NAA Companion

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Aint nottin new, ya jus dont know about it yet!

Want fun? Go to tha hospital with tha mann for mri and carry tha BIG tool bag while he undresses. I mean tha iron.

Now stand in corridor with 30 pounds of iron INCLUDIN TWO shirt pockett NAAs whistlin

Ya aint NEVER seen so much iron comin out!

But yep! He DO know how ta load em right!
 
So, spill it. What's he load 'em with?

Right now I'm using the NAA bullets that I got with the gun and 3.5 grains of shotgun powder from some target loads (the only smokeless I had) and it goes "bang!" real nice and doesn't seem to hurt it, but I'd rather have a second opinion...
 
Hey, Z, you gotta chronograph. You really need to give us some numbers. :D Are you measuring the charge by volume? Just wonderin'. Be a pain to have to weigh each charge, but might be prudent, don't know. I have a Lee powder scoop set, but I don't even know if it goes down to one grain of Bullseye, LOL!

If you're shooting a shotgun powder out of a field or target load, chances are it's about Green Dot speed, which is pretty close to Bullseye.
 
Hi!
His current loading is AA2 backed by a pinch of Swiss Null B. Amounts? I'll have ta ask!
 
Awesome. I was actually planning on asking you, after things have quieted down, how much it'd cost for Jule to do all the stuff I'm talking about (nipples, reaming, etc.).

Does he got any archived chrono data or anything from how the other powders did? How about Power Pistol or IMR Hi-Skor 800X? Those are the only powders I have, and I'd be loathe to add yet another. Has he ever tried the 40 gr bullets that are meant for handloading .22 centerfire varmint loads, or pulled .22 LRs?
 
He dont use tha lead bullets at all, ina shed out back here is DRUMS of kindknox geletin fer bullet testin, and he settled ona machined all copper CUTTING/CRUSHING point with a hollow inside fer extra powder capacity.

Yep, keeps records of EVERTHIN, and theres data on hp38, AA2, 231, likes tha ball powders causa density/energy.
 
Interesting. What kinda penetration did he get with the solid copper ones? If it was more than 13", think he'd be willing to sell any of them?

I really gotta get a chrono so I can test out Power Pistol and 800-X, though. Both are extremely good all around powders. And 800-X has the craziest pressure to power ratio I've ever seen. In .40 cal, it can get the same velocity as any other powder, with 2/3rds or less pressure.
 
40 grain copper bullet at 1300 through four layers of denim gets ya between 11 and a half ta 15 inches.

What he calls an icepick with a LONG needle.

In Big REAL guns he considers tha 12 inch thing (On people) a pile of it. But for THIS thing, he wants ta puch through anythin hard or soft. Mind ya, it CUTS a full caliber hole. Mattera fact ya got ta handles em real gingerlike cause they SHARP!

Afore ya goes and orders any, lemme see if he's got anyloose ta spare, ta test out.

Ifin he aint, how many ya want? Determines price. And AINT cheap, individually machined. I'd ask for 25-50were i you cause that gets tha price down.

He said earlier, ifin ya go through a little more loadin procedure, and tha bullets are grooved for it, loctite stud&bearing seal makes tha pressure push way up afore they release, says with right smokeless load ya can get 1400/1450.

Tha manns a whiz!

Oh! Ya ALSO need tha tubes ta let ya use primers!

He's got one, its a THREE shot .32 and a steel frame Remmie .31 thats now a .40 three shot with some super stainless cylinder and primer tubes for smokeless thats just unreal for velocity/energy.

I'll ask about yer powder ya mentioned.
 
I'm not going to argue with THE MANN, but after running some numbers on how well bullets do after penetrating through an arm first, I'm starting to think 12" is actually way too little for me. Need more like 15" just to penetrate 3" of arm (forearm would be angled if someone's pointing a gun at you or about to stab you), then the chest front-to-back. To be able to smash the spine after penetrating an arm and then the chest, you need more like 18". And that's assuming the bullet doesn't hit a forearm bone.

Skin adds a lot of resistance. General rule is that the first layer of skin is a freebie. After that, exiting from the body or a limb costs you 3-4" of penetration, and re-entering costs 2".

Sure, you've got more shots in case one hits an arm or something, but I want every single one to be as effective as possible. You never know which one is "the bullet." I just keep thinking of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. Dove fired a bullet that genuinely had Platt's name on it. But because it hit an arm first, it stopped 1" short of nailing the guy's heart. That bullet did kill Platt, but not fast enough to save two lives (not to mention a groin and a neck, too).

It's almost enough to make me give up on expanding ammo in pistols altogether!

Of course, you might also say "so aim around the gosh darned arm!" Well, the truth is... I'm a lousy shot. "So practice!" you might answer. I do practice as much as I can, but I'm still not that good. I can nail a bullseye at most ranges if I've got enough time, but if I have to hurry, all I'm really capable of is minute-of-torso out to 20 feet.

And I'm starting to see why Jule considers cap-and-ball revolvers to be perfectly functional carry pieces, wow! With a cartridge gun, you'd have all kinds of problems with primer pockets and case head ruptures and shattered cases, plus recoil spring weight in an auto!

You think he might actually approve of the mod I had done on my Glock 23? http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1028467&postcount=17 Exactly the same thing Clark had done, TIG welded and re-cut feed ramp. .44 magnum powder charge in a .40 S&W case, holy poop! :eek: According to my estimates, I'd be able to get a 200 gr pill to over 1,400 FPS, or a 135 gr bullet to break 2,000 FPS, if I replicated Clark's shenannigans! :what:

It'd definitely be interesting to get Clark and Jule together to talk about maximum power loads...

Anyway though, I'm not looking to buy any just yet. I'm still saving up money for a Companion first! Probably a chrono too.

But just so I know how much I'm going to have to save, could you see how much it'd cost to ream out the chambers of 2 NAA Super Companion cylinders, have small pistol primer (maybe even small rifle instead, since those are thicker and'll hold in the pressure better?) nipples made for both, any modifications to the mini itself he thinks would be a good idea, and then 50 of them bullets? Prices on all of those things individually, of course. Man, I gotta grow a money tree or something.

And on the powder, Clark seems to say that Power Pistol and HiSkor 800-X have the best pressure to power ratios of any pistol powders. They're both also very well-behaved, and won't spike in pressure until you get way up there.

Thanks a ton!
 
Hi!

FBI thing, jus like other original FBI inventions (TestiLYING) etc. Hmmm off course , but ya cant blame a bullet fer bad tactics&stupid mistakes.

Dont know this Clark guy, DO know THA MANN has real copper crusher&piezo electric presure testin here, yup, really!

And i DID write difference between little&big guns. THa MANN has also around tha world been in real honest ta hanna stand up gunfights, none o that matter cause its off tha point. Ya pays yer money and believes yer own personal pundits. (Word of tha day! Yup being educated in ALL ways,) otherwise tha MANN told me he'd just call himself Clint, and me Clyde. (Tha orangutang) I's gettin POLISHED! One day i'll be holdin my pinkie out when drinkin tea and say things like; Another biscuit old boy? :)

All tha mods ya asked about, around 70.00 with tha bullets included.

And thanks fer askin!
 
yep, but you can blame a bad bullet for bad penetration in a real-world scenario.

Would a mini modded such still be able to eat NAA's blackpowder loads?

Or better, primer and birthday-candle-slice indoor loads?

I may not wait for the .32 mini.
 
Are you measuring the charge by volume? Just wonderin'

Crikey, I leave this thread alone for a day and I'm twleve pages behind!

Anyway, I load by volume. Since the manual stateth that the little yellow scoop that comes with the thing holds "four grains" of black powder, I fill it to about the 3.5 mark and load. I have no idea what the weight is as I don't have a powder scale. The only scale I do have only has a resolution of .1 grams, so that probably isn't going to help us much...

Anyway, the shotgun powder is pretty slow burning stuff compared to pistol powders, methinks, and I'd be a lot more cautious about loading that much of a faster burning powder.
 
70 bucks is a great price. How much of that is the bullets? I'm also wondering now how much it'd cost for say 25 of the real sharp bullets, and then 75 more of ones that are the same weight and everything, but are less labor intensive to make, for the sole purpose of chrono testing.

Just as a note, the 12" thing actually comes from another guy who's been there, done that, and has the T-shirt. Originally, the FBI basically just tried the maximum energy approach with a bigger cartridge (10mm), but zero testing.

Then along came Martin Fackler, who'd served as a combat medic in Vietnam, then went on to get an M.D. because that's the only way he could get anyone to listen to him and get other doctors to stop butchering their patients (long story). It was Fackler's advice that led to the FBI's penetration requirement of 12" to 18" (Fackler himself says 12.5" to 14" is the optimum in bare gel, 13" to 16" through 4 layer denim), and also the development of the .40 S&W.

Fackler saw firsthand what happens to men right when they're shot, minutes after, hours after, days after, weeks after, and years after, in his career. And he said that with handguns, big heavy bullets at moderate speed that make big deep holes are the best way to put men down and keep them down.

Basically, Fackler sees all handguns the same way Jule looks at the NAA Companion. An icepick with a real long needle, that the best you can hope from them is a deep caliber-width hole.

Also, gelatin is really misleading, because the tears in gelatin barely have anything to do with the amount of wounding in living tissue. Most jello testers say the tears only tell you the size of the temporary cavity but even that isn't true. The temporary cavity is bigger than the tears.

If you want to see the actual size of the actual hole which would be left behind in living elastic tissues, the best tissue simulant to use is a special mix of "transparent gel candle" stuff. Of course, the actual medium you'd use has as much to do with a candle, as ballistic gel has with a jello mold. 13% kraton and 87% white paraffin oil (or it may be 15/85, the article is kinda badly done...) will replicate the penetration of ballistic gel, and also humans. Also, I believe the gel candle blocks are more highly reusable, since you can simply melt them down and recast the block after shooting it a few times. http://www.travma.org.tr/pdfs/9.2/TJTES.9.2.5.pdf

Personally, I'm now starting to think Fackler's opinion on energy at handgun levels was due to his personal experiences. As a combat medic, he only saw people being shot with FMJ ammunition, and as a surgeon, he only saw people several minutes or hours after they'd been shot. Recent research, especially the stuff by our own Michael Courtney, suggests that the immediate reaction to being shot is more dependent on energy than previously believed. A pressure wave (which correlates with energy, and distance from CNS structures of the shot) of sufficient magnitude can damage the central nervous system. However, Fackler's research into the same phenomenon also suggests that the damage is minor (it can only be seen under a microscope), and does not have any long-term effects.

In other words, barring shots which directly pulverize the spinal cord or brain, whether or not someone drops instantly depends on the pressure wave (energy and shot placement), but whether they stay down depends on whether the hole is big and deep enough to punch through a vital organ (penetration, hole size, and shot placement). Anecdotal evidence does seem to show that this is the case. People hit with high-energy rounds in non-vital areas often drop, only to get right back up and keep fighting seconds later, while people hit in vital areas with low-energy rounds will often keep fighting for several seconds as though nothing were wrong, before finally bleeding out.

Seems like the best approach is to use a big, heavy, fast bullet with high energy, that makes a big deep hole. Someone's gotta be right, so I'm covering all bases with my primary carry loads. See my thread here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=201813

Very nasty, and definitely covers everything. Very high energy, very deep penetration, very nasty fragmentation, very huge temporary cavity (threw pieces of modeling clay about 50 feet), and a good hole size. What more can you ask of a handgun round?
 
Well RyanM!

Very nasty, and definitely covers everything. Very high energy, very deep penetration, very nasty fragmentation, very huge temporary cavity (threw pieces of modeling clay about 50 feet), and a good hole size. What more can you ask of a handgun round?

How about the smell? Rosewater or perhaps English Lavender Water or maybe even Chanel No.5 :evil: :cool: What do you mean - FLIPPANT :neener:

Duncan
 
Tha Boss prefers BIJAN :) Even OWNS two tuxedoes, one need not be declasse irrespective of circumstance old boy.

Aint life FUN!

Oh! Boss want tha tel # of the guy with tha loadin for his NAA and tha .40/10mm, thought he'd call and chat.

Expect in tha next month cause he's movin slower, about everone here gettin called, sos ifin ya wanna talk ta him, send yer #, he lokes you guys and wants ta formally introducetalk.

Some Euro thing i guess!
 
I could add some cornmeal on top of the powder so it'd smell like popcorn. Mmm, popcorn. Oh, yeah, I've also got the psychological angle covered. According to one doctor, .357 magnum creates wounds which are no more severe than .38 SPL, and the reason for the higher number of one-shot incapacitations is the increased flash and blast. At least a few of those cases were legitimately not due to the pressure wave/energy differences, because there were a few criminals who fainted dead away even though the shot missed! And Power Pistol, which I'm using, is unmatched for flash and blast. BLAAMMMMMMOOO!

The guy with the loading is me, right? Although I'm really not an expert on hot loading at all. That would have to be Clark. I don't think anyone else has pushed as many cartridge guns as hard as that guy has. The only stuff about hotrodding I know is what I've learned from reading Clark's posts.
 
RyanM you can take the primed .22 cases and put them on the end of a wooden arrow that has the tip cut off and the diameter reduced, put a little smokeless in there, and you can shoot bricks with them and they give a pretty loud report! something like a firecracker! or you could put .22 airgun pellets in the case, that might work well for indoor target practice!
 
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