Firearms in Apartments

[Fachento]

I'm planning on moving apartments here in the next couple of months, but before I sign a contract with the prospective complex, I asked for a contract exception. In their contract, they state that firearms, explosives, and other 'dangerous' equipment are not allowed to be kept in one's apartment, unless you obtain the permission of the landlord / management agency, and have the consent of all your roommates.

I have the consent of all my roommates, and have the landlords approval, but I'm waiting for them to 'put it in writing.'

My question is, is there anything I should specifically look out for in the wording of any document they propose to me as a contract exception? For instance, I'm a CHL holder in the state of Utah, and I would much prefer not to be constrained to keep the pistol in a locked case, with a cable lock through the slide.

They know I'm a CHL holder (passed an FBI background check), and I've met with them in person, so they can tell I'm mentally and emotionally balanced. They are okay with the idea, it's just taken them time to get around to actually writing something up.

Any suggestions, tips, caveats, etc. from the group?

-Fachento

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Dont open doors for anyone other than expected visitors who arrive on time.

That usually keeps alot of trouble out.

Good luck!

 

[highlander 5]

I would check with an attorney to find out IF it's legal for the landlord/management company to put such restrictions in a lease. It may be illegal to do so so any other requirements may be moot.

 

[Rellian]

Highlander has it right. Some states have castle laws that supersede any landlord restriction. It's still a good idea to make sure your roomies are ok with it though.... they can get a bit neurotic if they happen to 'Find' it (personal experience)

 

[Sunray]

Get a copy of your State laws regarding landlords and tenants. Assuming there is such a thing. I'd be very surprised if they can tell you no firearms. As long as you're not doing anything illegal, what you have in your unit is none of the landlord's business.
Explosives are a different thing, of course. Smokeless powder is not an explosive. BP is though. Not that BP is going to explode without some help.

 

[Rmeju]

What state?

Here in MN, landlords can't ban firearms. Where are you?

 

[archigos]

I moved out of my old house because one of my roommates was an anti-gun bigot.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Just out of curiosity, what state is this complex in?

 

[Funderb]

In fl. I think a lease banning firearms would be restricted by the law prohibiting anyone from limiting constitutional rights.

 

[Fachento]

Clarifications...

The apartment complex itself is located in Utah. The trick of it is, it's 'university contracted' housing. It's for students attending the local University, but they have to meet certain obligations in order to be able to offer housing to the student body. There is a general 'bread and butter' contract that the University requires the apartments to include, along with any addendum they wish to make.

Part of the contract reads thus:

"FIREARMS, WEAPONS, FIREWORKS, AND EXPLOSIVES: Unless prior written consent is received from the landlord and all other students in the dwelling, neither the student nor the landlord or its agent, if residing in the same dwelling as the student, may store, keep, or maintain on the premises any firearms, weapons, fireworks, or explosives, including knives (except reasonable cutlery), or other items which, in their intended use, are capable of inflicting serious personal injury."

I'm a Utah resident, and Utah CHL holder, but I'm not familiar with any Utah State "Castle Laws" that would be applicable here. I'm not even sure where to look. If there is a law that would bar apartment complexes from making this stipulation or enforcing it, that would be important to know -- it would just surprise me if that were the case, seeing that it has (to my knowledge) gone on this long unchalleneged.

Thanks for the input,

- Fachento

 

[Fachento]

Also, there are a few complexes under the same agreement with the University who, when approached by me with the same proposition responded with a "don't ask don't tell" stance. I'm more than happy to do that, because I trust all of my roommates (who all know about my firearms, and likewise trust me to be responsible with them).

The complex in question apparently had a less-than-desirable experience with a former tenant who kept firearms on the premises but wasn't mentally balanced, or even a student (another stipulation in order to obtain housing there). They ended up having to evict him, and the situation escalated to the point where the local police became involved. So in the process of getting approved, I may be unconsciously doing some 'reputation repair' on behalf of gun owners in the student body. I'd really rather this be a positive experience for the landlord and management company, so that this door stays open for other gun owners in the future. Before resorting to "well, the law reads..." I'd really like to get these guys on my side using the carrot-on-a-stick approach if it can be done.

- Fachento

 

[Travis Bickle]

The complex in question apparently had a less-than-desirable experience with a former tenant who kept firearms on the premises but wasn't mentally balanced

One wonders if they'd ban cars after a less than desirable experience with a former tenant who kept an automobile on the premises and was a drunk.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Ugh, I have headache thinking this through.

One part of me says the Landlord and University can both shove it because State supports CCW and also Gunowner's basic rights in the 2nd.

Another part of me thinks that if this is such a difficult and sort of a anti gun place to get, find other place to live. There is a univeristy over yonder in my area and most folks rent outright sometimes by grouping together to rent a home.

 

[Fachento]

It gets even more complicated. Laws that apply to state universities don't hold much water here - it's a private university. Utah law requires state universities to allow CHL permit holders to carry concealed while on campus. Universities that don't receive any state funding don't have to abide by that law, however. Privately funded universities can't punish CHL holders for carrying campus, unless they are students... who can be expelled, even if they can't be criminally prosecuted.

I don't think this complex is anti-gun - just a little edgy. I'd prefer to try and turn things around before deciding to 'run' from the situation. I'd really rather keep the trustworthy roommates I have right now, than throw in the towel over this issue, and take my chances with new (untrustworthy?) roommates at a different complex.

-Fachento

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." ~Thomas Paine

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Goot roomies are hard to find yah?

If you all think alike, stay as a unit if you can.

 

[cbrgator]

Call a landlord/tenant lawyer or a constitutional lawyer. If your University has a law school, go ask one of the professors who specializes in landlord/tenant law.

 

[cbrgator]

I would bet they CAN ban guns from the complex. Just like stores can post signs to legally preclude you from carrying there. Yes its a constitutional right, but its far from unlimited.

My $.02

 

[akodo]

Unfortunately, as much as I disagree, University Residence Halls are generally treated as somewhat 'above-the-law'

For instance, a man and woman in a relationship but not married could choose to live together and rent an apartment. That same man and woman would not be able to share a dorm room at a university. That is discrimination, but it is allowed. In the same sense, these two would not be allowed to use 'married student housing'


Your average apartment owner/manager would NOT be allowed to say 'no, boys and girls can't live together because you aren't married!'

Same goes with some dorms being 'dry' even for students 21 and over, allowing all female floors to enact 'no male guests between X and Y hours' (freedom of association violation) etc etc

basically, for some reason the law views college students as 'not quite adults' and allows colleges to get away with quite a lot restricting them...provided the punishment is simply expulsion.

As this apartment isn't on campus BUT has some sort of arrangement for special student housing, it will be treated pretty much the same as a dorm room.

I suggest you find non-university affilaited housing

 

[DCR]

Complex situation (sorry for the pun)

Your question is far more complicated than most folks responding realize, Fachento. Euphemistically called "contracted" housing, it is really "university-approved" housing, meaning that the owner gets to hold the complex out as being endorsed by the university. It's been decades since I have spoken with anyone about this very topic, but don't all students, unless they're married, have to live in "university approved" housing?

Here's the bottom line: it appears the university has added the no-guns provision as a condition for an apartment complex being "approved housing."

The real twist: it's Brigham Young University (BYU). As in built, run, and wholly supported by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints (the Mormons).

The church, and LDS people in general, have never been accused of being anti-gun, because, well, they are NOT! They're a very self-reliant people who believe in individual rights and responsibility, which naturally includes providing for and protecting your family. That's why this is a little bit troubling. It's coming from the university administration somewhere, not the church, and is likely incorporated into the "approved housing" process.

For those unaware, (and please feel free to correct me on this; I'm going on nearly 25 year old information and I'm not LDS) BYU has a code of conduct for its students not unlike most all universities, but it incorporates, of course, church doctrine like the "word of wisdom" into it. Students are expected to abide by the code of conduct on- and off-campus, which includes their apartments. BYU approved housing complexes, for example cannot rent an apartment to an unmarried man and woman, or any mixed-gender arrangement. Students who rent these apartments in BYU approved housing complexes usually find the terms of their lease include the code of conduct and word of wisdom provisions, and they can be evicted for violations. (I had a girlfriend from CA who very nearly did get evicted in college because somebody - perhaps the landlord or the equivalent of a resident advisor for the college - found coffee grounds in her garbage. Four times. )

So, Fachento, you've got a lot more going on here than just the Utah Code and a lease. You'll probably have to get some sort of dispensation from BYU on this, or leave your toys home. Or just keep your mouth shut and don't EVER show your roommates anything, because people, being human, talk too much. Good luck!

 

[Sheldon J]

Quick method have them give you the OK verbaly and just record it on a micro cassette tis what I do...

 

[SwapTail]

Hmm BYU ehh, can't you say you need to have your gun with you to protect your 7 wives? (I kid, I kid)

 

[Fachento]

"University Approved Housing"

'University-Approved' housing is the correct term for it - and yes, BYU stipulates that all students live in 'university approved' housing while you are a student there. There are several exceptions to this rule... with a few quid pro quo, of course. You can live in off campus housing that isn't 'University Approved' off the bat if it is with family, in a house/condo owned by your parents or family, or if you and all your roommates wherever you live sign a paper declaring that you will abide by the University's code of conduct, affectionately referred to as the "Honor Code" at BYU. The Honor Code does a pretty effective job at keeping campus and it's approved housing free of alcohol, drugs, tobacco, and a number of other things that are common at several other university campuses. With all that come measures that aren't always welcome. The Honor Code mentions nothing about firearms, explosives, 'dangerous' weapons, etc. That's strictly part of the University Housing departments provisions.

Here's the deal, university housing won't make you jump through the same hoops if you are living with family, or find your own place and sign the necessary paperwork to make your abode temporarily 'university approved'. The whole written consent (to keep a firearm in your 'university approved' apartment) thing is a bit of a pain, but I can deal with it for another year or two. I think from this point on, however, I'd either like to gauge each complex's stance on it (don't ask don't tell vs. we'd rather you live somewhere else), and come to the table better prepared, or just be an invisible CHL wherever and whenever I can.

Though the LDS church does place an enormous emphasis on protecting home and family (so thoroughly family oriented it's not even funny), there still seems to be a 'not in my backyard' mentality in several predominantly LDS communities when it comes to crime, violence, terrorism, and several other things that have come to represent real threats to family safety. Having a year's supply of food, living within your means, getting a solid education, and actively serving in your community definitely get the most attention for preparedness, and probably deservedly so - but neither really gives you effective insulation or protection from crime, violence, or terrorism. Just because you don't go looking for trouble doesn't mean it won't find it's way to you.

Some people believe (wrongly, IMHO) that you are supposed to guard your year's supply of food with your very life, at the point of a gun - threatening anyone who comes near. Not very Christian if you ask me. That's not why I'm pro-gun. In a pinch, I'd rather share my food supply with all my closest neighbors and keep the community alive rather than letting things devolve into an 'every man for himself' power-keg. Trying to get this apartment complex to acquiesce diplomatically is my way of trying to take things in that direction. Showing people that I am a responsible, cheerful, productive, and beneficial part of their community, who happens to be a gun-owner. Actually, a multi-gun owner. :-D "Oh, and by the way, yes, I do carry a gun - heck you might enjoy coming along on a shooting trip! What are you up to on Saturday?"

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Thread veer. During the last ice storm wife and I had a food drill where a stranger asking for provisions would be told to wait by a certain tree while one of us carries the tray to that tree covered by a big weapon ready to go by the other.

Dont think that we are not generous with others with a portion of what is availible in hard times requiring armed living.

 

[Rellian]

Fachento,
This is actually a discussion I had with family members when my cousin asked the same question.
Utah has some specific Castle Laws that one could argue do trump even BYU's rules (so long as you are in YOUR apartment) and that the landlord does NOT have the right to deny you possession of firearms. If the case is indeed true that BYU simply endorses the apartments, but does not OWN the apartments, then they are not part of the actual religion's holdings and are no longer part of that special exemption list that get to ignore subsection 5

(5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.

What it boils down to is that in Utah the only places a permit holder cannot take their guns are Federal Buildings/Property, Post Offices, Government Buildings such as Court Houses, Private Residences (if they have asked you verbally or in writing not do do so), and Religious Buildings/Property (again if they have publicly posted that people do not do so)...
Since BYU does not own the housing they may be able to expel you but legally they cannot stop you. So really it does not matter what they put in writing... it's your right regardless.
But then again the real truth is not what the law says.... but what the Judge says if you take it/or are taken to court.

 

[Fachento]

Well, things being as they are, I'll post the results of my interaction with this particular complex, and possibly even include the wording of the consent agreement that they propose.

At the same time, it interests me enough to see if I can't find a law professor somewhere here that would be willing to explore the applicability of Utah State 'Castle Law' as it applies to university approved housing, and restrictions that can or cannot be placed on tenants of off-campus housing.

-Fachento