FFFFg in pocket pistols

[44 Dave]

Do any of you real black powder shooters use 4fg in pocket pistols?
Today I loaded a '62 Police with 2 chambers of FFF and 3 with FFFF , I could tell the FFFF had a little more recoil. I had max-loaded the chambers and greased over. There did not seem to be any noticeable difference compared to POA at 12 yards.
As measured I had to use slightly less FFFF as it does not compress as much as FFF.
It was only 5 degrees and a good breeze blowing so I only fired what I had charged at (warm) home.

 

[rodwha]

I intend on getting an Uberti Police and almost certainly will try Swiss 4F, though I'd absolutely use 3F Olde E and/or T7 first as I have it on hand.

I'd certainly like to see a comparison of the same brand/type of powder in 3 vs 4F across a chronograph, as well as how it groups.

 

[44 Dave]

Don't have access to a chronograph, but do plan on doing the pine board penetration tests.

 

[J-Bar]

I'm curious what the actual powder charge was, in grains...

 

[44 Dave]

I'm curious what the actual powder charge was, in grains...

Always thought measuring bp is like "horse shoes and hand grenades"!
I used Lee dippers 1.5 cc. (1+5) wiped off with a little depression to fill the chamber so the ball seated just flush.
There is .5 gr. weight difference in 1 cc. of the FFFF and the FFF I have and none of those adjustable powder measures agree So the answer is "about 25 gr.

 

[J-Bar]

Good enough. I never owned one of those and did not know how much the chamber will hold.

Thanks.

 

[[email protected]]

I have a sheriff model and was wander, I think 4F I'd ground finer and I think burn a little faster this giving a more complete powder burn in the shorter barrel.
1. Someone know of a reloading data, manual, that speak about these matters? 2. Or can you simple upload the page - article
3. What is the downside to using 4f in a sheriff model. 5. How easy is it to find 4f in a substitute for BP?
6. Name and maker please.
Thanks Guys, in advance.

 

[BullSlinger]

In NAA and Freedom Arms 22 cal cap and ball revolvers I use FFFF. Have not looked at the instruction manuals in a while but I seem to remember that is what is recommended.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I'd stick to FFFg in a '62 .36. Now for a .31 cal gun? Maybe FFFFg is the way to go. Perhaps not.

 

[44 Dave]

For target shooting I won't "waste" my FFFFg, but I do carry the Police, and for that I might opt for the hottest loads possible, hotter than those 380s! Glad to find out that the POA is the same.

 

[entropy]

I used 4F in a '49 Baby Dragoon, and yes, it had more recoil than with 3F, and that's because since the individual grains are smaller, there is more weight in the cylinder than with 3F. Powder measures throw by volume, not weight. The smaller the individual grains, the more weight you can get into the same volume.

 

[gec]

I use 4f goex in my Wells Fargo. 10 grains volume under a round ball. I started using it after seeing Duelist1954's video on shooting the 1849 pocket. works fine.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I've used 4f extensively, especially in flintlock pistols. Works fine. I'm particularly fond of it in target pistols of .36 caliber.

 

[whughett]

Always thought measuring bp is like "horse shoes and hand grenades"!
I used Lee dippers 1.5 cc. (1+5) wiped off with a little depression to fill the chamber so the ball seated just flush.
There is .5 gr. weight difference in 1 cc. of the FFFF and the FFF I have and none of those adjustable powder measures agree So the answer is "about 25 gr.

There isn't a 1.5 dipper in my set. The Lee slide shows 1.0 dipper equals 15.9 in 3f and 14.9 in 4f, the .5 dipper equals 8.0 in 3F and 7.4 4f. So the combined total weights equal 23.9 in 3f and 22.3 in 4f in volume. I use the 1.6 dipper for a load of 23.5 in my Colt police, the slide shows a load of 23.8 in 4f. Not a whole lot of difference IMO.

 

[[email protected]]

So you don't think one would get a more complete powder burn in a shorter barrel? I think I hear you saying it's not enough to make enough of a difference to worry about. Sure wish I had a chronograph. What is the best application for 4f, what is it designed for, flash pan powder for a flint lock?

 

[44 Dave]

There isn't a 1.5 dipper in my set. The Lee slide shows 1.0 dipper equals 15.9 in 3f and 14.9 in 4f, the .5 dipper equals 8.0 in 3F and 7.4 4f. So the combined total weights equal 23.9 in 3f and 22.3 in 4f in volume. I use the 1.6 dipper for a load of 23.5 in my Colt police, the slide shows a load of 23.8 in 4f. Not a whole lot of difference IMO.

Whughett, Isn't the Lee slide rule an approximation to get close to the actual weight (smokeless) This brings us to weight/volume with black powder. With so many different black powders I have found the Lee slide rule a rough guess. The 3F I used is 15.1/1.0 dipper.

 

[rodwha]

So you don't think one would get a more complete powder burn in a shorter barrel? I think I hear you saying it's not enough to make enough of a difference to worry about. Sure wish I had a chronograph. What is the best application for 4f, what is it designed for, flash pan powder for a flint lock?

4F was found to be used in the .44 cal Hazard's Pistol Powder cartridges from the Civil War. A curator from a museum took apart many BP cartridges to put them on display and found even large calibers had 4F and some with even finer powder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

There isn't a 1.5 dipper in my set. The Lee slide shows 1.0 dipper equals 15.9 in 3f and 14.9 in 4f, the .5 dipper equals 8.0 in 3F and 7.4 4f. So the combined total weights equal 23.9 in 3f and 22.3 in 4f in volume. I use the 1.6 dipper for a load of 23.5 in my Colt police, the slide shows a load of 23.8 in 4f. Not a whole lot of difference IMO.

Take everything the Lee slide rule shows with a grain of sand. First off, different brands of powder have different densities. The Lee slide rule only shows 'Black FG', 'Black FFG', etc. No mention is made of the brand. I have taken the trouble to actually weigh some of the charges thrown by the various dippers for charges I commonly use in cartridges. In each case, the slide rule was off from my measurements. If you want to know how much a specific dipper throws of a particular brand and granulation, weigh it. Forget the grains/volume baloney. Yes, all powders, Smokeless and Black are portioned out by powder measures by volume, not weight. But if you want to know the actual charge a dipper throws, weigh it.

 

[robhof]

Indeed many of the pistol paper cartridges used 4F, but they also used relatively reduced loads for easy loading and to conserve powder. I've often used 4F in my ROA's, but even the Ruger manuel says any granulation can be used, and yes there is a definite felt difference in recoil. Since real black is hard to find around here I don't routinely use it any more. I wouldn't recommend heavy loads in large caliber Italian or Spanish clones however.

 

[Hanshi]

Small pistols with limited space for BP should be okay with 4F. But with Swiss and OE available, why?

 

[rodwha]

Small pistols with limited space for BP should be okay with 4F. But with Swiss and OE available, why?

I certainly don't see a need in my .44/.45 cal pistols, but I suppose I can see why one might in a pocket model with a smaller chamber. A couple of fellas have claimed their .31 ball bounced off of wood at close range. Hard to imagine that being very useful.

 

[whughett]

Take everything the Lee slide rule shows with a grain of sand. First off, different brands of powder have different densities. The Lee slide rule only shows 'Black FG', 'Black FFG', etc. No mention is made of the brand. I have taken the trouble to actually weigh some of the charges thrown by the various dippers for charges I commonly use in cartridges. In each case, the slide rule was off from my measurements. If you want to know how much a specific dipper throws of a particular brand and granulation, weigh it. Forget the grains/volume baloney. Yes, all powders, Smokeless and Black are portioned out by powder measures by volume, not weight. But if you want to know the actual charge a dipper throws, weigh it.

Yes I know all of this, and no I don't want to know the weight by weight, as it concerns black powder. I use the dippers for speed and convenience, don't really care what the weight by weight is. There is a reason black powder measures are graduated in 5 grain increments. After 40+ years of hand loading rifle and handgun ammo, countless hours at the bench sizing and lubing bullets, fussing with 1/10 grain loads tailored for a specific rifle or hand gun, cleaning brass, trimming brass, annealing brass, the simplicity of the cap and ball revolver is the reason I now shoot them weekly, and just as accurately, paper only. Not gonna complicate it by worrying about a grain or two of the charge, by weight or volume. Just saying, and with all due respect to those that like fussing.

 

[44 Dave]

A .36 isn't going to bounce off ! Thought I would try a penetration test and took a 2x12 scrap to the range, both the 3F and 4F went clean through an 1 1/2 pine. May try something thicker.

 

[rodwha]

A .36 isn't going to bounce off ! Thought I would try a penetration test and took a 2x12 scrap to the range, both the 3F and 4F went clean through an 1 1/2 pine. May try something thicker.

I've not read of an account of a .36 bouncing off, but I've read a few of a .31 doing so.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'm thinking a dipper may be made with a cartridge case glued to a stick. Cut down the cartridge case for the desired grain measurement.