Of course, if he dies two weeks later, he won't be able to testify against you.
I use 110gr Hornady Critical Defense, but I'm switching over to plated 148gr double ended wadcutters.
Feeding a J Frame for Concealed Carry
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Of course, if he dies two weeks later, he won't be able to testify against you.
I use 110gr Hornady Critical Defense, but I'm switching over to plated 148gr double ended wadcutters.
RealGun
Member
When "stopping the threat" becomes "stopping this and all future threats". Seems like there is a dose of malice between the two.
RustyShackelford
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Post #74....
Post 74 makes a valid point but in a critical incident, time is a factor.
A handgun round that hits a artery or causes severe blood loss will not always "drop" an attacker/violent thug.
They can still return fire or be aggressive.
Lower torso hits are good, but be fully ready to fire or aim for the head(T zone) if required to stop the threat.
Handgun calibers(.38spl/.380acp to the .44magnum/.50GI/.50AE) are notorious for failing to cause immediate results in lethal force events.
As posted, shot placement/marksmanship is critical but so is carrying potent ammunition.
Post 74 makes a valid point but in a critical incident, time is a factor.
A handgun round that hits a artery or causes severe blood loss will not always "drop" an attacker/violent thug.
They can still return fire or be aggressive.
Lower torso hits are good, but be fully ready to fire or aim for the head(T zone) if required to stop the threat.
Handgun calibers(.38spl/.380acp to the .44magnum/.50GI/.50AE) are notorious for failing to cause immediate results in lethal force events.
As posted, shot placement/marksmanship is critical but so is carrying potent ammunition.
The Cirello (sp) articles I have read said the stake out squad preferred the M1 carbine. They often only had partial head targets and they had problems with bullets skirting the scalp and failing to stop. Jim concluded the full wad cutter profile worked best for their purposes and even had a patent on a design that would feed a full wadcutter in a 1911. Remember, the stake out squad was selected from the NYPD pistol team. They could hit what they shot at.
I agree 100% with "Tony the tiger": full wadcutters in the gun; 135gr Speer GD in the reloads. I prefer the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast WC as my primary load. Just like the snubby is "five for sure" the WC is penetration for sure. If I were to use 158gr semi-wadcutters, I would load them base first. They make a pretty good WC: nose first, high speed video shows them to act like round nose.
The actual effective target area in the pelvis is very small. If available, the best target is the chest area above the nipples. It is where the important plumbing is. It also most likely to be the available target area in a dynamic confrontation from any angle.
I agree 100% with "Tony the tiger": full wadcutters in the gun; 135gr Speer GD in the reloads. I prefer the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast WC as my primary load. Just like the snubby is "five for sure" the WC is penetration for sure. If I were to use 158gr semi-wadcutters, I would load them base first. They make a pretty good WC: nose first, high speed video shows them to act like round nose.
The actual effective target area in the pelvis is very small. If available, the best target is the chest area above the nipples. It is where the important plumbing is. It also most likely to be the available target area in a dynamic confrontation from any angle.
Cocked & Locked
Member
This thread is starting to make me feel a little BLUE. 
Hometeached1
Member
C&L nice J's and Nyclads.
Hullraiser
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My wife's S&W 642 will handle +P but it's loaded with defense low-recoil HP. I forget the brand, federal I believe.
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OP
OP
J-Bar
Member
You guys are cruel! Those are beautiful.
The Hornady 158gr XTP in standard 38 special power is my choice. It has minimal recoil which I find very important. I am far faster with a standard pressure load than a +p and that speed is one of, if not the top priority for myself. They also penetrate well. Something to the tune of 18-19" of gel with 4 layers of denim. Penetration is either the top priority or just behind recoil/shot splits. This round out of a snub does both very well.
It expands but only minimally. It comes out of all testing media that I've seen as a flattened face that slightly expanded out. That gives nearly the same frontal profile of a wadcutter, but at a slightly wider diameter and in a package that reloads fast. Overall, it hits my main priorities best for a snub load. And it's one of the cheaper defensive loads at around $20/25.
It expands but only minimally. It comes out of all testing media that I've seen as a flattened face that slightly expanded out. That gives nearly the same frontal profile of a wadcutter, but at a slightly wider diameter and in a package that reloads fast. Overall, it hits my main priorities best for a snub load. And it's one of the cheaper defensive loads at around $20/25.
FuzzyBunny
Member
Any opinion on the Winchester 38spl
110gr Jacketed-Controlled Expansion loaded to the U.S Treasury Department specs?
15-20% higher than +p at 23,500 C.U.P. in a stainless Model 60 38spl.
Not sure they make them anymore and just have 300 rounds left so I practice with 38spl LRN.
The 110gr I put in for carry as a BUG.
110gr Jacketed-Controlled Expansion loaded to the U.S Treasury Department specs?
15-20% higher than +p at 23,500 C.U.P. in a stainless Model 60 38spl.
Not sure they make them anymore and just have 300 rounds left so I practice with 38spl LRN.
The 110gr I put in for carry as a BUG.
FuzzyBunny
Member
Someone toss me a bone here. Please.
Fuzzybunny, I'd shoot it if I had it but it probably wouldn't be my first choice.
Guessing on your load, I'd say its the load brassfetcher lists under Winchester 110 gr +p+. It expands very very well but penetration is short. I'd rather a bit more penetration at the expense of expansion. I also have a feeling, without ever shooting a +p+ out of an airweight, that recoil would be quite significant. Overall, it's not my dream round, but if that's what I had in plenty, it's what I'd load up, carry, and practice with.
Guessing on your load, I'd say its the load brassfetcher lists under Winchester 110 gr +p+. It expands very very well but penetration is short. I'd rather a bit more penetration at the expense of expansion. I also have a feeling, without ever shooting a +p+ out of an airweight, that recoil would be quite significant. Overall, it's not my dream round, but if that's what I had in plenty, it's what I'd load up, carry, and practice with.
kilibreaux
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Currently carrying Winchester PDX1 Defender .38 special +P 130 grain JHP in a S&W M-642-1 PRO loaded into moon clips.
While it SEEMS like there are many "different" rounds to choose from in the .38 Spl, the truth is they're all very close...chose whatever you find for a decent price.
While it SEEMS like there are many "different" rounds to choose from in the .38 Spl, the truth is they're all very close...chose whatever you find for a decent price.
FuzzyBunny
Member
Thanks Benzy2
I shoot the 158ge LRN very well at coke cans out to 50 yds.
This being a BUG it will probably be fired so close it more than likely will set both our clothes on fire. Plus that +p+ stuff is hard on the old girl but she loves the regular loads.
I shoot the 158ge LRN very well at coke cans out to 50 yds.
This being a BUG it will probably be fired so close it more than likely will set both our clothes on fire. Plus that +p+ stuff is hard on the old girl but she loves the regular loads.
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RealGun
Member
My J frames are a Performance Center Wyatt Deep Cover 637 and a Model 60 Pro Series. I also have a Ruger SP101 that requires similar feeding, all of them rather rude to shoot with full power ammo.
Seeking mostly subsonic but also welcoming controlled recoil, I just bought Gold Dot 130 gr Short Barrel for the .357 and Winchester Defend and Train 130 gr JHP for the 38 Special 637. Both coming from TargetSportsUSA, one of the vendors that has controlled inventory and can tell you what's in or out of stock.
These are not cheap, but I won't quibble too much on low quantities. I use reloads for practice.
Note that I don't shoot 38 Special in any 357 magnum chambers, so I look for other solutions.
Seeking mostly subsonic but also welcoming controlled recoil, I just bought Gold Dot 130 gr Short Barrel for the .357 and Winchester Defend and Train 130 gr JHP for the 38 Special 637. Both coming from TargetSportsUSA, one of the vendors that has controlled inventory and can tell you what's in or out of stock.
These are not cheap, but I won't quibble too much on low quantities. I use reloads for practice.
Note that I don't shoot 38 Special in any 357 magnum chambers, so I look for other solutions.
OP
OP
J-Bar
Member
I attempted to summarize the responses this morning. Those of you who listed just one cartridge made it easy. Those of you who listed more than one cartridge provided interesting reading, but I took the first one you mentioned as your primary choice...one vote per person, right?
Even then, the multiple bullet weight possibilities made for too many columns, so I finally just looked at brand names.
To this point, here's what the thread is saying, from most frequent on down:
Speer Gold Dot
Hornady Critical Defense
handloaded cast WC or SWC
Winchester JHP
Remington Golden Saber
...then all the other brands.
If we get a bunch of additional responses that shifts the frequency then I will attempt another summary.
This is not an attempt to end the discussion. I find it very interesting and I appreciate the response the question has prompted. So feel free to continue.
Even then, the multiple bullet weight possibilities made for too many columns, so I finally just looked at brand names.
To this point, here's what the thread is saying, from most frequent on down:
Speer Gold Dot
Hornady Critical Defense
handloaded cast WC or SWC
Winchester JHP
Remington Golden Saber
...then all the other brands.
If we get a bunch of additional responses that shifts the frequency then I will attempt another summary.
This is not an attempt to end the discussion. I find it very interesting and I appreciate the response the question has prompted. So feel free to continue.
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RealGun
Member
I guess you noticed that every topic can become an excuse for more gun porn...as much about sexy grips as nice guns.
OP
OP
J-Bar
Member
Thank goodness! No complaints here!I guess you noticed that every topic can become an excuse for more gun porn...as much about sexy grips as nice guns.
fastbolt
Member
Interesting. You really trying to do something like make a spreadsheet of opinions and experiences?
I remember wasting a fair number of years trying to find the "best" .38 Spl loads for my first J-frame as a young cop. Time that would've been far better spent on more range time set aside for training & practice. It wasn't until I'd become a LE firearms instructor that I realized the importance of focusing more on me, than the gun ... or the ammo.
In my previous post I didn't list the specific brands of loads I presently use (and it's certainly changed over time, but more as an ebb & flow instead of leaving one load never to return to using it).
In recent months my various J-frames have been loaded with 135gr Speer GDHP +P, Winchester 130gr RA38B (also called PDX1) +P & Remington 125gr HPJ/BJHP (Golden Sabre) +P ... mostly.
Why the different loads? Just depended what box of whichever load was closest at hand when loading guns and speedstrips or speedloaders at any particular moment.
Do I have a favorite? Sure, whichever one I have the most access to at any given time.
Yes, I've carried different ammo in the different guns, as well as different ammo in any particular gun compared to what was being carried in some speedstrips or speedloaders I'd grabbed to put in my pocket.
I shoot all of the different ammo at the range for quals, training and practice drills, and quite often mix them to varying degrees (depending on availability of new and recycled carry loads) in my guns, pockets and speedstrips while at the range.
Now, my less frequently carried loads seem to be Speer 125gr GDHP +P and either Rem or Win 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P ... and then there's the couple of brands of the standard pressure 110gr JHP's I set aside for my 37-2 snub, as I won't subject it to +P loads for range use.
I forget, do you even own a J-frame snub? Are you an experienced & skilled DA/DAO revolver shooter?
If the answer is no to both questions, instead of putting the cart before the horse and miring yourself down in "research" about perceived or actual ammo differences, consider getting some good training & quality trigger time in with whatever model of J you favor.
After all, the model and weight of the J you own & use may have a very real influence on your selection of ammo, as will your abilities and skillset (especially regarding recoil management, controllability & consistently demonstrated practical accuracy).
In a way, it's often easier for folks who are limited to ammo choices and selection ... depending on market availability, agency policies, etc... since it frees them from the distraction of trying to determine and evaluate any subtle distinctions in ballistic "performance", enabling them to focus more on shooter skills.
Even with all the very good quality modern hollowpoint loads I have access to using in my J's, if I were required to only use standard pressure 158gr LSWC loads starting tomorrow, I'd not lose all that much in the way of sleep. (Okay, being limited to only 158gr LRN would bother me a little bit.
)
OP
OP
J-Bar
Member
I forget, do you even own a J-frame snub? Are you an experienced & skilled DA/DAO revolver shooter?
Wow, Fastbolt, you are even more OCD than I am! (No offense intended!)
I have been shooting 50 + years, recently the missus and I got our concealed carry licenses, and we both carry Js because of their size and convenience; hers is a Model 36, mine a Model 60. We both like the fact that if something nasty happened, she could grab mine and could use it instinctively.
I have cast my own bullets and reloaded all my ammo for cowboy action for many years, but will be relying on commercial ammo for the carry guns. My present inventory of "Law Enforcement Only" Federal Hydrashoks will not last forever.
My question was simply to take advantage of the expertise on this forum, from shooters who have been carrying longer than we have. I did not expect to choose an exact load from the responses, but it is comforting that experienced shooters think highly of certain brands like Speer and Hornady. We will try those in our range tests. And it has been an interesting ride. Thanks for your contribution.
Wow, Fastbolt, you are even more OCD than I am!
(No offense intended!)I have been shooting 50 + years, recently the missus and I got our concealed carry licenses, and we both carry Js because of their size and convenience; hers is a Model 36, mine a Model 60. We both like the fact that if something nasty happened, she could grab mine and could use it instinctively.
I have cast my own bullets and reloaded all my ammo for cowboy action for many years, but will be relying on commercial ammo for the carry guns. My present inventory of "Law Enforcement Only" Federal Hydrashoks will not last forever.
My question was simply to take advantage of the expertise on this forum, from shooters who have been carrying longer than we have. I did not expect to choose an exact load from the responses, but it is comforting that experienced shooters think highly of certain brands like Speer and Hornady. We will try those in our range tests. And it has been an interesting ride. Thanks for your contribution.
RealGun
Member
All interesting, but I think the small guns need attention to ammo detail to make them manageable and the tool of a satisfying range experience. I am not cavalier at all about using the same ammo as my bigger guns of the same caliber.
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