Flat primers

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Dakota Bones

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loaded up 10 140gr. Hornady XTP,with Win. 296 start load of 17.1 gr, 357 Mag Win. brass new, Win. SPM primers. The gun is a 6" S&W 686, The primers were flat that you could hardly see the bevel of the primer hole in the brass. I heard that you are not to reduce the loads with this powder. What is the bare min. that I can use with this bulet & powder. Thanks
 
It's interesting to look at primers but they often don't really tell you anything useful about the pressure. More importantly, how did the fired cases extract from the cylinder? If they push out easily, then you're usually in good shape. If you need a block of wood to beat the extractor pin out, then you're definitely in high pressure territory.

Yeah, they SAY you're not supposed to reduce the charge on 296. But look at a few different manuals and you will see a good bit of deviation concerning the starting loads. I wouldn't reduce it very much, but if you're talking about lowering it down to 16.5 just to see what happens, you're probably safe. Main thing though is if the cases extract easily, the primers are just an interesting sidelight.
 
I think you are a little low with your powder charge. WIN296 does not like a reduced charge. I use 18.0 grains with Hornady 140 grain XTP's, Federal Magnum Pistol primers, and Starline?? cases. This is my favorite accuracy loading to shoot in my two Ruger GP-100's with 6" heavy barrels. Primer choice will affect pressure and correct reading of pressure.
Hornady 7th Edition recommends range of 15.8 to 18.2 with 296 in a 6 inch Python.
Hornady 7th Edition recommends range of 11.1 to 19.2 with 296 in a 16 inch Rossi rifle.
I personally would not go below 16.0 grains to prevent "detonation" and pressure spikes that it generates.
 
IMO, you need to stick to what www.hodgdon.com load site indicates for a start load, which is 17.1gr of W296/H110 with a 140gr jacketed bullet and nothing less.
As mentioned, if your brass is ejecting normally, the primers are less of an issue.
H110/W296 need a good crimp and top pressures to burn well, and reduced charges can cause erratic burning and stuck bullets.
If you're concerned about pressure, then use a less quirky powder so that you can adjust charges without worry.
Ramshot Enforcer, Accurate #7 and #9 and Alliant 2400 are all good.



NCsmitty
 
Thanks for the comeback. The brass ejects just fine, and the load shoots good. I will try some CCI SPM primers, and see how they do. If they are flat too, I will have to live with flatened primers till that powder is gone. Thank's again.
 
ALSO.....DO NOT lose sight of the fact that ball powders like H110/296 tend to give goofy looking primers because the propellent flows in and fills the spaces in the primer pocket not accupied by the primer. Therefore you have a lot more going on in the primer pocket upon ignition than the firing of the primer itself. BUT IT AIN'T NO BIG DEAL !!!
And so it goes...
 
Instead of looking at arbitrary factors, why don't you work-up a load and choose the charge weight that produces the best accuracy?
 
Powder reduction for W296 has always been 3% below maximum (no more) for a start load per every Winchester publication I have since 1974.
 
I always consider the primer's as some indication of pressure, but certainly not an exclusive means of reading pressure's. I load gobbs of .357 mag. with both H110 and 296 exclusively and often get primers that are so flat that the entire pocket is filled to its extreme. Top hat primer's are common in the world of H110/296 loading. But if I encounter hard extraction, I know with a fair amount of certainty that I'm knocking on the door, and either go up or down with my powder charge at that point.
I don't know if I loaed those 140's as yet, but I load just about everything else. For the 158's I'm running 16.4 to 17.4 without any high pressure's at all. Your powder charge with those 140's seems rather low considering what I'm using with the 158's. Also of possible consideration is the primer it's self. I used some Win SPM primer's recently and ran into some significantly higher pressure's unexpectably. I didn't do a work up since the only thing I was doing different was changing brands of primers from CCI-550's to the Win. SPM's. So based on my experience I would guess that the Win. primer's may be quite a bit hotter than CCI.
 
"Trust your data, not pressure signs."

I know of one Colt Python that would have had more than a cracked forcing cone if I had not used all the pressure signs,primers,felt recoil,extraction,and data verified with a chronograph.It had an off center forcing cone that couldn't be seen by the naked eye till the barrel was out of the frame.
 
That advice can blow up a gun.
Click to expand...
Hogwash. I'll always defer to folks who know a hell of a lot more about this stuff than I do and they all say that pressure signs in straight wall pistol cartridges are unreliable at best.

From this article:
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm

"Straight cases handle pressure differently than bottle-neck cartridges and often show no excessive pressure signs. We have blown a few guns up here, on purpose, and in all instances upon recovery of the cylinder fragments and case remains, the primer has shown normal pressure. Pressures in these instances have run from 70,000 to over 100,000 psi in our estimation. Do not depend on case pressure signs for danger signs in a sixgun. In most cases the first sign of high pressure you will have, other than excessive recoil and blast, is a bulged cylinder or cracked bolt notch."
 
Blowing guns up by double charging is a poor analogy to working up a load and reading primers.
 
Take new brass & load your load , measure the head just above the rim before & after .

You`ll need a venier caliper to do so but that`ll tell you more `bout apperochin max pressures .

There a still variables , such as the elasticity of the lot of braass you have & remember primer cups are made of brass .

When younger & dumber me & a friend done some testing with 550 primers & we could never get 1 to "blow" & we put enuff 296/H110 in a 357 case it actually slowed down !!

We were using a Ruger Redhawk though !!!
 
Blowing guns up by double charging is a poor analogy to working up a load and reading primers.
Click to expand...
And taking statements out of context and oversimplifying in the process is somehow a proper response? And you know more about handloading and pressure signs than Linebaugh? How exactly do you doublecharge a caseful of slow burning powder?
 
I've had the same issue with lower end loads in .357 using Win brass and Win primers. With brand new brass I noticed it was pretty easy to seat the primers. I worried about it, but after reading it looks like the Win brass has relatively large primer pockets and the Win primers have relatively small and soft cups (compared to CCI etc.). The combined effect is you get flat primers and even flow of the cup into the breechface firing pin hole at much lower pressure than with other components.

I don't think it is a big deal. But, as others have suggested, you can avoid it by switching to CCI primers.
 
Hey guys, thanks alot for all information. I can see that I have to buy more CCI primers. I use them for high power , but got a deal on the Win. primers WSPM and have about 700 left. Maybe I can use they my plinking loads with Unique. I will try CCI and 17.5-18.0 gr. of Win. 296.
 
You will end up looking like a fool.
Click to expand...
And this is another proper response? I'm wrong, Linebaugh is wrong, don't question me because you'll look like a fool? Please. You'll have to do better than that.

If the point of reading pressure signs is to avoid a catastrophic failure, then how is a gun that DID fail catastrophically but showed no excessive pressure signs NOT evidence contrary to your opinion??? It is so easy to poke so many h oles in the following post, yet I feel no need to make the poster "look like a fool". Are we here to discuss handloading or thump our chests?

"I always consider the primer's as some indication of pressure, but certainly not an exclusive means of reading pressure's. I load gobbs of .357 mag. with both H110 and 296 exclusively and often get primers that are so flat that the entire pocket is filled to its extreme. Top hat primer's are common in the world of H110/296 loading. But if I encounter hard extraction, I know with a fair amount of certainty that I'm knocking on the door, and either go up or down with my powder charge at that point.
I don't know if I loaed those 140's as yet, but I load just about everything else. For the 158's I'm running 16.4 to 17.4 without any high pressure's at all. Your powder charge with those 140's seems rather low considering what I'm using with the 158's. Also of possible consideration is the primer it's self. I used some Win SPM primer's recently and ran into some significantly higher pressure's unexpectably. I didn't do a work up since the only thing I was doing different was changing brands of primers from CCI-550's to the Win. SPM's. So based on my experience I would guess that the Win. primer's may be quite a bit hotter than CCI."

PS, Wil Terry above probably knows more about handloading than any ten people here.
 
The OP is not going to blow up his gun by following published data and reading primers.

Linebaugh did not blow uo one gun by following published data. He blew up his gun by seeing how much his gun would take before it blew. See the difference? If you can't, please stop posting your advice.
 
Craig

Calm down a bit. You said something like trust published data & you can't go wrong & I said something like that advice can blow up a gun. Both of use was using broad statements. You then came back saying something about revolver which narrows the field quite a bit. You also asked if I know more then the guy you quoted. I don't know anything about the man you quoted & I doubt if he knows me so we are even there. My examples are with a pistol & bolt rifle so they can't relate to a revolver. I load for a TCP which is .380 & the ramp is so deep it is past the web & most load data will shove the side of the case out. I was loading for .223 Rem I don't remember the load but I think it was with H335 powder using data from Hodgdon the starting load was fine everything looked good but when I went 0.2gr higher it was popping primers.

From what I read of your post I think the point was not to watch for pressure signs to determine a safe load. I agree completely with that. By the time you see signs of pressure you are to far past where you should be but you should always look for them.

I don't fell the OP is over pressure at that load ether. If anything he might stick one in the cone.

If you still think it's Hog Wash then I hope you stay lucky.
 
Hey guys, thanks alot for all information. I can see that I have to buy more CCI primers. I use them for high power , but got a deal on the Win. primers WSPM and have about 700 left. Maybe I can use they my plinking loads with Unique. I will try CCI and 17.5-18.0 gr. of Win. 296.
Click to expand...

Good luck. I hope what I wrote was helpful. It was unnerving for me at first until I figured out what was going on with the brass and primers.
 
hey dakota bones, win 296 lites better with a magnum primer. are those cci550 or 500?

murf
 
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