FFFg powder compare: Goex, Swiss, Kik and Schuetzen

[BlackNet]

Sadly I was unable to get my hands on more brands of powder. So this may grow over time to include those when/if I can get different ones.

First the lineup. Yes I threw in a metal swiss FFFFg can, it's old and mostly to show the packaging can/will change, in this case it was because Swiss dropped their importer.

G = Goex. Sch = Schuetzen. K = Kik. S = Swiss.

Goes FFFg
This is made in Louisiana, US
Here we have a heavy graphite coated which yields a very very dark color. Edges appears to be slightly on the rough side so changes in shot quality can / will change depending on how much it is moved over its lifetime. The more movement the more those edges will chip away. Grain size seems to be all over the board.

Schuetzen FFFg
This is made in Germany by Wano Schwarzpulver GmbH.
From the photo above we can tell it has graphite coating but not as heavy as Goex, there fore it should be less fouling. Grain size seems very consistent and edge roughness shows much better polishing than Goex and KIK. Grain size alone and the lower volume of graphite should yield this to be superior to Goex in fouling and accuracy.

KIK FFFg
This is made in Slovenia by KIK.
This is some very odd powder. I saw many contaminants in the container, i.e. hair, dirt, lint, etc. All which will yield inconsistent, dirty and uneven burning. Grain size seems to be all over the board like Goex above. Edge smoothness is rough, so it will change over time depending on handling of the powder.

Swiss FFFg
This is made by Poudrerie D'Aubonne in Switzerland.
Grain size is fairly consistent. Edge smoothness is very good also we do not see heavy graphite coatings like the other 2 powders above. This should yield a more smooth burn over various handling of the powder over time, since less will be chipped off and eroded.

While this is not 3f powder it is 1.5F Swiss. I included it to show the edge processing.

:Conclusions:
Grain size: the more even the grain size the more consistent the burn. Schuetzen, Swiss, Goex then Kik from good to bad.

Edge smoothness: This is how much the powder will degrade over time with more adverse shipping/handling/transportation/'crunching' and the like. Swiss, Schuetzen, Goex then Kik.

Purity: Other crap in the container that should not be there, hair, lint, dirt, dust, etc.. Swiss, Goex, Schuetzen then Kik. When you also throw in how clean the grains are that would be Swiss in a class all by itself followed by Schuetzen, Goex and Kik.

 

[Don McDowell]

I can tell you from shooting KIK (and a lot of it) that your conclusions about it not burning well are unfounded, and when you get a good load going over the chronograph the spread will be 5 fps or less.

 

[mykeal]

I suggest you screen the samples (that is, pass the samples through different screen sizes) to get actual statistics on grain sizes. That would be more useful than simple observations.

Also, it would be useful to know the weights of given volumes of each brand and grain size sample.

Your characterization if KIK isn't borne out by others recently posting on this board; it's gotten good reviews in comparisons with Goex and Swiss. Are you planning a set of velocity tests with variations of caliber and projectiles?

 

[BlackNet]

I can tell you from shooting KIK (and a lot of it) that your conclusions about it not burning well are unfounded, and when you get a good load going over the chronograph the spread will be 5 fps or less.

Well lets put it this way.

I suggest you screen the samples (that is, pass the samples through different screen sizes) to get actual statistics on grain sizes. That would be more useful than simple observations.

Also, it would be useful to know the weights of given volumes of each brand and grain size sample.

Your characterization if KIK isn't borne out by others recently posting on this board; it's gotten good reviews in comparisons with Goex and Swiss. Are you planning a set of velocity tests with variations of caliber and projectiles?

This just arrived today actually, so far I only had time to take some quick photo's, I would like to do some velocity charts of my own and a few other things.

As for screening goes I really do not expect to see non-black powder items in there. Hair, lint and the like does yield lower quality.

 

[BlackNet]

Sorry, where is my manners. I forgot this.


http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm <- source book of the above images

 

[Don McDowell]

Ok let's put it this way
There are a bunch of folks that discovered they could simply fill their powder measures with KIK instead of Swiss and nothing changed except for sometimes the groups actually shrank, the fouling is a bunch easier to deal with, and you can almost get 2 cases of KIK for the cost of 1 of Swiss.
I have Bill Knights CD, and you might want to take into consideration most of what he has on that Laughlin and rand site is closing in on 10 years old.
He hisself mentioned the other day on the Shiloh forum that he hasn't even fired any of his rifles in several years and has not kept up with what is going on with the blackpowders. So while his writings are of interest (altho slanted hard against anything goex) they are dated...
A number of people reporting the last shipment/lot of Swiss not quite as dense and a bit slower than previous lots.

 

[BlackNet]

Correct Don, Also worth note is the KIK grains he posted and what I posted is not the same manufacturing quality. There has been some changes made since his lot and my lot were made. That part is very clear. I do expect many of the 'conclusions' that I came up with to change.

 

[Don McDowell]

Dicky the only interest I have is a decent shooting powder and a good price, that will deliver the goods to shoot 2moa or there abouts from powderburn close to the 1000 yd line.
Can't speak for others tho...

 

[BlackNet]

I am mostly doing this to be an educational experiment and experience. I did one recently of just Swiss and wanted to do one of different brands.

Besides buying this stuff is NOT cheap by no means. Personally I have heard a great number of reports about how certain powders did for others and wanted to see the difference for myself.

 

[Don McDowell]

I buy all my powder at retail just like everyone else, and I post what I find.
Oft times what I find with powder doesn't line up with what the pretty people think, but that's to bad so sad....
If I sound like I promote KIK, well might be because it has shown the capability to hold a string of rounds from a 44-77 in or on a 26 inch bullseye at 1000 yds.
As for the bit about Hogdons, not sure how you would come up with that , as I have not said whether I like the Olde Eynsford stuff or not. I do find it interesting and it has shown some possibilities in my rifles. Other folks have gone bonkers over the stuff, but I'm in the jury is still out category.
I was a huge fan of Goex Cartridge and Express, and was/still in the dediding po'ld column when Hogdons dumped both right at the start of the shooting season. And that is what lead to the trials with KIK. Altho I do know folks that shot KIK for many years and they claim totally opposite findings from the writings of Bill Knight.

 

[Don McDowell]

Blacknet, you might find when you get to testing these powders that Schuetzen 2f and Goex 3f shoot almost identicle. I burned thru several pounds of the Schuetzen looking for a good load in my 45-70 before I stumbled on to that little trick. Once I cut the powder charge accordingly the rifle woke up and really went to shooting well. But the hard grey/red claylike fouling typical of the Swiss/Schuetzen family can really get to be a bear to deal with in our hot dry shooting conditions.

 

[mykeal]

As for screening goes I really do not expect to see non-black powder items in there. Hair, lint and the like does yield lower quality.

My comment about screening was not to filter impurities but rather to put some data on the record regarding your observations as to inconsistent grain sizes in the samples:

Grain size seems to be all over the board...Grain size seems very consistent...

It would perhaps be useful to see something like:
Goex ffg: 70% by weight ffg, 20% by weight fffg, 7% by weight ffffg
Swiss ffg: 90% by weight ffg, 6% by weight fffg
KIK ffg: ....etc.

I also repeat my earlier suggestion regarding density; weight, or mass, is a much better parameter than volume as a basis for comparing and evaluating black powder. Black powder shooters use volume as a matter of convenience, while mass is really what makes it work.

Hard data will help solidify your conclusions, which frankly, to me, are at the level of speculation at this point. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with them, just suggesting a way to lend credibility to what at the moment seems like a commercial for Swiss. I apologize if this criticism is worded poorly and seems overly harsh; it's intended to be constructive. You've spent a good deal of time on this and it would be a shame to see it dismissed because the conclusions appeared to be too subjective.

 

[BlackNet]

it's not negativity nor is it bad. It is good observations you are making and like I said this is just the start. I do plan on doing several test including range time with a chrono.

 

[the Black Spot]

It would be interesting to see the differences between switching powders with same granulation. Ex. My 44 mag shoots 255 gr cast over 25 gr schuetzen 3F real well, but what if i switched to goex 3f would it shoot the same ?

 

[Don McDowell]

No switching straight from Schuetzen/Swiss to regular Goex will not yield the same velocity. What most people tend to gloss over when they speak so highly of the Swiss/schuetzen is that those powders are screened to smaller sizes than the regular Goex and even the discontinued Goex express.
But when you start lining up the same screen sized powder (never mind the label on the can) then things start evening up a good bit. That's the big thing with Goex's new Olde Eynsford it is screened the same size as Swiss.

 

[BlackNet]

If you bothered to read the thread I did on Swiss powder you will clearly see from the second photo how and why the grain sizes are different.
I am going to call it out and ask for proof positive on the screen size for Olde Eynsford here. Show me the chart and show me the granulation sizes listed.

 

[Don McDowell]

Blacknet, go take a look at what Goex has to say about their screen sizes of the new powder. Then get some ordered, then you can see things for your own self.

 

[BlackNet]

you mean this tiny bit?

http://www.goexpowder.com/olde-eynsford.html

I will say it again, show me the image file from Goex that states the granulation sizes for each grade.

 

[BlackNet]

Wrong? Wrong about what? All I am asking for is some basic trivial information. There is no right or wrong on this subject.

 

[BlackNet]

Just got off the phone with Goex. They refuse to release any and all information regarding granulation size due to 'legal liability' reasons, they also list it as a trade secret along with the sulfur/nitrate purity levels.

On sieve sizes the only thing they could say was Mil-P-223 yet also said that with Olde Eynsford they used similar sizes to that of Swiss. Even still there is a metric SAE difference at play.

 

[Don McDowell]

I have noticed that you have copy and pasted a quite large amount of Bill Knights work in your threads, but I do not see where you have credited him for the stuff you are copying. I would need to check my copy of his works he sent me, but I do believe that it's all copyrighted , and even if not I'm sure he would prefer to be acknowledged as the author of a great many of your posts.

Let's see some targets and chronograph readings now. Stuff that tells more usable info than several weeks of pictures and speculations...

 

[mykeal]

BlackNet attributed the data in his Post #5 in this thread.

 

[Don McDowell]

The thread is titled compare. There are some statements by in here about some of the powders , that just quite simply don't line up with what actual shooting has shown. So a discussion ensues.
Sorry if questioning and pointing out differences and asking for real world examples is being considered rude, it's not the intention.
And I'll make the case that the response from Blacknet is post 4 and the personal attack and out right lies told by Boomer following that (not uncommon practice for him on other boards) are not exactly what you'll find in Ms Paddycakes book of ettiquete.

 

[Crawdad1]

Come on guys do we really need this? I find Blacknet’s post extremely interesting in the comparing the different processes in the making of the various black powders and his posting of information from other sources is good information to have. How your individual rifle reacts (And all rifles are individuals) to those differing processes is up to YOU to find out NOT Blacknet.

 

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I shoot old BS powder myself. (Ballistic Stable)