Florida again, At least this little girl was not Tazed.

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Heres the address for the video;

http://www.sptimesphotos.com/video/office.html

LawDog;

You have parsed my posting up and taken everything out of context.

On this site I also saw the classroom tape that I hadn't seen. After viewing that tape I will agree she is not as large as she appeared in the office. "Large" was part of a general word picture of what I saw.

I never said she was a danger to the principal. She is a danger to herself. Are you saying that a child breaking things, running around out of control and climbing across tables after trashing an office is not a danger to herself. In the begining of the office video she is clawing at what appears to be a thermostat or wall switch.

As I said this isn't a sexy call but not all police work involves 9mm's or nuclear triggers.
 
I've been a cop since 1993, Mike, I know about police work.

She is a danger to herself. Are you saying that a child breaking things, running around out of control and climbing across tables after trashing an office is not a danger to herself.
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As we speak, a passel of my nieces and nephews are tearing around the front yard. Somebody's getting pummeled by the twins, somebody else is gnawing on the bullmastiff's tail and there're at least two of 'em up the pecan tree and still going.

The front yard is, to put it mildly, getting trashed.

*shrug* Don't see a need to put any of them in handcuffs.

From what I saw on the video, the little girl should have been picked up, taken to an empty gym or an empty play area, and allowed to go ape**** to her heart's content, with somebody supervising from the sidelines. When mama got there, mama should have been informed that her little girl was expelled and to not bring her back, and the supervisor should have gone about his or her business.

YMMV, though.

LawDog
 
It is kind of unsettling watching an adult act so impotent around a kid who is acting up. Like that "Twilight Zone" where the kid can kill people with his thoughts, so all the adults act subservient to him. Creepy.

You can't tell me that one or two grown adults can't restrain a five year who's goin' bananas. A good butt whoopin is what this kid needs.
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Giving a "butt whoopin" is illegal for most teachers in most states.

I think calling the cops on a nutty 5-year-old is insane. But what's the alternative? You can't physically restrain the brat, you certainly can't beat their dumb ass, there probalby isn't a child psychologist handy, the parents ain't coming, and they are probably idiots anyway. All reasonable courses of action are illegal or unavailable. What's left?

:confused:
 
From what I saw on the video, the little girl should have been picked up, taken to an empty gym or an empty play area, and allowed to go ape**** to her heart's content, with somebody supervising from the sidelines. When mama got there, mama should have been informed that her little girl was expelled and to not bring her back, and the supervisor should have gone about his or her business.
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That's probably the best alternative, of course the kid will probalby soil itself or give itself a mild injury, and the "parents" will then sue the school for child endangerment. :barf:
 
In my town this 5 year old

would have ended up in our emergency room, assessed and a psychiatrist called. This child would have ended up in our Adolescent Behavior health unit being proclaimed really sick. She would have then been labled with either Major Depression or Intermittant Explosive disorder. Then the psychiatrist would have prescribed 1 to 4 meds for this child because she is so sick. All for a temper tantrum that if the school personell were still allowed to dicsipline children would end in short order. :barf:
 
Fortunately in Pennsylvania, the law allows teachers to use force necessary to protect a child from themselves or to protect others from them. Teachers have the same rights and authority over their students that parents have. It is rather disturbing to watch the teacher powerless to take firm action to protect this child from herself. Another of a growing list of reasons I won't be moving to Florida anytime soon.

Does anybody know if she is forbidden from restraining this child by school policy or state law?
 
I concur with lawdog and with some of the others. Take the munchkin to the gym and give her a kick ball and let her kick the ball to her hearts content, when her parent shows up, Id show her a video tape of the childs behavior and have a social worker present to make an appointment. The kids got problems and sounds like the parent does as well.


Time outs in a corner or chair will only work to an extent and certainly not if some sort of discipline has not been done earlier. If the kids acting up at school, shes acting up at home and nobody is doing anything to correct the behavior...if someone at school disiplines her and shes going home each day after school and acting out while nothing is being done, nothing is going to correct it.

back in the day, we were diciplined by first a call to the folks then next time it was a trip to the office to meet the paddle then another call to parents.If that didnt work, we were expelled the rest of the year and made to repeat the class. I personally got 1 call to my folks for telling a lie about a homwork assignment, I said that it was done, I'd forgot it at home. Do you know after school, the principal called my folks and drove me home to collect it?busted aint the word. ...that was all it took.
 
This episode clearly shows the total lack of responsibility that some parents take for raising their children. The little brat was obviously never disciplined at home and her actions in the video demonstrate that she has learned that bad behavior has its rewards.

The legislatures have tied the hands of teachers and school administrators as far as immediate corrective action. But little miscreants can still be segregated from other students. Let the little brats kick, scream and tear up anything they want in isolation. Then present Mommy or Daddy a bill for damages and special services rendered when they finally show up to pick up their Little Angel. Things won't change until someone, either the little brats or the parents, are taught that bad behavior does have consequences.
 
I saw the tape, too. The brat was clearly out of control, obviously had not been taught to keep her hands to herself (then again, she's 5), but hardly dangerous. I don't know what the correct response should be (I like the blanet idea), but I'd have been inclined to put the grab on her and do the bear hug thing or pin her down (sit on her, if necessary) until she calmed down (I'm way bigger than the average 5 Y.O.).

Unfortunately, there's no way to physically deal with a petulant brat that won't get you sued in the pubik skul system if the parents are so inclined. Teachers don't desrve this ca ca.
 
Concur with Lawdog

absolutely, in letter and spirit. It's like taking yer kitty to the vet, without carrier. (or like giving it a bath) There is going to be an inevitable amount of clawing, scratching and yowling, but the kid prolly won't be able to kick yer big grownup a** while you have one arm around her middle, fending off her blows with the other, while you take her to the Naughty Closet (pleasant low-stimulation room) for her to chill out while you figure out what started the whole business in the first place.

Y'know, maybe she had a legitimate grievance, maybe she's a little weird in the head, maybe she's naturally nasty, maybe the noise got to her, maybe... etc etc.
 
Oh, and since when did we have govt. Kindergartens?

I thought compulsory government screwling didn't start until age 6? I grew up in FL, and my parents paid for private KG.

And, yes, I think I recall being bullyed by some of the other kids, even then. The bullys were, as always, in good odor with the authorities. Maybe that's why she was yelling and screaming?
 
If Not The Police, Who Do You Call?

I sometimes work for mental health, and I have been in that type of situation. The only time I been hit, beaten, spit on, and kicked was by a 5 year old in a childrens shelter. Then the county employee told the child not to bite the me. Thank you, he had not even thought of that. Now I have another problem to worry about.

first, in my case, the child was a danger to self and everyone else in the shelter. Second, there were only two workers and myself at the shelter. No one could leave to take him anywere and if you tried you were likely to be attacked while driving the car. Holding him down gets old after a few minuiets and if you dont, you are going to be bit. Third, the older kids in the shelter had enough of him and were about to take him out by whatever means needed.

The only recouse we had was to call the police. The nurses declared him a 5150 (danger to self or others) and the police took the child to the adult locked mental health unit.

Who else can transport someone in that condition? Pretty much it is only the police. Is it not the duty of the police to serve and protect?

My thoughts on this child was that he needed to be taken to a large ranch and allowed to run off his anger by chasing rabbits and such. Not much chance of that. The only thing the workers could do was offer rewards, or take away privlages. At his state of mind any type of structure was unacceptable and he would either fight or run. That also ruled out adoption or foster care.

I have been doing this for almost twenty years, and there more young childern entering the system each year. The increase is in the orders of magnatude. In the first 8 to 10 years we had only about 2 young children that were in the adult system. This year we must have had at least 20 children in the system, and one of these (a 13 yrs old) is deadly now and will be lethal when she is full grown. (The only times I have been scared for my employee's was when we have transported her.)
 
I diasagree with almost everyone

I am willing to bet the little girl has gotten alot of "butt whoopin" at home & that is the problem.
We had plenty of but whooping in my home (little sister included)
and in my day in Catholic school the nuns would hit you with a ruler and dad would use a belt when he found out you got smacked because you said "hail mary in outer space" to loud.
I obeyed my parets and nuns and got smacked anyway,my little sister only obeyed my parents on threat of multiple but whoopings and back and head whoopings.
She never obeyed any teacher that didn't say please and thank you.
She had a truant officer come after her in kindergarten in 1968,he grabbed her and got bit by her!
She went and got the dog a big old rotty lab mix and no one was able to get her untill my dad showed up.
Dad was an old fashioned cop who whupped her but good she had black and blue welts on her rear and back and you know what?
didn't make a darn difference at all even a little.
she felt she was created equal and no one had the right to tell her what to do if she wasn't hurting anyone.and if the nun couldn't say please sit still or thank you for listening then she couldn't understand why she should respect someone who couldn't show her equal respect
Today she has six kids,all doing real well in school (and real polite good kids too). She somehow managed to do this without any "whoopings" but to this day she has little use for police and nuns.
the only effect getting her little rearend whooped had was dad never got to meet his grandkids before he died.
 
I've worked with kids who had worse

problems then that kid.
at "Sandy Pines" long term treatment facility in FL...what is it about FL these days?
anyway beatings are part of the problem not part of the solution.
like some one said earlier stick the kid in the gym until she calms down,if she is biting transport her in a blanket.
I have had to subdue teenage murderers and 8 year old molesters when I worked at the mental hospital.
if you cant handle a 5 yr old it's time to quit teaching!!!
 
Interesting...

responses. A few other things to consider.

-- Any individual as completely unresponsive to verbal and physical direction as this child seems to be is a danger to herself or others. It is true that no injuries happened but the potential was definately there. Lurking in the background was a desk with a cup of pointy objects. Should the adult in this situation be required to actually sustain an injury priot to having the child removed from the situation?

-- Anyone thinking that the parents of that child, upon seeing the video tape would have any response except, "What do you mean you were putting your hands on my child. You best be getting yourself a lawyer." has never dealt with the parents of out of control children. Public discourse regularly features expressions of the worthlessness of public schools, and by extention, public school teachers. Even a reading of this short thread reveals such expressions. I'd be willing to bet a days worth of range ammo that this child has repeatedly heard those same type of expressions on a regular basis. Any wonder she's refusing to listen to someone declared stupid or worthless by her parents?

-- Actually getting a child expelled from public school...yeah, good luck on that one. Even if you actually do manage to get the student barred from physical attendance the school district is likely to find itself having to provide the student with a private tutor so the child won't be deprived of a free, appropriate public education. If the student is a special eduation student it gets ever more complicated.

migoi
 
I used to teach High school and one of the reasons I left teaching was after I was officially reprimanded by the District for physically restraining a 6+foot tall D1 football recruit from continuing to punch his 5'2'' girlfriend. I was told there was no reason for me to open the district to the Liability of getting physical with a student no matter what the situation.

Folks this is/was a liability issue.

The school must have felt they had no option to use physical force to restrain the child, and yes I have seen a seven year old with a ball point pen in her abdomen after a 6 year old got upset at being called "shorty" Yes every person in that room and building could have restrained that girl, but the fact that cops knew her and her mom was unreachable and THE SCHOOL VIDEOED THE WHOLE THING tells me Mom has not been a team player in the situation, perhaps even threatening lawsuits if her little angle is ever disciplined again. Why else would you detail a school employee to tape the incident?

My student teaching was at a urban school known for taking kids no one else wanted, they used time out rooms, a exercise regime on hyper active kids, a squirt of dishsoap in the mouth for dirty language and screaming. BIG pink mittens for kids who could not keep hands to themselves or who borrowed things. All of this was told and approved of by the parents befreo they accepted the student. The school had a high level of success, but also a high level of dropout rate or transfer rate.
 
Sad as it is, schools seem to be hamstrung with respect to disciplining children. Calling in the cops appears to have been a way to pass the buck to some other authority figure. It was a way to avoid a lawsuit.

I did find it interesting that the girl seemed to calm down the moment that the "uniforms" arrived...
 
Did anyone catch what the officer said after "remeber me?" It sounds like "I'm the one your mom told to put handcuffs on you". Maybe that sort of explains it. But overall, I gotta go with Lawdog on this one. She's 5 years old.Change the laws and kick her out of school, let her loose in the gym, whatever, there just isn't a need to handcuff 5YO's.
 
The 5 year old was out of control and needed to be restrained. Now, how do you do that in this day and age without getting sued? You call the cops. Now I do believe that cops have only certain approved ways to restrain people, whether they are 5 or 55. They to risk being sued or disiplined for not following procedure, so they handcuffed the little brat. I say give them a medal. Now in a world where things are as they should be, this little brat would have already known about the paddle with the holes in it, down at the princibles office.....and maybe just maybe she would have been just a little more behaved.
 
If our schools are to the point where they cannot legally deal with an unruley 5YO then they are broken. Either ditch the government schools altogether or fix such an obvious problem.
 
I dunnoh, the best way to deal with a 5 year old having a tantrum is to redirect her energy and make her forget what she was freaking out about.

I would have offered her a candy bar or a lolipop, or something to drink or a toy to play with. Perhaps I would have led her into a room with very little in it, like the detention room or the Gym, offerred her a toy to play with or read her a story.

Beating a small child is illegal in most states especially if it leaves a mark, in DE corporal punnishment is ok as long as there is no permanent injury or a mark. Personnaly I have found that does not work with an already violent child. Distracting her with a toy a treat or a story and removeing her to a quiet area UNTIL the PARENTS arrive is the way to go.

Her violent behavor and hitting an adult in authority menas that she has probably been beaten and abused at home. My neighbor has three kids ages 9-3 years old, they are big believers in corporal punnishment, and it shows, the kids routinely beat the crap out of each other, and tend to hit other kids as well. I dont let my children play with them due to the violence they exhibit. They are not allowed to play with supersoakers or toy guns though.

My children who are not hit ever are polite and well behaved, and they respect authority, good parenting does not mean a good beating.



JMHO YMMV.
 
Knowing from long experience that things never work out as they should or as they are planned . . .

1) 5-year old becomes extremely (and I mean e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y !!) unruly;

2) teacher attempts to clam 5-year old;
3) teacher fails, and calls an administrator;
4) administrator tries unsuccessfully;
5) administrator takes 5-yar old to office & calls Mommy (or Daddy);
6) Mommy/Daddy cannot or will not come to school to take custody;
7) administrator calls Social Services / Child Welfare Services / whatever they're clled in the state in question;
8) child delivered to tender mercies of state social services (shudder. . .);
9) Mommy/Daddy have to go through legal hoops of reclaiming child;
10) Child expelled from school or sent to an alternative school.

There are no pretty solutions for a child this out-of-control (regardless of the reasons for the behavior), but I'm with LawDog. When I was a cop, I would not have appreciated a school administration calling me in to deal with an unruly 5-year old!
 
5 yr old

I donot know for a fact or have a link but it was stated on another board I'm on that the police involved were the school district police.

Bob
 
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