of primer stacks detonating scare me. So I tend to move pretty slowly. 200 rounds per hour on my 550B is fast for me.

I think one of the manuals I read before starting to load said "Treat them like an egg." Seems a little extreme in hindsight.
 
With the primer backed out a little, you may not have any powder. Break the bullet down and inspect. You will find either a good or bad primer, could be missing a anvil, or charge. Or the primer went off but there was nothing to ignite, no powder. Only way to know for sure is to break it down. I've seen good crimps hold the bullet and keep it from being sent it into the barrel.
 
460Shooter said:
I think one of the manuals I read before starting to load said "Treat them like an egg." Seems a little extreme in hindsight.
Click to expand...

Actually, not bad advice. An egg shell is pretty strong resisting a constant slowly increasing force. It cannot withstand an impact though.

Similar with primers. Just don't be slapping the primer with the seating stem as you stand a good chance of popping it off.
 
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460Shooter said:
No sir. I treat them gently in that I try not to crunch anything in place by pure force, but I do recognize the importance of them being fully seated.
Click to expand...
It is very hard to seat a primer hard enough to cause it to not fire, but relatively easy to seat one not enough and have a failure.

Be firm with them. :)
 
ATLDave said:
I have mangled a few primers when they have gotten flipped sideways and I've seated them anyway. They don't go bang.
Click to expand...
Yep, once they were started I had to seat them further to get the case out of the priming tool. Then I banged them out with a hammer and pin. No bangs. Yet......

index.php

index.php
 
Another quick point, I hand prime and always keep the case mouth pointed away from me, just in case one goes bang, so it will only scare me at worst.
 
murf said:
there can be a lot of garbage in the sized primer pocket; some of my resized 380 auto cases will have pieces of primer anvil embedded in the side of the primer pocket. I get that out with a primer pocket reamer. funny, I have never had this problem with any other cartridge type.

I would, at least, clean out the pocket to remove any junk that prevents complete seating.
Click to expand...
If you load on a progressive press, primer pocket fouling/crud can build up to possibly affect primer cup seating. For this reasons, for rounds that must go bang like match or defensive rounds, I always deprimed/resized separately to be able to inspect primer pockets and clean as necessary. Pre-resizing brass also reduces OAL variance of finished rounds - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806

index.php

index.php

460Shooter said:
Walkalong said:
Don't treat primers with kid gloves, seat them firmly to the bottom of the primer pocket.
Click to expand...
I treat them gently in that I try not to crunch anything in place by pure force
Click to expand...
Over the years, I have found:
  • Different brand of primers can have different amount of three prong anvil "feet" sticking below the cup (as shown in above comparison picture)
  • Anvil tips can vary in shape, size and profile (as shown in above comparison picture)
  • Primer pockets can vary in depths
  • Eager reloaders can modify primer pockets and make them deeper
And I learned:
  • Anvil tips must be "set/pre-loaded" against priming compound to go off reliably
  • Depending on primer pocket depth, seating primers to just flush may not sufficiently "set/pre-load" anvil tip against the priming compound
  • Proper seating of primers requires two (2) steps:
  1. Initial resistance of seating primer cup in the pocket to where anvil feet contacts the bottom of primer cup (or other debri/crud)
  2. Secondary resistance of seating primer cup deeper and pushing anvil feet further "inside" the cup to set/pre-load anvil tip against priming compound
  • To properly set/pre-load anvil tip against priming compound and to compensate for any variance in primer pocket depth, top of primer cup should be seated below flush (.004"+ is my reference depth) and best felt by running finger tip over the primed case
  • Seating top of primer cup to "crushing depth" of .008" below flush produced reliable ignition
So, feel free to seat primers firmly without hesitation. Below are different brand primers seated to .004" and .008" below flush

index.php
 
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Walkalong said:
Yep, once they were started I had to seat them further to get the case out of the priming tool. Then I banged them out with a hammer and pin. No bangs. Yet......
Click to expand...

460Shooter said:
Wow!. I'm still going to be careful, because why not, but my worries are vastly diminished.
Click to expand...

I've used the hammer and pin method being careful to tap the live primer out slowly. More recently, I have universal decapping dies and can easily push the live primer out of the pocket. It makes me more comfortable.

As Walkalong said, it is best to keep the open end of the case pointed in a safe direction or at least keep your face away from the case mouth when seating or unseating live primers.
 
cfullgraf said:
I've used the hammer and pin method being careful to tap the live primer out slowly. More recently, I have universal decapping dies and can easily push the live primer out of the pocket. It makes me more comfortable.

As Walkalong said, it is best to keep the open end of the case pointed in a safe direction or at least keep your face away from the case mouth when seating or unseating live primers.
Click to expand...
Whenever I need to decap a live primer, which has only been a few times, I just use my decamping/resizing die very slowly and gently.

The good part is it’s facing upward and the case mouth is out of line with my face as the ram is up. It’s also contained in the die, so the worst that could happen would be the primer blowing out of the pocket.
 
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1KPerDay said:
Uh... I hope mine are ostrich eggs because I have to lean on the press handle sometimes to seat those suckers in tight pockets.
Click to expand...
Hmm, If I have to lean on the press handle for priming I stop and toss that piece of brass. If the primer is stuck in the brass it goes too.
Likewise if the primer pocket is loose. I resize and prime as a separate operation and anything that feels or seems out of the norm gets special attention.
 
murf said:
I always use safety glasses, at a minimum, when I prime cases. same goes for depriming live primers. I value my eyes and the primer contains the only explosive in the reloading process.

luck,

murf
Click to expand...
While I don't wear safety glasses, I do wear glasses to see. They are meant for distance as I am nearsighted. BUT, I have started buying all my glasses with shatter resistant polycarbonate lenses. My local indoor range requires either or, so it makes good sense for me to spend the extra $25 and get glasses that cover my bases.

They do leave a bit of exposure on the sides, but since I'm generally facing what I'm doing, whether it be reloading or shooting, I think I'm covered alright.

When shooting, I wear metal rimmed sun glasses that wrap around my eyes a bit more, and increase my protection even further.

Always protect your eyes. I imagine being blind as being a nearly intolerable situation for me. My career would be nearly over and relearning how to live after having sight from birth would be a miserable experience.

I have considered Lasik surgery, but I'm rather squeamish about anything touching my eyes, so the notion of a laser shooting into them is disgusting to me. None the less, if I no loner required glasses, I'd still wear safety glasses to be sure
 
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