Federal fussion not expanding

[Mike472]

So I have been using federal fussion 165 gr bullet for a few years. There cheep and group very well out of my 308's.

ButI noticed that they do not expand well espically with behind the shoulder lung shots. Very little hair,blood and poor blood trail. My son shot a doe at about 70 yrds and no blood or hair. When we recovered the deer the exit hole was the same as the entrance hole.

This wasn't the first time I experanced this. The first couple of time I didn't think much of it but this last time we didn't find the deer until the following week.

Well this has caused me to break out my dads old lyman press and load up some of the loads that I have killed many deer with.

Sierra 165 bsp game kings ,imr4064 43.3 grs.

All I can say is WOW now I know why dad used game kings!

I have read that others have had similiar experiences

And one guy said he chrographed fussions at over 3000 fps that could explain why thet don't expand especially at closer ranges.

Thoughts?

 

[GooseGestapo]

The 165gr is typically viewed as a compromise weight. 150's for deer, 180's for BIG STUFF.
In the .308 it's a large deer/elk bullet and as such is intended to expand slower, and penetrate deeper. The Fusion is a electro deposition plated bullet, similar to the Speer GoldDot. A GOOD bullet, but perhaps too tough for smaller deer.

I too have had 4-decades of success with the Sierra ProHunter and GameKing bullets. Love them. But over past 10yrs, and until only recently, hard to get in many variations.

Contrary to what some believe, additional velocity doesn't decrease expansion. It increases it. The Sierra's typically give good expansion down to about 1,600fps. Lower with bullets intended for such as .30/30 and .35 Rem.
The Sierra is a tapered jacket with a moderately soft core. Promotes accuracy and expansion.
I had a similar experience to yours with the Speer 130gr HotCores in a .270 back in the '70's. A buddy shot a 225lb 10pt three times through the chest broadside With my rifle. (Loaded to ~3,000fps over 55.0gr IMR4350). As he approached the deer that was laying down with its head up, he shot it through the neck, killing it. Entry and exit wounds were identical.
Also had a "hard" batch of early Hornady 139gr 7mm SST's. Never got one to expand on game.
On the other hand, some of the first lot# of Nosler Ballistic Tip 100gr .257's, would blow up on impact, giving 6-8" entry wounds, and only 8-10" penetration. Nosler fixed that. However, my .257WbyMag does same thing with 115gr Ballistic Tips at 3,375fps.
You just have to live, and learn...

 

[GooseGestapo]

oop's, double post.

 

[jmr40]

All of the bonded bullets expand slower and and are meant for deep penetration. The165 is probably a good weight in a faster round like 30-06 or 300 WM, or with a softer bullet like the Nosler Ballistic Tip or Hornady SST. You might get better results with 150 gr Fusions on deer.

But everything is a compromise. It seems like someone is unhappy with bullet performance no matter what. Guys use soft bullets and complain about meat damage and no exit wounds. Then others complain about over penetration and lack of expansion when using harder bullets.

The trend seems to be to err on the side of harder bullets anymore. They don't anchor animals as fast, but do provide more penetration when shots are taken from odd angles.

I don't think either approach is wrong. We just have to recognize that if we choose softer bullets they may put game down faster, but we have to choose shots more carefully. If we choose harder bullets it allows us to take shots we might have to pass on with soft bullets, but with the understanding that they may run farther after being hit.

 

[horsey300]

So I have been using federal fussion 165 gr bullet for a few years. There cheep and group very well out of my 308's.

ButI noticed that they do not expand well espically with behind the shoulder lung shots. Very little hair,blood and poor blood trail. My son shot a doe at about 70 yrds and no blood or hair. When we recovered the deer the exit hole was the same as the entrance hole.

This wasn't the first time I experanced this. The first couple of time I didn't think much of it but this last time we didn't find the deer until the following week.

Well this has caused me to break out my dads old lyman press and load up some of the loads that I have killed many deer with.

Sierra 165 bsp game kings ,imr4064 43.3 grs.

All I can say is WOW now I know why dad used game kings!

I have read that others have had similiar experiences

And one guy said he chrographed fussions at over 3000 fps that could explain why thet don't expand especially at closer ranges.

Thoughts?

I agree with jmr and Gestapo here, more speed equals faster expansion, the 165 vs 150 is accurate too, unless you really NEED the deeper penetration, use the lighter bullet, if the 150 is bonded like the fusion then you'll give up little penetration, but if you're dead set on blowing an exit after wrecking two shoulders with a high velocity impact, then the 165 bonded would not be amiss. (You're not wrecking shoulders so might be worth looking lighter) on the other side, the 165 fusion at magnum velocities would exhibit wider wounding.

 

[Mike472]

I will have to disagree with faster speed equal faster expansion. Distance plays a role.

Too fast and the bullet dosen't have enough time to expand before passing through the vitals.
I am not talking about hitting bone most bullets that hit bone will expand well. I am talking double lung where your only going through soft tissue. On deer sized game.

At longer distances ...over 300yrds the faster is acceptabe because at that distance the projectile has time to slow down to expand properly.

This is what I have been reading about and what i have experianced in the field. To fast under 100yrds especially and you run the risk of just punching a small hole straight through and while it will still be a lethal wound recovery is more difficult because of less blood and farther the distance the animal might be able to travel.

You could say don't use a 308 under 100yrds but that is unreasonable when bullet selection can take care of this situation.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Yep! Just like glue. Gotta match the product to the application.

Can't expect Elmer's glue to hold a PVC pipe.

 

[Gtscotty]

165gr bullets are not moving out of your .308 barrel too fast to expand on deer. There is also no way the guy who told you he clocked fusions @ 3,000 fps was talking about 165gr out of a hunting length .308, that's about 250 fps high. Like others have said, bullets tend to upset more and quicker at faster impact velocities, could you find a wild card exception? Maybe, but generally this is the rule. It comes down to forces from the high speed displacement of thicker fluid (flesh and other goos) causing the bullet to structurally "fail" and deform into the mushroom we all like to see. Given the same medium, higher impact velocities equals much higher forces equals faster and more deformation.

I had very good expansion with 165gr SGKs out of my '06 going faster than a .308 will push them on small southern deer. If I were using a .308, specifically on deer, I'd probably try the 150gr SGKs as they are supposed to be a bit softer, and running faster will expand sooner.

 

[Mike472]

All i got is my personal experiance. Fussions did not expand in my opinion. The deer recovered had the same size exit hole as entrance hole.

The sgk had a small entrance hole and an baseball sized exit hole. Both were lung shots.

Fussions will not be used for hunting by me any longer.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

All i got is my personal experiance. Fussions did not expand in my opinion. The deer recovered had the same size exit hole as entrance hole.

The sgk had a small entrance hole and an baseball sized exit hole. Both were lung shots.

Fussions will not be used for hunting by me any longer.

I'm sorry to tell you, but you have that whole velocity vs penetration completely backwards. These guys are telling you completely correct. There is no such thing as velocity being too fast for a bullet to have time to open. That happens on impact and is completely expanded in the first few inches unless you hit bone that further increases expansion. This is completely dependant on target resistance. More speed=more target resistance. Denser tissue=more target resistance. That's the reason that guys that actually take game at very long distances always shoot a much lighter, more explosive bullets at long range, they know they are not going to blow up at 1400 fps like they would at 50 yards and 2800 fps. It's also why it' recommended to shoot for the shoulder and not for a double lung shot at long distances, always based on speed. Most cup and core bullets will not expand below 1800 fps. Bonded bullets like the fusion, take more target resistance than cup and cores. So that distance where the 308 is a good shot with a broadside double lung shot may be 400 yards then you need more target resistance like the shoulder to get expansion. If the bullet is going too slow for expansion, you will get the same experience you got with the fusions, just pencil on thru with little to no expansion. 300 win mag with its much increased velocity may push that point up to 600 yards but at some point, the bullet slows enough to still need more resistance to expand. Have no idea if that's the actual distances that are needed but it was just an example.
Here is a real world scenario that has happened to me.
My kids usually hunt with a 243. We used 100 grain Remington corelocts. Good sturdy bullets that kill gobs of deer each year. My kids have killed quite a few anywhere from 75 to 150 yards. With broadside shots we would get a pass thru 3/4 times. Moved that stand 1 year so it could be bowhunted. Next 3 shots were at 25 yards or less. None of those 3 gave a complete pass thru, all blew up from going so fast. Broke thru 1 side between ribs and liquified everything down to the diaphragm. Bullet fragments against the skin on the other side. Impact velocity was almost 3000 fps at that range and the damage was extensive. I contemplated loading up some bonded, tougher bullets just for these super close shots to minimize meat damage since they would probably expand but not overexpand/explode like the coreloct. This all should correlate with your experience with the fusion and the gamekings. The fusions should probably be saved for faster cartridges than 308 on whitetails unless its super close or you are shooting for heavy bones like the shoulder. Lighter weight bullets helps too. 150s would be better than 165s.

 

[horsey300]

I'm sorry to tell you, but you have that whole velocity vs penetration completely backwards. These guys are telling you completely correct. There is no such thing as velocity being too fast for a bullet to have time to open. That happens on impact and is completely expanded in the first few inches unless you hit bone that further increases expansion. This is completely dependant on target resistance. More speed=more target resistance. Denser tissue=more target resistance. That's the reason that guys that actually take game at very long distances always shoot a much lighter, more explosive bullets at long range, they know they are not going to blow up at 1400 fps like they would at 50 yards and 2800 fps. It's also why it' recommended to shoot for the shoulder and not for a double lung shot at long distances, always based on speed. Most cup and core bullets will not expand below 1800 fps. Bonded bullets like the fusion, take more target resistance than cup and cores. So that distance where the 308 is a good shot with a broadside double lung shot may be 400 yards then you need more target resistance like the shoulder to get expansion. If the bullet is going too slow for expansion, you will get the same experience you got with the fusions, just pencil on thru with little to no expansion. 300 win mag with its much increased velocity may push that point up to 600 yards but at some point, the bullet slows enough to still need more resistance to expand. Have no idea if that's the actual distances that are needed but it was just an example.
Here is a real world scenario that has happened to me.
My kids usually hunt with a 243. We used 100 grain Remington corelocts. Good sturdy bullets that kill gobs of deer each year. My kids have killed quite a few anywhere from 75 to 150 yards. With broadside shots we would get a pass thru 3/4 times. Moved that stand 1 year so it could be bowhunted. Next 3 shots were at 25 yards or less. None of those 3 gave a complete pass thru, all blew up from going so fast. Broke thru 1 side between ribs and liquified everything down to the diaphragm. Bullet fragments against the skin on the other side. Impact velocity was almost 3000 fps at that range and the damage was extensive. I contemplated loading up some bonded, tougher bullets just for these super close shots to minimize meat damage since they would probably expand but not overexpand/explode like the coreloct. This all should correlate with your experience with the fusion and the gamekings. The fusions should probably be saved for faster cartridges than 308 on whitetails unless its super close or you are shooting for heavy bones like the shoulder. Lighter weight bullets helps too. 150s would be better than 165s.

At 25 yds, you could also try a monolith or partition. The bonded should absolutely do what you're wanting, and I'm sure you thought of the other options at some point, but just making sure that if you saw an 80 gmx, 85 Barnes, or 90 etip on sale cheaper than the bonded offerings, they might be worth a test drive. All depends on your twist obviously, but if you're looking at bonded bullets I figured you're running a sav/rem/ruger barrel anyway .

 

[alsaqr]

165gr bullets are not moving out of your .308 barrel too fast to expand on deer. There is also no way the guy who told you he clocked fusions @ 3,000 fps was talking about 165gr out of a hunting length .308, that's about 250 fps high.

+1

No way is the guy getting such velocities with a .308.

Never bought into the "too fast to expand stuff". Years ago i killed lots of deer using the 150 grain Game King bullet fired at velocities of 2,800 fps to over 3,200 fps from .30-06 and .300 magnum rifles. That bullet always expanded and usually gave a pass through on broadside shots. When the bullet struck a rib on entry there was always a huge hole. Sometimes the inside rib cage on the off side showed an exit hole peppered around with bullet fragments.

 

[DKSDonnie]

I will have to disagree with faster speed equal faster expansion. Distance plays a role.

Too fast and the bullet dosen't have enough time to expand before passing through the vitals.
I am not talking about hitting bone most bullets that hit bone will expand well. I am talking double lung where your only going through soft tissue. On deer sized game.

At longer distances ...over 300yrds the faster is acceptabe because at that distance the projectile has time to slow down to expand properly.

This is what I have been reading about and what i have experianced in the field. To fast under 100yrds especially and you run the risk of just punching a small hole straight through and while it will still be a lethal wound recovery is more difficult because of less blood and farther the distance the animal might be able to travel.

You could say don't use a 308 under 100yrds but that is unreasonable when bullet selection can take care of this situation.

Yes, distance does play a role but not in itself. The further a bullet travels the more it slows down. Hence it slows down in speed! That's why for example I don't use Winchester Ballistic Silvertips on deer anymore out of my 7MM WSM and my 270 WSM. At those speeds, anything under 150-200 yds and that bullets explodes instantly. They recommend these bullets at longer distances for better bullet performance. I've had it happen to me too many times. I will be using Accubonds next year.

 

[Mike472]

Well,
The last 3 deer shot all had small pencile holes straight through the double lung . No blood/hair all traveled a considerable distance. Two not found till the next week.

All shot with 165gr fussions. At about 70yrds

The next week two shot with sierra game kings. One in in the lung and one in neck both expanded nice. The neck shot exit wound was a little bigger than a golf ball. And the lung shot was basball sized.

The fissions were pencile holes. Thats all I got is my personal experiance. I have read other people having the same problem. I just read some other mesage board where other hunts have had the same experiance!








They are poor hunting bullets in my opinion.

I use 165gr because we get some far shots.were in woods abourt 70yrs but can have shots out to 300yrds .

My farthest shot was about 250yrds.


I just won't trust fussions anymore.

Once burned twice learned.

Although i was burned 3 time with theses bullets.
Thought i would post my personal experiance. Can't explain why they failed but I know what I saw.

Your warned use theses at your own risk!

No skin off my nose. I'll stick with sierra game kings.

 

[horsey300]

Higher SD and lower fps never did equal better expansion

 

[marksman13]

I will have to disagree with faster speed equal faster expansion. Distance plays a role.

Too fast and the bullet dosen't have enough time to expand before passing through the vitals.
I am not talking about hitting bone most bullets that hit bone will expand well. I am talking double lung where your only going through soft tissue. On deer sized game.

At longer distances ...over 300yrds the faster is acceptabe because at that distance the projectile has time to slow down to expand properly.

This is what I have been reading about and what i have experianced in the field. To fast under 100yrds especially and you run the risk of just punching a small hole straight through and while it will still be a lethal wound recovery is more difficult because of less blood and farther the distance the animal might be able to travel.

You could say don't use a 308 under 100yrds but that is unreasonable when bullet selection can take care of this situation.

This simply isn't true. Faster bullet speed equals more rapid expansion if all other variables are equal. That is simple physics and math. You can not push a bullet so fast that it does not expand. That's not how the process works.

 

[Mike472]

Well if it wasn't too fast then bullet construction had to be it.

The fussions do not have a nice soft point to help with expansion.

 

[marksman13]

Well if it wasn't too fast then bullet construction had to be it.

The fussions do not have a nice soft point to help with expansion.

I've only shot pigs with Federal Fushions out of my 6.8 SPC and I've been pleased with them. I prefer the Sierra Gamekings, but I've not been disappointed in the Fushions on pigs.

 

[VoodooMountain]

I will have to disagree with faster speed equal faster expansion. Distance plays a role.

Too fast and the bullet dosen't have enough time to expand before passing through the vitals.
I am not talking about hitting bone most bullets that hit bone will expand well. I am talking double lung where your only going through soft tissue. On deer sized game.

At longer distances ...over 300yrds the faster is acceptabe because at that distance the projectile has time to slow down to expand properly.

This is what I have been reading about and what i have experianced in the field. To fast under 100yrds especially and you run the risk of just punching a small hole straight through and while it will still be a lethal wound recovery is more difficult because of less blood and farther the distance the animal might be able to travel.

You could say don't use a 308 under 100yrds but that is unreasonable when bullet selection can take care of this situation.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement but velocity is a factor of time and distance. Impact velocity of 2700 fps has the same effect regardless of the bullets distance from the muzzle.

Velocity is also needed for hydraulic shock to be initiated and usually needs at least around 2600 fps to initiate depending on the bullet (construction, meplat, size) and medium (resistance)
Slowing down the bullet will cause much less bullet disrupt.