Dog Soldier
member
Yes, Ruger used the Engineering of the R&S. The "Cosmetics" had nothing to do with the reliable and modern ROA.
First BP Revolver
- Thread starter david58
- Start date
- Status
Bullseye
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2008
- Messages
- 1,598
My first BP revolver was the Pietta Remington. I bought it simply because I liked the way the cylinder could easily be removed. I think out of the basic model replicas, the Remington seems the most sturdy to me.
Since then I got a 1851 and 1860 to fill out my little collection. Mostly I just get them out and give em a look over, wipe em down with a oiled cloth and put them back away. It is Fall tho, and there's something about BP in the cooler weather. I will shoot them again in the near future.
Since then I got a 1851 and 1860 to fill out my little collection. Mostly I just get them out and give em a look over, wipe em down with a oiled cloth and put them back away. It is Fall tho, and there's something about BP in the cooler weather. I will shoot them again in the near future.
Dog Soldier
member
I have 10 of the Ruger Old Army revolvers. One of my favorites to shoot is a Colt Walker up graded by Mike at Goons Gun Works.The big Walker with 50 grs of T-7 under a LEE 220 Remington bullet is a hammer by any standard.
lagerratrobe
Member
I have a Pietta Remington 1858 with the shorter "Sheriff's" barrel that I purchased from Cabelas a month ago. The makers proof mark [CP] says that it was made this year. It has none of the problems (hammer thickness, cylinder chamber diameter etc.) listed previously. It needed a good cleaning when I got it home, but otherwise has been perfect and is a pleasure to shoot.
Given a choice, I would prefer to have a dovetailed front sight, but not enough to pay the difference in cost for an Uberti.
Given a choice, I would prefer to have a dovetailed front sight, but not enough to pay the difference in cost for an Uberti.
Berkley
Member
"Tinypic doesn't seem to work with the new format. Can't get the pic to show up." - Rodwha
Seems to be working for me....
Seems to be working for me....
I bought a Pietta earlier this year expressively for use with a Howell conversion cylinder. Knowing that these revolvers are supposed to be regulated for 50 to 75 yards shooting at a target 20 yards away with 40 grain BP loads of .45 Colt aiming 6 inches low hit the target center. That was with both 200 and 255 grain bullets. At 50 yards they were dead on. No windage adjustment needed. I have not tried the C&B cylinder yet.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
I bought my first Black Powder revolver in 1968. A brass framed 44 caliber version of the Colt Navy.
A few years later I bought a EuroArms 1858 Remington because of the Top Strap. I installed a conversion cylinder in the old Remmie to fire 45 Colt cartridges a bunch of years ago, but it pretty much looks the same except for the cylinder. The comment about the height of the front sight is correct. My old Remmie had the short front sight, and it shot high. Before I invested the money in the conversion cylinder I had a gunsmith cut a dovetail and install an Uberti front sight. This brought the point of impact down where I wanted it and I went ahead and invested in the conversion cylinder.
With the Remington design with its top strap, it is easier to remove the cylinder for cleaning. No messing about with a wedge to remove the barrel in order to pop the cylinder out.
But one thing has not been mentioned. The Remington design tends to bind up more quickly than the open top Colt design. There are two reasons for this.
1. There is no gas collet on the front of the cylinder to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin, and
2. The cylinder pin of the Remington design is narrower than the cylinder arbor of the Colt design. Here is a photo of the cylinder of a Colt 1860 Army on the left and the Remington 1858 Navy on the right. Notice how much larger in diameter the hole for the Colt arbor is than the hole for the Remington cylinder pin. The Remington pin is only about 1/4" in diameter. Notice too that there is a helical groove cut around the Colt arbor. This groove creates clearance for fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder pin to accumulate without binding up the cylinder. You can see I cut some narrow grooves in the cylinder pin of the Remington for the same purpose, but they do not work so well. I find that I have to remove the cylinder from the Remington after every six shots and wipe off the cylinder face with a damp rag or the gun will bind up. I can shoot the Colt much longer without it binding up.
The upside is it is so simple to pop the cylinder out of the Remington that wiping it off regularly is not a problem.
I bought my first Black Powder revolver in 1968. A brass framed 44 caliber version of the Colt Navy.
A few years later I bought a EuroArms 1858 Remington because of the Top Strap. I installed a conversion cylinder in the old Remmie to fire 45 Colt cartridges a bunch of years ago, but it pretty much looks the same except for the cylinder. The comment about the height of the front sight is correct. My old Remmie had the short front sight, and it shot high. Before I invested the money in the conversion cylinder I had a gunsmith cut a dovetail and install an Uberti front sight. This brought the point of impact down where I wanted it and I went ahead and invested in the conversion cylinder.
With the Remington design with its top strap, it is easier to remove the cylinder for cleaning. No messing about with a wedge to remove the barrel in order to pop the cylinder out.
But one thing has not been mentioned. The Remington design tends to bind up more quickly than the open top Colt design. There are two reasons for this.
1. There is no gas collet on the front of the cylinder to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin, and
2. The cylinder pin of the Remington design is narrower than the cylinder arbor of the Colt design. Here is a photo of the cylinder of a Colt 1860 Army on the left and the Remington 1858 Navy on the right. Notice how much larger in diameter the hole for the Colt arbor is than the hole for the Remington cylinder pin. The Remington pin is only about 1/4" in diameter. Notice too that there is a helical groove cut around the Colt arbor. This groove creates clearance for fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder pin to accumulate without binding up the cylinder. You can see I cut some narrow grooves in the cylinder pin of the Remington for the same purpose, but they do not work so well. I find that I have to remove the cylinder from the Remington after every six shots and wipe off the cylinder face with a damp rag or the gun will bind up. I can shoot the Colt much longer without it binding up.
The upside is it is so simple to pop the cylinder out of the Remington that wiping it off regularly is not a problem.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I have tried everything under the sun on the cylinder pin. I prefer to put a layer of grease, rather than a thin, runny liquid like Ballistol. I have coated the pin with SPG, Bore Butter, and my 50/50 mix of Crisco/Beeswax. Nothing keeps my Remmies running as long as an open top Colt replica.
J-Bar
Member
I'm late to the party, but have to compliment you on your fine shooting! Beautiful group!
Dog Soldier
member
Thx J Bar. The Roger & Spencer Target models are very accurate handguns.
Crawdad1
Member
Great shooting and a great shooter. A lot of people are surprised how good black powder revolvers can shoot.
I can't say that I've run it to see how long it takes to bind again. Without a real need to i reapply a bit of Ballistol and wipe the cylinder, a quick once over.
What have you noticed since it seems you have tested this?
Dog Soldier
member
The gap between the forcing cone and chamber face allows carbon residue to blow back into the arbor. This causes the cylinder to lock up. Use an eye dropper to drop some water around the arbor. These reproductions are simply not fitted as the originals. I have Goons Gun Works tune my B/P revolvers.
http://www.goonsgunworks.com/
http://www.goonsgunworks.com/
44 Dave
Member
I lube the arbor with what ever,Crisco, Bore But black powder bullet lube..................
If I shoot enough to have it tighten up, after the cylinder is loaded and before I cap give the front of the cylinder some Balistol or powder solvent have even splashed it with pond water.
If I shoot enough to have it tighten up, after the cylinder is loaded and before I cap give the front of the cylinder some Balistol or powder solvent have even splashed it with pond water.
daboyleroy
Member
I rub the arbor with a thin coat of the grease that I used when I do brake shoe replacement
It is already high temp. Problem solved
It is already high temp. Problem solved
Fingers McGee
Member
I've heard that spraying the cylinder pin/arbor of a '58 with PAM will give you trouble free shooting.
I've heard this; have no experience with it - my shooters are all colts.
I've heard this; have no experience with it - my shooters are all colts.
daboyleroy
Member
What is the bullet in the photo or mold number? ThanksHowdy
The upside is it is so simple to pop the cylinder out of the Remington that wiping it off regularly is not a problem.
AlexanderA
Member
As a general rule, regardless of the specific brand and model, the Italian BP revolvers are an incredible bargain, compared to other offerings (such as reproduction Civil War muskets, for example). I don't know how they keep their prices so low. Maybe it has something to do with economies of scale, or the dollar-euro exchange rate. Anyway, I would not hesitate to buy at these prices.
Howdy
I bought my first Black Powder revolver in 1968. A brass framed 44 caliber version of the Colt Navy.
A few years later I bought a EuroArms 1858 Remington because of the Top Strap. I installed a conversion cylinder in the old Remmie to fire 45 Colt cartridges a bunch of years ago, but it pretty much looks the same except for the cylinder. The comment about the height of the front sight is correct. My old Remmie had the short front sight, and it shot high. Before I invested the money in the conversion cylinder I had a gunsmith cut a dovetail and install an Uberti front sight. This brought the point of impact down where I wanted it and I went ahead and invested in the conversion cylinder.
With the Remington design with its top strap, it is easier to remove the cylinder for cleaning. No messing about with a wedge to remove the barrel in order to pop the cylinder out.
But one thing has not been mentioned. The Remington design tends to bind up more quickly than the open top Colt design. There are two reasons for this.
1. There is no gas collet on the front of the cylinder to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin, and
2. The cylinder pin of the Remington design is narrower than the cylinder arbor of the Colt design. Here is a photo of the cylinder of a Colt 1860 Army on the left and the Remington 1858 Navy on the right. Notice how much larger in diameter the hole for the Colt arbor is than the hole for the Remington cylinder pin. The Remington pin is only about 1/4" in diameter. Notice too that there is a helical groove cut around the Colt arbor. This groove creates clearance for fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder pin to accumulate without binding up the cylinder. You can see I cut some narrow grooves in the cylinder pin of the Remington for the same purpose, but they do not work so well. I find that I have to remove the cylinder from the Remington after every six shots and wipe off the cylinder face with a damp rag or the gun will bind up. I can shoot the Colt much longer without it binding up.
The upside is it is so simple to pop the cylinder out of the Remington that wiping it off regularly is not a problem.
The bottom one interests me , the smaller one with the rn . ( there is two designs )
I had heard that too and tried it. It didn't work at all and sits in the kitchen.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
The two bullets in the photo are Big Lube bullets. This is a series of bullets with huge lube grooves designed to carry an enormous amount of Black Powder compatible lube. One of the problems shooting Black Powder, particularly with a rifle, is that conventional bullets usually do carry enough lube to keep the bore coated with soft lube for its entire length. So rifle barrels often get starved of lube for the last six inches or so, causing hard fouling to build up, ruining accuracy. With a really clean burning Black Powder such as Swiss, this may not present a problem. But with a dirty burning powder like Goex it can cause problems. The Big Lube bullets were designed to get around this. They carry enough lube so even the longest rifle barrel will receive a coating of soft lube for its entire length, cutting down on hard fouling and allowing many repeat shots without cleaning.
Even with a revolver, the extra lube on the bullet squirted out of the barrel/cylinder gap helps lay down a layer of grease on the front of the cylinder, particularly a cylinder with no gas collet such as the 1858 Remington. This layer of soft grease on the cylinder face helps prevent binding.
There are other bullets on the market designed for Black Powder, but they generally do not carry enough lube to do the job. I experimented with a lot of them, once I discovered the Big Lube bullets I gave up on the others.
The specific bullets in the photos are the PRS 250 grain 45 caliber bullet in the rear and a bullet I designed, the J/P 45-200, a 45 caliber 200 grain bullet, in front. I designed the J/P 45-200 specifically with my 1858 Remington in mind. The grip shape of the 1858 Remington is a bit uncomfortable under recoil from a 250 grain bullet seated over a full charge of Black Powder in a 45 Colt case when fired from my conversion cylinders. Quite a bit more recoil than generated when a round ball is fired with about 30 grains of powder. Also, I was concerned about the thin cross section of the frame at the point where the loading lever pierces the frame. So I came up with a 200 grain big lube design to cut down a bit on the mass of the projectile, and I usually load them into 45 Schofield cases instead of 45 Colt cases, to cut the powder capacity down from about 35 grains to about 28 grains. A much milder, less punishing load.
This photo shows one of my 45 Colt loads at the far left, with the PRS 250 grain bullet, and right next to it is one of my 45 Schofield loads with the J/P 45-200 bullet.
This photo compares lubed and unlubed Big Lube bullets. At left is the Mav-Dutchman 44 caliber bullet loaded into a 44-40 round, at the right is the PRS 250 grain 45 caliber round loaded into a 45 Colt round. This gives a pretty graphic view of how much lube these bullets carry.
Here are the components that go into my 44 Russian rounds that I shoot in my antique S&W Top Breaks. The 44 caliber Mav-Dutchman bullet, with and without lube, Starline 44 Russian brass, and about 19.5 grains of FFg Schuetzen.
Sorry, I do not have a similar photo of the J/P 45-200 bullet, but it is very much like the 250 grain PRS, just shorter and squatter.
To cast your own Big Lube bullets you can buy a mold from Dick Dastardly's BIg Lube website. He tells you all about it.
https://www.biglube.com/
If you want to buy bullets already cast, sized and lubed, you can order them from Springfield Slim
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html
P.S. My original J/P 45-200 bullet has evolved a bit over time. They are no longer quite so short and stubby.
The two bullets in the photo are Big Lube bullets. This is a series of bullets with huge lube grooves designed to carry an enormous amount of Black Powder compatible lube. One of the problems shooting Black Powder, particularly with a rifle, is that conventional bullets usually do carry enough lube to keep the bore coated with soft lube for its entire length. So rifle barrels often get starved of lube for the last six inches or so, causing hard fouling to build up, ruining accuracy. With a really clean burning Black Powder such as Swiss, this may not present a problem. But with a dirty burning powder like Goex it can cause problems. The Big Lube bullets were designed to get around this. They carry enough lube so even the longest rifle barrel will receive a coating of soft lube for its entire length, cutting down on hard fouling and allowing many repeat shots without cleaning.
Even with a revolver, the extra lube on the bullet squirted out of the barrel/cylinder gap helps lay down a layer of grease on the front of the cylinder, particularly a cylinder with no gas collet such as the 1858 Remington. This layer of soft grease on the cylinder face helps prevent binding.
There are other bullets on the market designed for Black Powder, but they generally do not carry enough lube to do the job. I experimented with a lot of them, once I discovered the Big Lube bullets I gave up on the others.
The specific bullets in the photos are the PRS 250 grain 45 caliber bullet in the rear and a bullet I designed, the J/P 45-200, a 45 caliber 200 grain bullet, in front. I designed the J/P 45-200 specifically with my 1858 Remington in mind. The grip shape of the 1858 Remington is a bit uncomfortable under recoil from a 250 grain bullet seated over a full charge of Black Powder in a 45 Colt case when fired from my conversion cylinders. Quite a bit more recoil than generated when a round ball is fired with about 30 grains of powder. Also, I was concerned about the thin cross section of the frame at the point where the loading lever pierces the frame. So I came up with a 200 grain big lube design to cut down a bit on the mass of the projectile, and I usually load them into 45 Schofield cases instead of 45 Colt cases, to cut the powder capacity down from about 35 grains to about 28 grains. A much milder, less punishing load.
This photo shows one of my 45 Colt loads at the far left, with the PRS 250 grain bullet, and right next to it is one of my 45 Schofield loads with the J/P 45-200 bullet.
This photo compares lubed and unlubed Big Lube bullets. At left is the Mav-Dutchman 44 caliber bullet loaded into a 44-40 round, at the right is the PRS 250 grain 45 caliber round loaded into a 45 Colt round. This gives a pretty graphic view of how much lube these bullets carry.
Here are the components that go into my 44 Russian rounds that I shoot in my antique S&W Top Breaks. The 44 caliber Mav-Dutchman bullet, with and without lube, Starline 44 Russian brass, and about 19.5 grains of FFg Schuetzen.
Sorry, I do not have a similar photo of the J/P 45-200 bullet, but it is very much like the 250 grain PRS, just shorter and squatter.
To cast your own Big Lube bullets you can buy a mold from Dick Dastardly's BIg Lube website. He tells you all about it.
https://www.biglube.com/
If you want to buy bullets already cast, sized and lubed, you can order them from Springfield Slim
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html
P.S. My original J/P 45-200 bullet has evolved a bit over time. They are no longer quite so short and stubby.
daboyleroy
Member
Great photos and very detailed information.
Thank you very much for sharing.
I will check it out
Thank you very much for sharing.
I will check it out
- Status
