First muzzleloading rifle - a Hatfield .45 - and cap size confusion

[hawg]

That's a musket nipple. I wouldn't have thought a #11 cap would have even started on one but that's what it is.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That is one odd cone. Almost looks like a musket cone that someone trimmed down...but not all the way. Or...? Almost looks like a musket cap would fit. Or not. !!! Totally throwing out wild guesses here. A mystery. And a vented clean out screw. Also "interesting".

Actually no biggie. That nip can be turned down, or pull it off and figure what kind of threads it has, and get you a good stainless cone that caps actually fit on.

I wonder if some previous owner was shooting it that way. Hang-fire city! Or I suppose if the main-spring is good and stout, it may have worked. Or not. Or maybe they perched a musket cap on it, and had to be very careful it didn't fall off. Or perhaps they stuck a piece of fuse in it, and touched it off with a cigar. Or?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's a musket nipple. I wouldn't have thought a #11 cap would have even started on one but that's what it is.

Yes looks like it, but none of my musket nips are small enough to even allow getting a #11 started, like on the Hatfield. I think you are right, but to my eye it still looks too small for a musket, and of course too big for an #11.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I think the low price just reflects the lack of demand. "Modern" ML's have taken over the hunting field and the traditional muzzle loader guys usually already have enough rifles that they/we aren't going to jump on every rifle we come across, even at a very good price. Even though there's nothing wrong with a .45 for hunting, the trend now even among traditional rifle fans is more towards .54 caliber, with many .50" fans left, and people like me who prefer even bigger bores. I think that all worked in your favor. Good score.

I'm not familiar with a nipple that is that oversize for #11's. !!! I hate to insult you by asking this...but...it doesn't have a musket cap-nipple on it..? No of course not, sorry to ask. How about a picture of that-there giant nipple?

However, like the Rabbit said, the easy-peasy fix is to put it in the drill press and turn the cone down, and that way you can get a perfect fit with the caps you have.

Hey Ugly Sauce! I ran across some nipples on a revolver I tuned for a forum member that were quite a bit too large for a number 11 cap. Frankly I've never seen such an odd size nipple as on this particular pistol. Way too small for a musket cap, Not that you could get musket caps on it, way too big for a #11 cap. Fix was to turn them down.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Hey Ugly Sauce! I ran across some nipples on a revolver I tuned for a forum member that were quite a bit too large for a number 11 cap. Frankly I've never seen such an odd size nipple as on this particular pistol. Way too small for a musket cap, Not that you could get musket caps on it, way too big for a #11 cap. Fix was to turn them down.

Dang. The Mystery Nipples are out there. Must be some odd cap sizes in other parts of the world. ?

 

[bear166]

Interesting! Kind of wish I let the order go through then, just so we could answer this question once and for all. On the other hand, I suppose I don't need to be out $60 for some caps I can't use. Guess I'll just have to wrench it out of there, figure out the threads, and find a new nipple - I like the stainless ones more anyway. Plus, I'm tempted to keep the nipple around until one day I can figure out for sure what it's good for, if anything. I agree, at least compared to the picture posted earlier, it seems way too small to function as a musket nipple - I'm pretty sure one could certainly get the #11 to seat if one wanted to, but as annoying as hang fires are at the range, I certainly have no interest in experiencing one while trying to take a doe... If musket caps are indeed significantly bigger than #11s, I highly doubt it would seat well on this thing at all. It's only just ever so slightly too big for a #11.

Only thing I know is that if anyone was trying to fire it this way, maybe it's no surprise that it ended up at a pawn shop.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Only thing I know is that if anyone was trying to fire it this way, maybe it's no surprise that it ended up at a pawn shop.

That's what I'm thinking. The vented clean out screw could be an indication of ignition problems, real or imagined. Hey, it probably fired on the second or third try with that cone on it. Yeah, I think the best bet is a new nipple, not hard to figure out the thread size. You'll have a wide variety to choose from.

 

[hawg]

You can use this chart to find out what size it is.

 

[bear166]

Figured I'd give an update, and tack on one more question. I went ahead and replaced the order for some musket caps - being fairly certain now that's the kind of nipple I have, I figured what the hell - at least I can experiment myself and find what type of cap works best on this gal.

In addition, I'm looking to purchase a new nipple so I can use my #11s as well and see how they do. I believe I need a 6-.75mm nipple, which is simple enough, but Track sells two nipples in this threading, one with a cone length of .375" and another of .440". Not sure what difference that would really make, and I already sent them an email to see what they think, but was curious if any of you have a preference for one cone length over another. May as well get the best one while I'm at it...

 

[hawg]

I would take the nipple out and let the hammer down to see if it has enough reach to use the shortest one. If it does that's the one I would use.

 

[whughett]

From what I can see in the photos the hammer appears to have a recessed striking face. That’s for a 4 wing musket cap I believe.
See photos. RWS 1075 CCI 11 and a 4 wing musket cap. Musket cap on a carbine.

 

[bear166]

From what I can see in the photos the hammer appears to have a recessed striking face. That’s for a 4 wing musket cap I believe.
See photos. RWS 1075 CCI 11 and a 4 wing musket cap. Musket cap on a carbine. View attachment 1041260View attachment 1041261

Good eye, it does have a recessed striking face. Seeing the comparison picture you added, I do have a hard time believing a musket cap would actually seat firmly on the cone, which is *almost* small enough to allow the 1075s to seat. When they arrive, I'll post an update as to whether or not they fit.

 

[bear166]

Well fellas, since I promised an update, I'm here to deliver it despite it being a little embarrassing.

My musket caps came yesterday. They were far, far too big for the nipple - it was at this point that I started to wonder if I over-reacted to the poor fitting #11s.

I figured, what harm could be done in taking it out and just seeing what happens if I try to fire it? I'll blast a few caps, then load her up, and worst case scenario, I just have to extract the ball and wait for the new nipple I ordered to arrive.

Well, much as I regret wasting the money on the musket caps, I'm happy to report that she went "bang" every time and grouped as well as any rifle I own. Wish I took a picture. More importantly, it was the most fun I've had shooting in a long time.

Thanks everyone for participating in this peculiar nipple mystery. Turns out, nothing was wrong in the first place! Expensive lesson, but the result was what promises to be a lifetime of joyful smoke cloud-making. Maybe not so expensive after all.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's good...kind of. Even though your hammer and mainspring have enough force to smash the cap the rest of the way on, and fire it, I'd not say nothing was wrong. !!! I'm glad it works, but I'll feel much better when you get a new cone on the gun that actually fits the cap. Or the cap fits properly on it. Whichever.

Did you replace that clean-out screw?

Glad to hear she's a good shooter!

 

[bear166]

That's good...kind of. Even though your hammer and mainspring have enough force to smash the cap the rest of the way on, and fire it, I'd not say nothing was wrong. !!! I'm glad it works, but I'll feel much better when you get a new cone on the gun that actually fits the cap. Or the cap fits properly on it. Whichever.

Did you replace that clean-out screw?

Glad to hear she's a good shooter!

Absolutely, I'm hoping to get the new nipple this week (taking a while to ship) before taking it out hunting. After today I would not be afraid to take a shot if it came down to it but nothing would be worse than getting the shot of a lifetime only to hear an uneventful "click." Besides, it would be nice to be able to use my nipple wrench. Perfectly fine for having fun at the range though.

I did not replace the screw, should I? It didn't seem to cause any problems.

I am considering buying a musket nipple as well, partly out of curiosity and partly just so my new caps don't go to waste. Is there any reason I should avoid trying that out?

 

[hawg]

If the screw will come out I'd replace it. No reason not to use a musket nipple.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Others will disagree, but I have a musket nipple on my TC Hawken and....I like it. But some say "yay" and some say "no". No reason not to try it out.

Well, it looked to me like that clean out screw was drilled all the way through. ? Now there's really a conversation/controversy about vented breeches. It's not unusual, but usually the drum is drilled, with the hole pointing forward and up. The only problem it would cause would be if someone was standing on your right side, they might get some blast or stung with debris coming out of the vent when the rifle fired. Actually, same as with a flintlock. I for one, make sure no one is standing close to me on my right side when I touch one of my flintlocks off. If your clean out screw is drilled all the way through, or vented, it's the first time I've seen one vented like that. Of course drilling the screw makes it easier to "fix" than drilling the drum.

The theory behind a vented breech is that the flame from the cap travels to the main charge faster because it does not compress any air in front of it. I don't know it that's true or not. Usually some of the main charge spills into the drum. ? One other reason is that it will allow a heavier charge before hammer blow-back happens. However, when the hammer starts blowing back, kind of a hint that either the main spring is weak, or the pressure is really getting up there. Anyhow, no it won't hurt anything.

There are antique guns with vented breeches, so it's not just a "new thing". I have two rifles with vented breeches, I did it long ago after reading about it somewhere and thought it made sense to me. Now-a-days I would not bother, or argue in favor of it. Nor would I tell anyone it's a bad idea either.

It can be a sign that a previous owner was having ignition problems, whether it helped or not, or had anything to do with their ignition problems.

On your rifle of course you can experiment with both that drilled screw, or an un-drilled normal screw, and see if it makes any difference. Or, not worry about it. !!!

Hope that helps!

 

[bear166]

If the screw will come out I'd replace it. No reason not to use a musket nipple.

Good to know. The screw comes out fine, and cleans up nicely. I'm sure not opposed to replacing it, I'm just curious as to why it should be replaced. I'm not sure why it was added in the first place but it doesn't seem to be causing any problems that I was able to notice.

 

[bear166]

Others will disagree, but I have a musket nipple on my TC Hawken and....I like it. But some say "yay" and some say "no". No reason not to try it out.

Well, it looked to me like that clean out screw was drilled all the way through. ? Now there's really a conversation/controversy about vented breeches. It's not unusual, but usually the drum is drilled, with the hole pointing forward and up. The only problem it would cause would be if someone was standing on your right side, they might get some blast or stung with debris coming out of the vent when the rifle fired. Actually, same as with a flintlock. I for one, make sure no one is standing close to me on my right side when I touch one of my flintlocks off. If your clean out screw is drilled all the way through, or vented, it's the first time I've seen one vented like that. Of course drilling the screw makes it easier to "fix" than drilling the drum.

The theory behind a vented breech is that the flame from the cap travels to the main charge faster because it does not compress any air in front of it. I don't know it that's true or not. Usually some of the main charge spills into the drum. ? One other reason is that it will allow a heavier charge before hammer blow-back happens. However, when the hammer starts blowing back, kind of a hint that either the main spring is weak, or the pressure is really getting up there. Anyhow, no it won't hurt anything.

There are antique guns with vented breeches, so it's not just a "new thing". I have two rifles with vented breeches, I did it long ago after reading about it somewhere and thought it made sense to me. Now-a-days I would not bother, or argue in favor of it. Nor would I tell anyone it's a bad idea either.

It can be a sign that a previous owner was having ignition problems, whether it helped or not, or had anything to do with their ignition problems.

On your rifle of course you can experiment with both that drilled screw, or an un-drilled normal screw, and see if it makes any difference. Or, not worry about it. !!!

Hope that helps!

Ah okay, that makes some sense! Yes, it is drilled through and naturally I wouldn't shoot it with someone right next to me. Maybe I'll experiment with it a little. Ignition is very consistent as is, but I'm very much the sort to play around and find what works the best.

 

[hawg]

I see no reason for it to be vented. I've never seen one vented before.

 

[bear166]

I see no reason for it to be vented. I've never seen one vented before.

I really don't either. I had a friend who's been shooting these things for decades take a look at it the day I got it, and he didn't really know what to make of it either. The local hardware store does have a section for gun screws, maybe I'll take a look and see if a non-vented screw makes any difference.

 

[SC45-70]

Years ago I tried the vented screw. In my rifle after a few shots the drum would foul and the flame from the cap would come out the vent causing a hang fire or mis fire so I abandoned that idea.

SC45-70

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I would agree that there is any reason to vent the drum these days. And generally speaking, if one has ignition problems it's usually "pilot error". Or perhaps the flash channel from/through the drum into the breech is very tiny, in which case enlarging that would be a better cure.

Venting the screw is probably a poor choice, for the reason SC45-70 states. Normally, the "correct" way to do a drum is drill the vent as close to the barrel as possible.

As mentioned, usually some powder from the main charge spills into the drum when loading, so the cap flash really does not have that far to go.

Having said that, I think it would be interesting and informative to shoot the gun some more with the vented screw, then switch to a normal screw, and see if there's any difference at all.

 

[Acorn Mush]

I am considering buying a musket nipple as well, partly out of curiosity and partly just so my new caps don't go to waste. Is there any reason I should avoid trying that out?

Regarding the use of a musket nipple, please be sure the recess in the hammer nose is large enough to accommodate a musket cap, and that it is well-centered on the nipple when at rest. If not well-centered, some heating and bending of the hammer may be in order.

Wishing you success in your endeavor.

 

[bear166]

Good stuff guys! Certainly I have not experienced any issues whatsoever regarding misfires, hangfires, or even delayed fires. But logically speaking, I can sure see how fouling could direct the flame out the vent, so that is something to consider. For the sake of experiment at least, I will try to find a non-vented screw and just see what happens.

Regarding the hammer - the nose is definitely large enough to accommodate a musket cap, but I will have to double-check center before I order yet another new nipple.

Also, I have to admit I've caught the bug. I took her out again today because I just wasn't satisfied with the ~10 shots I took yesterday, and this time I did think to take a picture of the result. The lower three shots were from me figuring the drop at 50 yards with 60 grains of powder (bottom two were aimed at center, the next was aimed about two inches above center) and the shot to the very far upper right was just me pushing to see what it could do with significant fouling, I believe that shot was the fifth between Ballistol swabs. So I won't count those four shots as part of the group. The rest were aimed at about the top of the third circle, giving me the group of six seen here (the bottom right most of those six being the fourth between swabs, I'm counting it but generally would not shoot that many without swabbing). I'm not the best shot in general so to get a group like this at 50 yards on only the second time out with the rifle (yesterday shooting mostly offhand at the 25 yarder), I am very happy to say the least. Also goes to show that swabbing the bore really does have a substantial effect, I was swabbing every two or three shots before the final five. To conclude, I own a lot of other rifles - this has already taken first place as my favorite, even if I have some more practicing to do. My previous favorite was an '84 Trapdoor that I shoot 65 grains of 2F in; very nice gun, and almost as accurate as this one, but something about the loading process just makes this a lot more enjoyable.