Felony or not? What is the "real" serial number?

[Elkins45]

I have an opportunity to buy a S&W 1917 revolver locally. It appears to be a military production gun except for the curious fact that the lanyard hole is plugged and there is no US ARMY nor serial number on the butt. There are numbers stamped elsewhere on the gun (barrel, cylinder, yoke) but not all match.

My understanding is that the true SN of an older S&W revolver is the number on the butt, since all the other parts are removable. I'm of the opinion that possessing this gun could potentially be illegal because it might be construed to be "illegally defaced" or whatever the correct legal terminology is for a gun that's had the SN removed.

I've done a little research and there seems to be a procedure by which one can appeal to the BATF to have the gun restamped with an ATF SN, but I'm not sure a "frankengun" would be worth the hassle.

Any thoughts?

 

[jrmiddleton425]

It would help if you could post those numbers and where they are. Military S&W revolvers may have their serial number in a different place (the U.S. Navy ones were marked like that). EDIT: the numbers on the cylinder and yoke are assembly numbers. The number on the barrel is the gun's serial number.

 

[CoRoMo]

...possessing this gun could potentially be illegal...

Unless you obtain it in an illegal manner or you are the one who removed a serial number, having possession of a gun that is illegal contraband -while you have no knowledge of it being contraband- isn't illegal.

 

[Old Fuff]

In the case of Smith & Wesson model 1917 revolvers the serial number was stamped on the butt, rear face of the cylinder, on the rear/bottom of the barrel and inside the stock panels. A number stamped on the frame behind the yoke cutout and under the barrel is not a serial number!

Uncle Sam's Army wanted the number to match the contracts they placed, but since this was a new model both the company serial number and the Army's contract no. were the same.

Colt 1917 revolvers have different numbers, and the company number is stamped on the frame behind the crane. You have to swing out the cylinder to see it. Only the Lord knows how many Colts have been registered or recorded using the wrong number.

Unless you live in a solid gun control state or city I don't think anyone will make a big issue about the lack of a number on the butt as long as the ones on the cylinder and barrel are clear and unaltered. If you buy it and have to register it you may have to point out to someone where the number is.

 

[WardenWolf]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. A lot of military firearms have had their serial number altered while under Uncle Sam's possession. It's perfectly legal for them to do, and for you to own.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I have an opportunity to buy a S&W 1917 revolver locally. It appears to be a military production gun except for the curious fact that the lanyard hole is plugged and there is no US ARMY nor serial number on the butt. ...

...I'm of the opinion that possessing this gun could potentially be illegal...

Yes, it does appear that possession of the gun is illegal. Here's the applicable statute, 18 USC 922(k) (emphasis added):

....(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce....

Whoever is now in possession appears to be in violation of the statute. And if you buy the gun and receive it, you would appear to be in violation of the statute.

...I've done a little research and there seems to be a procedure by which one can appeal to the BATF to have the gun restamped with an ATF SN, but I'm not sure a "frankengun" would be worth the hassle....

I believe ATF used to have a procedure for doing that, but I don't know if they still do.

In any case, the revolver in current form is contraband. Unless it for some reason had extraordinary historical value, it doesn't seem to be worth either the risk or the trouble.

...Unless you obtain it in an illegal manner or you are the one who removed a serial number, having possession of a gun that is illegal contraband -while you have no knowledge of it being contraband- isn't illegal...

And exactly how do you reach that bizarre conclusion in light of the language of the statute?

Let's have a look at what some courts have said:

• U.S. v. Sullivan, 455 F.3d 248 (4th Cir., 2006) at 261 (emphasis added):

  ...18 U.S.C. § 922(k) makes it a crime "for any person knowingly . . . to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce." The defendant must know of the alteration. United States v. Haywood, 363 F.3d 200, 206 (3d Cir.2003) (collecting cases). Knowledge of defacement of the serial number may be inferred where the defendant has possessed the gun under conditions under which an ordinary man would have inspected the pistol and discovered the absence of a serial number.....

  
  
• United States v. Haile (11th Cir., 2012, No. 10-15965):

  ...generally, "[k]nowledge of defacement of the serial number may be inferred where the defendant has possessed the gun under conditions under which an ordinary man would have inspected [it] and discovered the absence of a serial number."...

Here, of course, the OP has indicated that he is aware that the serial number of the revolver is missing.

Violation of 18 USC 922(k) may be punished by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus conviction will result in a lifetime loss of gun rights).

 

[Frank Ettin]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. A lot of military firearms have had their serial number altered while under Uncle Sam's possession. It's perfectly legal for them to do, and for you to own.

Do you have a scintilla of evidence or proper legal authority to support that contention?

 

[deadin]

On S&W revolvers the yoke numbers are assembly numbers and are meaningless. The barrel and cylinder should match the butt number, but in this case you can't know because the butt number is gone. If the barrel and cylinder don't match, it is definitely a parts gun. If they do match there is a chance that it "might" be the number that was removed from the butt, but no way to prove it. I doubt very much that the BATF would be interested in assigning a serial to such a gun. I think the procedure is for the owner to send them the gun in question and they will either serialize it or declare it contraband and destroy it. I have no idea what the costs involved would be, but probably more than the gun is worth.
I think I would not want to buy a gun and then hope to get it blessed. Let the current owner go through the procedure and then buy it if he gets it back.....

 

[joeschmoe]

deleted by me

 

[Old Fuff]

A lot of military firearms have had their serial number altered while under Uncle Sam's possession.

Do you have a scintilla of evidence or proper legal authority to support that contention?

It is true, and recorded in several reference books, that a number of 1911A1 .45 pistols had they're original serial numbers obliterated while they were being arsenal refurbished were renumbered.

A large number of Smith & Wesson .38 Victory Model revolvers were modified to use a new hammer-block safety, and the serial number prefix changed from V to SV

However these changes were done by or for the US Military Services, and I presume were exempt from the quoted statutes.

 

[joeschmoe]

However these changes were done by or for the US Military Services, and I presume were exempt from the quoted statutes.

No, they are not exempt. They had papers and numbers when they left US inventory to the civilian market. The number on them when they entered the civilian market is their serial number (doesn't matter what the numbers were before). I don't know of any guns sold by the US without serial numbers. IIRC, the law (since the 1900's) required them to add them in order to be sold. You'd better have the paperwork to back up such a claim, otherwise it's a felony to posses.

 

[Old Fuff]

You misunderstood my comment. What I met was that the service, and/or the personal doing the work for them, would not be charged. Clearly no firearms were sold as surplus to the civilian market without a serial number.

 

[Jim K]

In the case of guns made by the government (e.g., at Springfield Armory) or on contract for the government, the legal manufacturer is the government. And the manufacturer can remove, alter, or change the serial number and/or any other markings as it chooses. So a government arsenal was not exempt from the law; it was the government and the government was the manufacturer.

I have heard that at one time, ATF or its predecessor agencies would allow a gunsmith who had removed the serial number incidental to work being done (like rebluing) could apply for a new serial number and stamp the gun accordingly. But I have not heard of that actually being done for many years, so I wouldn't count on it unless you can get a letter to that effect from ATF. Even so, that was not a blanket provision for any obliterated or altered serial number; it covered only one specific situation.

Jim

 

[DaisyCutter]

Unless there is a ground, filed, or welded area where a S/N used to be, then it hasn't been intentionally altered.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Unless there is a ground, filed, or welded area where a S/N used to be, then it hasn't been intentionally altered.

What gives you that idea? Certainly the courts don't agree:

• U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993):

  ...We turn to defendant's argument that his conviction for violating 18 U.S.C. 922(k) was also based on insufficient evidence. Defendant argues the government failed to sufficiently show that the revolver's serial number was removed, obliterated, or altered. He asserts the statute does not reach serial numbers that are still readable.
  
  Police officers testified that the serial number was obliterated. In addition, an expert in firearms and tool mark examination testified the revolver's serial number was partially obscured or obliterated. The examiner also noted that it was possible one or two additional serial numbers were completely obliterated. Based on the clear language of 922(k), we reject defendant's argument that the statute does not reach the firearm recovered by the police in this case. The evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction, and we AFFIRM the jury's verdict....

  
  
• U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (Fed. 1st Cir., 2002)(emphasis added):

  ...As for the evidence, that was clearly sufficient once it is understood that any alteration that works against legibility is enough; ...The pistol was presented to the jury. The case agent testified at trial that he could read the six digits of the serial number but with difficulty. At oral argument, Adams's counsel asked that this court examine the original pistol, and we now report the results.
  
  ...
  
  Of course, judgment as to the degree of impairment was for the jury. But a reasonable jury could easily conclude that this pistol had been altered so as to make it appreciably more difficult to read the serial number. Indeed, a reasonable jury could hardly reach any other conclusion...

 

[rswartsell]

Following with great interest as I know of a similar article. Good job of providing clarity Frank.

If there was ever an occasion to take "The High Road", this is it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Tons of military surplus rifles have mismatched serial numbers all over them. There is one official serial number (on a rifle, it's on the receiver). I would think one of the serial numbers on the revolver would be the official serial number - it's just a matter of which one.

 

[deadin]

The "official" serial number on S&W revolvers is the one on the butt (Or on the front strap of the frame on certain models). The other "matching" serials are on parts (barrel and cylinder, etc.) that can be changed out and therefore can't be used for absolute identification.

 

[Elkins45]

Well, it's a moot point now because somebody else bought the gun.

I asked the seller about it and here's how he responded:

The number on the butt for a 1917 or commercial version was never a serial number.* That number denoted a particular gun out of a run of guns...for instance*there might be on two lines, the number at top* 750...on the bottom 317 which would be the 317th gun out of a run of 750.* I have a colt 1917 and a SW 1917 and both are marked this way while the actual serial numbers are in the crane area behind the cylinder.* The hole that has been filled in is from a lanyard ring post so there was never a serial number on the butt.

This explanation doesnt seem to jive with the info shared in this thread. Personally, I'm glad it's not my problem now.

 

[Old Fuff]

The seller is "sort of right," but doesn't understand the difference between Smith & Wesson and Colt 1917 numbers on the butt vs. serial numbers.

The number on the butt was supposed to be related to contracts the Army placed with both makers. These numbers started at No. 1 for both. In the case of Smith & Wesson the 1917 was a new model so the company's serial number also started at No. 1,

However at Colt the 1917 models they made had higher company serial numbers because they incorporated the production into their regular New Service line. The company serial number was stamped on the frame, behind the crane cut-out so you had to swing out the cylinder to see it. For the record, the Army No. 1 (stamped on the butt) had a Colt Co. serial number in the 149,000 range, with a prototype shipped approximately 3 months prior to regular production was numbered 143,809 with no Army No.

Anyone who owns a military 1917 Colt should record in their records the number stamped in the crane cut-out as the Colt serial number, and the one on the butt as the Army Number. On Smith & Wesson's the number on the butt represents both the company and Army serial number.

Clear as mud?

 

[jconnor]

So according to the cases quoted in post 15, if i duracoat a gun camo, i could be commiting a felony?

 

[Sam1911]

So according to the cases quoted in post 15, if i duracoat a gun camo, i could be commiting a felony?

Sure could, if your manage to obscure, fill in, or other wise make less legible the serial number. Careful how much finish you apply.

 

[gc70]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. A lot of military firearms have had their serial number altered while under Uncle Sam's possession. It's perfectly legal for them to do, and for you to own.

Do you have a scintilla of evidence or proper legal authority to support that contention?

Around 190,000 M1 Garands were produced with duplicate serial numbers when the government assigned overlapping serial number ranges to the various manufacturers. There was no general effort to give unique numbers to the rifles with duplicate serial numbers. I don't know about the military's legal authority to modify serial numbers, but the letter "A" was stamped near the serial number on one rifle when local units received two rifles with the same serial number. As to the legality of owning a Garand with such a modified serial number, the military has transferred such guns to the CMP, which has sold them to civilians.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Around 190,000 M1 Garands were produced with duplicate serial numbers when the government assigned overlapping serial number ranges to the various manufacturers. There was no general effort to give unique numbers to the rifles with duplicate serial numbers. I don't know about the military's legal authority to modify serial numbers, but the letter "A" was stamped near the serial number on one rifle when local units received two rifles with the same serial number. As to the legality of owning a Garand with such a modified serial number, the military has transferred such guns to the CMP, which has sold them to civilians.

Okay, but none of that has any application to the subject of this thread, a Smith & Wesson revolver without a serial number.

 

[roadchoad]

It seems that the act of destroying the markings is itself illegal, regardless of intent. In the case of refinishing a gun and in the process destroying the serial number markings, can one just restamp the numbers to make the gun legal to own again?