First muzzleloading rifle - a Hatfield .45 - and cap size confusion

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bear166

bear166

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Howdy folks. After being in the market for a long time, I finally got lucky yesterday with what seems to have been a great deal on a Hatfield .45 cal rifle. I picked it up for $400 and I cannot for the life of me figure out why it was available so cheap, as they and their modern Pedersoli counterparts seem to go for more like $700 or even $900. Other than some minor surface rust in the bore and a bit of a snag where the lock scraped against the wood, the gun is in great shape despite obviously having seen a lot of use.

I was pretty excited to shoot it today, but unfortunately found that my RWS 1075+ caps were too small for the nipple (good thing I brought my 1860 as well so I was not completely empty handed). I'm a little confused about this, as while I haven't had much luck finding information specifically on Hatfields, all current versions of the rifle seem to use #11 nipples, which I believe my caps should fit unless I'm misunderstanding something.

I haven't been able to locate the manual, which may have more information in it. I'm not really sure where to go from here, as obviously with shortages caps are hard to find. All I can find online are more 1075s (which I have plenty of anyway) and those winged musket caps. Maybe those are what I need? I'm not sure, all of my black powder knowledge is limited to cap revolvers and BPCR. Are there nipples I could find that would allow me to use my RWS caps? None of my wrenches fit the nipple anyway so I think I'll need to find out what it takes one way or another.

Might just be taking her out for muzzleloading deer season in a few weeks, so I'm hoping to get it sighted in here soon. Thanks in advance.
 
Jimster said:
I believe you need #11 caps. That’s a nice looking rifle by the way.
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Many thanks! I haven't been able to stop looking at it. Been a while since I got a gun I was this enamored with.

I thought #11 caps were correct as well, but as I understand it, the RWS 1075 should be more or less equivalent to #11s and they do not fit at all. Maybe I just needed to use more force to get it on there, but it did not feel right at all compared to to capping my revolvers.
 
RWS 1075's are sold as a No.11 cap. RWS 1055 are a No. 10 cap. If they don't fit try some CCI or Remington No.11. Hatfields were a semi custom back in the 80's. The barrels were Green Mountain and had a round ball twist. The locks were made by L&R. Later ones had barrels made by Pedersoli and may have had a 1:48 twist. Quality was not good. Barrels made by Pedersoli for Hatfield will have the name ground off but it's on the underside of the barrel. You'll have to be careful driving out the pins because it may make the wood around the hole splinter.
 
At times when I didn't have the correct cap, I carefully split one side 3/4 way through and press on with my knife handle. NEVER on revolvers! Only single shots.
 
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A call to Track of the Wolf or Dixie Gun Works might be in order. They may have nipples to fit your Hatfield. If American made it will most probably be 1/4 X 28 thread. They may have nipples with that thread and different tip sizes that fit the different caps. If it were my problem I'd chuck it up in my drill press and turn the nipple down to the size I needed. Of course I'd make a few calls first.
 
chickasaw_hunter said:
A call to Track of the Wolf or Dixie Gun Works might be in order. They may have nipples to fit your Hatfield. If American made it will most probably be 1/4 X 28 thread. They may have nipples with that thread and different tip sizes that fit the different caps. If it were my problem I'd chuck it up in my drill press and turn the nipple down to the size I needed. Of course I'd make a few calls first.
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That's a good idea, I've had great experiences with both companies in the past so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to bring in the experts. In the meantime, I went ahead and ordered some of those musket caps, worst case scenario they don't fit and I'll just use them on some inevitable future rifle. In doing a bit of reading, I suspect that's what the nipple on mine requires. Whether it was original or not I have no idea, but perhaps the rifle was owned by someone who wanted to use those reusable CCI 4-Wing caps for re-enactment purposes. I made an order for some of the Schuetzen 4-Wings to see if they'll fit, and if not, I'll start looking for a replacement nipple.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
 
I think the low price just reflects the lack of demand. "Modern" ML's have taken over the hunting field and the traditional muzzle loader guys usually already have enough rifles that they/we aren't going to jump on every rifle we come across, even at a very good price. Even though there's nothing wrong with a .45 for hunting, the trend now even among traditional rifle fans is more towards .54 caliber, with many .50" fans left, and people like me who prefer even bigger bores. I think that all worked in your favor. Good score.

I'm not familiar with a nipple that is that oversize for #11's. !!! I hate to insult you by asking this...but...it doesn't have a musket cap-nipple on it..? No of course not, sorry to ask. How about a picture of that-there giant nipple?

However, like the Rabbit said, the easy-peasy fix is to put it in the drill press and turn the cone down, and that way you can get a perfect fit with the caps you have.
 
bear166 said:
That's a good idea, I've had great experiences with both companies in the past so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to bring in the experts. In the meantime, I went ahead and ordered some of those musket caps, worst case scenario they don't fit and I'll just use them on some inevitable future rifle. In doing a bit of reading, I suspect that's what the nipple on mine requires. Whether it was original or not I have no idea, but perhaps the rifle was owned by someone who wanted to use those reusable CCI 4-Wing caps for re-enactment purposes. I made an order for some of the Schuetzen 4-Wings to see if they'll fit, and if not, I'll start looking for a replacement nipple.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
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Sometimes if a shooter has ignition problems (often due to incorrect cleaning or loading methods) they will install a musket nipple. Not unusual at all. I have one on my TC Hawken just due to the weird breech plug with the contorted flash channel they use on that gun.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
I think the low price just reflects the lack of demand. "Modern" ML's have taken over the hunting field and the traditional muzzle loader guys usually already have enough rifles that they/we aren't going to jump on every rifle we come across, even at a very good price. Even though there's nothing wrong with a .45 for hunting, the trend now even among traditional rifle fans is more towards .54 caliber, with many .50" fans left, and people like me who prefer even bigger bores. I think that all worked in your favor. Good score.

I'm not familiar with a nipple that is that oversize for #11's. !!! I hate to insult you by asking this...but...it doesn't have a musket cap-nipple on it..? No of course not, sorry to ask. How about a picture of that-there giant nipple?

However, like the Rabbit said, the easy-peasy fix is to put it in the drill press and turn the cone down, and that way you can get a perfect fit with the caps you have.
Click to expand...

Ugly Sauce said:
Sometimes if a shooter has ignition problems (often due to incorrect cleaning or loading methods) they will install a musket nipple. Not unusual at all. I have one on my TC Hawken just due to the weird breech plug with the contorted flash channel they use on that gun.
Click to expand...

Hey, it's no insult at all! I honestly am just not very knowledgeable about this topic, even though I've been shooting cap and ball for a while, my experience goes as far as the RWS 1075s and Slix-Shot nipples since that was what I was able to find at the time. I left the rifle at my parents' house as that's where most of my tools are right now but I'll try to get a picture tonight. I'm not exactly sure what differentiates a musket nipple from the ones I'm familiar with, but I'll admit I was surprised too. From my reading a think the RWS caps tend to be pretty tight compared to other brands so perhaps that is part of the issue. It's a strangely shaped nipple, it seems to sort of taper from what I remember; the cap would start just fine, but even with what I consider to be exceptional force I just couldn't get it to seat all the way without worrying about the cap breaking. I do have access to a drill press, so if I can remove the nipple I may try that. Like I said, none of my wrenches fit the nipple, but I did order a musket nipple wrench as well so I will see if I have more luck with that.

The .45 wasn't my first choice, I went in sort of window-shopping without any intention to buy anything for a .50 or a .54 (and one day would like to get a .58) but that's what they happened to have, and as soon as I saw it I knew I was taking it home! I will say that despite the inlines being far more popular for hunting, I'm not sure the demand for traditional rifles has dropped all that much - I've been looking now for a couple months and what little is available seems to be very overpriced. I was excited to find this gal and broke my usual rule for buying guns and jumped on it without really knowing anything about it; I was glad to find when I got home that it was probably a good deal, haha.
 
hawg said:
A musket nipple is a lot bigger.
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That's what I thought, and mostly why I wondered if that might be what I'm dealing with. Could it be small enough for a #11 to fit just over the tip of it but not seat entirely? The nipple definitely looks bigger than the #11 nipples on my percussion revolvers, certainly too big for my caps or my nipple wrench.
 
I wouldn't "mind" having a .45". Just "because". .58" is the smallest bore rifle I have for hunting, and that is a very nice caliber. But, my .62 is what puts meat on the table. Overkill is just right.

There are obvious reasons where a larger caliber is preferable, but again a .45" is fine for deer, and more economical to target shoot for sure. I do have an original rifle that I'd like to use sometimes, but it's a .38" and our minimum caliber for big game in Washington State is .40".

Very curious to find out just what is going on with the cone on your rifle. Keep us informed.
 
bear166 said:
That's what I thought, and mostly why I wondered if that might be what I'm dealing with. Could it be small enough for a #11 to fit just over the tip of it but not seat entirely? The nipple definitely looks bigger than the #11 nipples on my percussion revolvers, certainly too big for my caps or my nipple wrench.
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Nope, not with my musket nips, and #11 caps.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
I wouldn't "mind" having a .45". Just "because". .58" is the smallest bore rifle I have for hunting, and that is a very nice caliber. But, my .62 is what puts meat on the table. Overkill is just right.

There are obvious reasons where a larger caliber is preferable, but again a .45" is fine for deer, and more economical to target shoot for sure. I do have an original rifle that I'd like to use sometimes, but it's a .38" and our minimum caliber for big game in Washington State is .40".

Very curious to find out just what is going on with the cone on your rifle. Keep us informed.
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I'm with you, I like to say "Don't get on board unless you're prepared to go overboard" and it applies as well to bullet size as it does anything. :thumbup:

I will report back hopefully in a few hours after I get a chance to check it out. The more I read about this, the more I wonder what on earth was ever actually supposed to go on that nipple. No doubt in my mind I'll get it shooting soon one way or another though.
 
bear166 said:
That's what I thought, and mostly why I wondered if that might be what I'm dealing with. Could it be small enough for a #11 to fit just over the tip of it but not seat entirely? The nipple definitely looks bigger than the #11 nipples on my percussion revolvers, certainly too big for my caps or my nipple wrench.
Click to expand...

Nope.

GfmMbMtl.jpg
 
I don't remember what the "standard" musket nipple is threaded too, but I suspect it will not be the same as the nipple sized for a #11 cap. Musket caps are bigger with a lot more material and need that big shroud at the end of the hammer to keep stuff from flying around and hitting you in the face/eyes. I'd be real careful trying to use musket caps on a rifle not designed for them. I think you can find a nipple sized for your caps that will fit the caps you have.
 
chickasaw_hunter said:
I don't remember what the "standard" musket nipple is threaded too, but I suspect it will not be the same as the nipple sized for a #11 cap. Musket caps are bigger with a lot more material and need that big shroud at the end of the hammer to keep stuff from flying around and hitting you in the face/eyes. I'd be real careful trying to use musket caps on a rifle not designed for them. I think you can find a nipple sized for your caps that will fit the caps you have.
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I think you're right. I went ahead and canceled the order after seeing hawg's comparison picture... Next step, figure out what kind of nipple I need (or just modify the one I have).
 
Well I got some pictures, with cap (and ill-fitting nipple wrench) for scale. I'm relatively certain this is supposed to be a #11 nipple at this point, but definitely too large for the cap to seat all the way down. A friend of mine was kind enough to lend me some CCI #11s and they are indeed the same size, and also don't fit. Guess I'll be on the lookout for a new nipple, or trim this one down a bit. PXL_20211129_232411796.MP.jpg PXL_20211129_232322054.MP.jpg PXL_20211129_232248938.MP.jpg
 
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