Finally got into the armory at work. *gasp* the horror

[Aikibiker]

As some of you may know I started working last year as a corrections officer. We don't use firearms very often in our job although we have a few secured at the jail for use on transports and just in case. I was aware that the agency issue handgun was a .38 revolver. Nothing wrong with this at all. While I prefer a semi auto I don't feel at all unarmed with a revolver.

Today I finally found myself inside the armory at the institution. What I saw in there was like a bizarre timewarp. I took the opportunity to peek into all the cabinets. We have a few AR-15 carbines and some Remington 870s. Nothing unusual about that. It was when I got to the ammo closet that my eyes bulged out. The duty ammunition that is issued to any CO walking in public with a gun is LEAD ROUND NOSE RELOADS. To my horror I found box after box of American Eagle along with boxes from a reloading company I have never heard of called "Zero". The ammo for the rifles was also American Eagle fodder.

Honestly I don't know how to express how disgusted I am by this. That a county sponsored agency would still issue LRN ammunition in 2005 blows my mind. That they are to cheap to buy brand new unfired brass is totally unforgivable.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to bring this issue up with the goal of changing this policy? I think citing liability issues would be a good lever. Any others?

 

[Phil Ca]

The federal agency I worked with was using 158gr RNL ammo when I started. We changed within a couple of years because of he liability factor. The 158 gr RNL could pass through and endanger other bystanders. They changed to the Treasury P+P in 110 gr iirc.

 

[Backwoods]

Most of your post needs no further comment. I'll just point out that "Zero" was (is?) a rather well known ammo reloading company. It's been years since I've seen any of thier stuff but I've still got a couple of boxes of thiers I'm recycling.

Don in Ohio

 

[whm1974]

I see somebody did a triple post here...

Your agency may have a policy agaist issueing or allowing hollowpoints in it's officers guns for PR reasons. The media will get in an uproar if one of the prisoners gets shot with a hollowpoint...

-Bill

 

[armoredman]

I have worked for AZ DOC for over three years now, and our issue weapon is the Glock 19, and issue ammo Speer Gold Dot. We swap ammo every other week, and damaged rounds are discarded safely.
The ARs and shotguns are inspected monthly, and ammo swapped.
Sorry about your agency - see if they'll switch to CZs?

 

[Aikibiker]

Your agency may have a policy agaist issueing or allowing hollowpoints in it's officers guns for PR reasons. The media will get in an uproar if one of the prisoners gets shot with a hollowpoint...

Not really likely. This is Central Florida. The local press is rather positive about such things.

I think it is more cheapness on the part of my agency.

Autopistols would be nice but the way we issue weapons a revolver is a much better choice.

 

[g56]

Zero is a quality company, I used to shoot PPC competition, and some of the guys shooting used Zero reloads in competition. The choice the agency or purchasing made is incredibly poor, somebody isn't doing their job!

 

[armoredman]

Florida? The Dept that watched a helo fly into a yard a couple of years ago, load an inmate, and fly away, because tower officers weren't armed? That Dept? Now the condition of your armory makes sense. BTW, I was told your towers are armed now, and it's a good thing the felon flying crashed 200 yards away 'cause he really didn't know how to fly a helo....
Hope things get better - start putting in your memos. It's amazing how many people listen, because nobody else complains, due to the "Aw, ain't no one gonna listen to ME!" routine.... I have gotten a few things changed already, and will continue to push.

 

[Markheck1]

Not to hijack this thread..but...

How the heck can someone land a helo inside a prison yard, and then crash it while flying???? After landing inside the walls and towers the flying part would be a breeze.....Strange....maybe someone used their Legally Onwed Stinger....

 

[Hypnogator]

Sort of reminds me of when I went to work for Pinkerton's as a security guard in Des Moines, IA a number of years ago. When I checked my weapon ("took over" wpn & holster rig from preceding shift) I found patches of rust on the cylinder and barrel. It was loaded with 5 rounds -- a military .38 Special ball round, a wadcutter target round, two lead round nosed rounds, and a jacketed flat point of some kind or another.

Glad I was working with professionals!

 

[WolfDog]

The security company I work for issues nickel plated Taurus Security Special revolvers in .38 special and we are not allowed to use any ammo but what they give us which is usually some brand of non +p FMJ round.

This is for people who are doing everything from private security of factories to guarding federal banks. And to top it all off we are not issued any reloads either. We have to make due with the 6 rounds they issue us and most of the time that ammo has been either sitting in the gun or in a locked cabinet in the office for years. At least we have to requalify on the police training course yearly which includes left, and right handed shooting as well as reloading in the dark and firing under stress with sirens blaring and lights flashing and what not.

 

[OEF_VET]

WolfDog, maybe you should ask yor superiors why they require you to reload in the dark when qualifying, when they don't issue you any reloads while on duty. Maybe that'll be a genesis to get them to thinking.

 

[whm1974]

Wolfdog your company probley does this due to their insurance company requiring this or the company lawyer advised them to do this to reduce libabity in case a guard DOES have to shoot.

-Bill

 

[Aikibiker]

The helicopter incident happened down south a decade or so ago. What happened is a relative of the inmate hijacked the helicopter and forced the pilot to land in the prison rec yard. I believe the pilot purposely crashed the helicopter after the prison break.

Probably a good thing they didn't light up the aircraft under that circumstance, huh?

 

[WolfDog]

whm1974,

THAT is exaactly why they have the policoes they do. They are more concerned about a potential lawsuit than they are about potential public hazards due to using ammo more likely to pass through a potential BG or walls in the buildings we patrol here.

That and the choice of patrol sidearm is a sad one in many ways. Some of these guns are so poorly accurate it isn't even close to being funny. I am working to request that I be allowe3d to qualify and carry my personal CCW weapon if at all possible yet they do not allow this currently, though our area manager hasstated that if we are in a "car patrol" assignment we are allowed to have our personal sidearm in the vehicle as long as we do not have it on our person.

I am working to get the armed guard certifications currently in order to hopefully be assigned a higher paying positon. When I went to find out the proper procedure for CCW in my state I was told by my county sherrif that I did not want to CCW for that reason as I would only wind up getting myself killed.

His logic was a sound one though. He is not Anti-Gun by any means. His logic was that I would essentially make myself a target as, from his own personal experience he had seen many provate security guards become injured or killed due to the simple fact that they wore a visible badge on thier uniforms and most BG's see the badge and think "cop" and open fire immediately rather than risk getting caught. He cautioned me of the dangers inherent in my line of work and strongly discouraged my going for my state armed provate security certification.

Due to the holidays sucking away my spare cash I have yet to apply but I am as of the next paycheck now that the bills are somewhat caught up. Once I get the permit I am filing for the training for Armed guard and I will be carrying 24/7 except when asleep and even then the gun will be by the beside. I am not about to let myself become a statistic because I wasn't prepared to defend myself in my personal life or at work.

 

[whm1974]

THAT is exaactly why they have the policoes they do. They are more concerned about a potential lawsuit than they are about potential public hazards due to using ammo more likely to pass through a potential BG or walls in the buildings we patrol here.

But they are not worryed about lawsuits from the bystander who was hit from a bullet going though a BG or wall? Or how bad it will look when it takes six shots or more to stop a BG?

-Bill

 

[Sam]

They are more likely to be sued because of the hail of bullets that missed the BG and hit someone else than because of the bullets that went through the BG.

Sam

 

[LSCurrier]

Sam,

You said:

They are more likely to be sued because of the hail of bullets that missed the BG and hit someone else than because of the bullets that went through the BG.



Problem is:

It doesn't matter what type of bullet they use if their shooters are only capable of having a "hail of bullets" that miss the BG. They can just as well miss them with Lead RN, FMJ, or hollowpoints.

Luke

 

[CAS700850]

WolfDog, I wish you luck in your endeavors, esp. about getting the policy changed. The best I can suggest, given that (1) it's a liability concern and (2) I've done a bit of that kind of work with our local sheriff's department as legal advisor to their SWAT team, is that you point to the vast number of agencies that issue hollowpoints around the country. Point to the big agencies(FBI, LAPD, LASO, Chicago P.D.), and how they require hollowpoints. Point out how hollowpoints reduce the risk of overpenetration in any target medium, how they reduce the risk of ricochete (sp?). You might even want to try researching what other correction departments use for duty weapons, for a "see what everyone else uses" argument. Also, look into a cost comparison for ammo, and show how the expense is minimal.

I would suggest pushing for teh old FBI load, the 158 gran +p LSWHP. They are effective, have the seal of approval from the F.B.I., and don't look mean.

Best of luck.

 

[BluesBear]

Zero has been making some damn good ammo for over 30 years.

They were the first "reloading" company to have their own headstamped brass.
They were the first "reloading" company to package their ammo in reuseable plastic trays.
Zero paved the way for many of todays best known ammo makers.