Flying in near future, making sure I understand how to travel with a handgun.

[Balrog]

It has been 5 or 6 years since I travelled by air with a handgun. I will be flying from Birmingham, Alabama to Las Vegas, then will immediately leave LV and drive to Grand Canyon, the national parks in Utah, and finally to Denver where I will fly home. I am familiar with the rules regarding guns in National Parks, but less familiar with traveling by air with a handgun.

Last time I traveled by air with a handgun, I had the unloaded gun in a locked case which was placed inside my suitcase. I remember I had the ammo in a factory box, but don't remember if it was in the locked case with gun or just packed separately in the suitcase.

I don't remember there being anything special I had to do when I got to my destination, other than pick up the suitcase in baggage claim. Do bags with guns inside them just go to the main baggage claim or are they picked up separately elsewhere?

Anything in particular about flying with a handgun from Birmingham, or picking it up in LV that I need to be aware of? How about Denver?

Thanks

 

[bearcreek]

It has been 5 or 6 years since I travelled by air with a handgun. I will be flying from Birmingham, Alabama to Las Vegas, then will immediately leave LV and drive to Grand Canyon, the national parks in Utah, and finally to Denver where I will fly home. I am familiar with the rules regarding guns in National Parks, but less familiar with traveling by air with a handgun.

Last time I traveled by air with a handgun, I had the unloaded gun in a locked case which was placed inside my suitcase. I remember I had the ammo in a factory box, but don't remember if it was in the locked case with gun or just packed separately in the suitcase.

I don't remember there being anything special I had to do when I got to my destination, other than pick up the suitcase in baggage claim. Do bags with guns inside them just go to the main baggage claim or are they picked up separately elsewhere?

Anything in particular about flying with a handgun from Birmingham, or picking it up in LV that I need to be aware of? How about Denver?

Thanks

Nothing has changed in that time. The gun must be in a locked, hard case. You should use a non-TSA lock as they are not permitted to open the case without you present. The hard case can be inside your suitcase or it can be on it's own or it can be your suitcase. I've used a large tool box and packed the gun and all the rest of my luggage in it. Often, but not always, the bag will be pulled aside and waiting for you at the service counter off to the side of baggage claim. On several occasions I've been able to pick up my bag and be on my way before my fellow passengers began getting their bags off the carousel. The ammo does not need to be in the factory box necessarily, it just has to be "securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition". I normally use one of the plastic hard boxes for the ammo. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

 

[Armored farmer]

I like to run a cable lock through the open action of my pistol, insuring that my gun is obviously unloaded.
I also run a homemade cable through the frame of my luggage and lock it.
My wife thinks we get priority treatment when I fly with my pistol. They even give me extra time when boarding sometimes? I'm not sure why...just being helpful I guess.
Southwest airline has been great.

 

[Tilos]

Visit the website of the airlines' you will be travelling on.
They will have all the information you need for checking a gun.

Different airlines interpret TSA rules differently and have been very accommodating explaining things to me at check-in.
On one occasion an agent showed be a big red tag (contains firearms) that is required by the TSA/FAA but said nothing says it had to be on the outside and tossed into my open case before I locked it.

I have noticed agents standing off watching me at luggage pick-up when retrieving my checked firearms.
I still opened my bag to verify the gun was still in there though, before I left the area, it was.
Um, it goes without saying, I did not take the gun out of the case.
jmo,
.

 

[CapnMac]

As this is Legal, Federal statute is
49 CFR §1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals [snip, emphasis added]

(a) On an individual's person or accessible property—prohibitions. Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, an individual may not have a weapon,
explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property—

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under
§ 1562.23 of this chapter:

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her
bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

The rest is down to TSA procedures, and the tariff rules of the Common Carrier selected (in this case the individual air line, which is allowed to be more restrictive under US law).

Really this would be better in General than in Legal.

 

[CapnMac]

or picking it up in LV that I need to be aware of? How about Denver?

From potentially fickle memory the city of Las Vegas is more restrictive than Clark County, but that will want the experience of a Nevadan. FOPA ought permit puttign the luggage in the trunk of your rental car until into a jurisdiction where one could don the thing.

Also from memory, the State of Colorado has some onerous restrictions on magazine size. But, if locked in the trunk in the suitcase, then FOPA would apply once again. This will want more sage advice from Coloradans.

 

[JohnKSa]

1. Be sure that it is legal for you to possess the weapon/ammuntion/accessories at your destination.
2. If there are layovers, it would be wise to verify that possession is legal there if you plan to take possession of your bags for the layover.
3. If there are connections, you might want to check that possession is legal there in case you end up delayed and have to spend the night.
4. If your flight is diverted, check the legality of possession there before taking possession of your luggage.

 

[Balrog]

From potentially fickle memory the city of Las Vegas is more restrictive than Clark County, but that will want the experience of a Nevadan. FOPA ought permit puttign the luggage in the trunk of your rental car until into a jurisdiction where one could don the thing.

Also from memory, the State of Colorado has some onerous restrictions on magazine size. But, if locked in the trunk in the suitcase, then FOPA would apply once again. This will want more sage advice from Coloradans.

From what I can tell, Colorado has a 15 round limit on mags. I will be bringing a Sig p365 with 10 round mag.

 

[herrwalther]

Nothing I know of has changed in that time frame about flying with a firearm. Here are some of the things I do to make things easier on myself and everyone else. In no particular order.

1. I print off the TSA and airline regulations about flying with a firearm. And I keep them on me. You may get an agent that has no idea the rules about doing so and have to show them in their own policies.
2. I run a cable through the action of the firearm I am carrying. Sometimes the case gets opened to verify empty. Sometimes it gets thrown on a separate X-ray machine. Either way, a cable through and even Stevie Wonder knows its unloaded.
3. I always travel with factory ammo in a factory box. The rules are a little vague if having a loaded magazine counts as enclosed. So I just empty the mag and ammo back in the box. I have a pistol case with 2 layers. Ammo boxes and mags go on the bottom.
4. My suitcase has an internal frame with metal bars. My pistol case either has two built in locks or two lock holes. I run a security cable through the case and the internal frame of my luggage. If someone wants to steal my suitcase. They are going to work for the firearms inside. I also put a Galaxy tag inside my suitcase so I know where it is at all times.

 

[bearcreek]

Something to keep in mind regarding cables through actions. I have had ticket agents and TSA ask me to open the action and verify that the gun was unloaded. Many of them don't have the faintest idea what an unloaded vs loaded firearm looks like, so a cable through the action will not necessarily eliminate the possibility of this request.

 

[jstert]

i have flown in and out of bham and lv, and many times elsewhere, with checked handguns. my experience:
-unloaded handgun.
-unloaded mags if a pistol; unloaded speedloaders if a revolver.
-ammo in factory boxes or plastic reload cases that i tape shut.
-both handguns and ammo placed in plastic, double point, two-locked case, with two non-tsa locks.
-only once did an airline clerk asked me to move ammo outside the locked handgun case to elsewhere in the checked bag. go figure, i couldn’t.
-holster, earmuffs, cleaning gear, etc. needn’t be locked up inside the checked bag.
-locked case placed inside a tsa-locked, hard- or soft-sided, checked, suitcase or bag.
-checked bag is specially tagged for you to retrieve in person with confirmed identity at destination luggage service desk.
-special checked bag tag means tracked handling. i don’t cable lock the handgun case to the checked bag. i don’t fly with expensive handguns, or anything else valuable for that matter, in a checked bag.

please arrive at checkin early, be patient with airline staff who generally are blissfully ignorant about, or scared of, or ill-disposed to, firearms. they have a stressful job and it’s best to not add to it. for my part, i dress and act sedately and pleasantly, like the untactical, traditional, quiet guy that i am.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I've used TSA locks on all my pistol cases when flying - no issues at all for over two decades. The cases are inside my luggage.

If TSA has an issue and cannot get ahold of me for any reason, then they can still open the case to look at what they want to look at. Otherwise my gun case/luggage will be left at the originating airport if there's some kind of foul up.

"You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks." -- https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

I also use TSA locks to lock my luggage - the ones with a "tattletale" feature that alerts me that TSA has been inside my bag. TSA is supposed to put a written notice when they open your bag for inspection but they don't always do that because the "tattletale" tells me.

 

[bearcreek]

I've used TSA locks on all my pistol cases when flying - no issues at all for over two decades. The cases are inside my luggage.

If TSA has an issue and cannot get ahold of me for any reason, then they can still open the case to look at what they want to look at. Otherwise my gun case/luggage will be left at the originating airport if there's some kind of foul up.

"You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks." -- https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

I also use TSA locks to lock my luggage - the ones with a "tattletale" feature that alerts me that TSA has been inside my bag. TSA is supposed to put a written notice when they open your bag for inspection but they don't always do that because the "tattletale" tells me.

You're allowed to use any lock you want. TSA is not permitted to open the case without you present, regardless of what lock is on it. Using non TSA locks helps to keep them honest.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You're allowed to use any lock you want. TSA is not permitted to open the case without you present, regardless of what lock is on it. Using non TSA locks helps to keep them honest.

Do you have a citation to the specific TSA policy that states they cannot open the case without you present?

If TSA cannot get hold of you, for any reason, including foul ups, then your gun isn't going to be loaded aboard the plane when you take off and you won't know until you reach your destination.

 

[GEM]

Story - went to PA from TX with handguns. All packed up in a gun case, which I checked. All done according to the rules. When I got back to TX, the case didn't make it. I went to the agent and said I want them to call the police to report a theft. OMG! It was several handguns. The next day the guns arrived at my house. The airline said that my plane was too heavy so they decided to send the dangerous items - the guns on a different plane later. I kid you not, that was the story.

 

[bearcreek]

Do you have a citation to the specific TSA policy that states they cannot open the case without you present?

It's not a TSA policy. It's federal law. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-1540/section-1540.111#p-1540.111(c)(2)(iv) I've quoted it below. Note the portion in bold. In short, by Federal law, only the passenger (not TSA) may have the key or combination to the lock/locks on a gun case. TSA allows TSA locks, in violation of Federal law, but that doesn't make it a good idea for you to use them.

"A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under § 1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

If TSA cannot get hold of you, for any reason, including foul ups, then your gun isn't going to be loaded aboard the plane when you take off and you won't know until you reach your destination.

Correct.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It's not a TSA policy. It's federal law. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-1540/section-1540.111#p-1540.111(c)(2)(iv) I've quoted it below. Note the portion in bold. In short, by Federal law, only the passenger (not TSA) may have the key or combination to the lock/locks on a gun case. TSA allows TSA locks, in violation of Federal law, but that doesn't make it a good idea for you to use them.

"A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under § 1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

Correct.

You think government lawyers vetted TSA policy regarding TSA locks on gun cases to ensure it complied with federal law before TSA publicly published its policy many years ago? Who do you think is charged with enforcing this particular federal law? It's TSA.

You claimed that TSA cannot open your guncase without you being present. I asked where you found this information.

TSA only has to notify you if they open your gun case. You don't have to be present.

If they cut your locks, like they do on luggage, then your gun case is no longer "locked" and it won't be loaded aboard the plane.

If they can't get hold of you to open the gun case for them, then it won't be loaded aboard the plane.

TSA locks avoid these pitfalls.

 

[bearcreek]

You think government lawyers vetted TSA policy regarding TSA locks on gun cases to ensure it complied with federal law before TSA publicly published its policy many years ago? Who do you think is charged with enforcing this particular federal law? It's TSA.

You claimed that TSA cannot open your guncase without you being present. I asked where you found this information.

TSA only has to notify you if they open your gun case. You don't have to be present.

If they cut your locks, like they do on luggage, then your gun case is no longer "locked" and it won't be loaded aboard the plane.

If they can't get hold of you to open the gun case for them, then it won't be loaded aboard the plane.

TSA locks avoid these pitfalls.

I posted the law. The law very clearly says that only the passenger can have the key or combination to the lock. TSA locks, by definition, do not meet that requirement, since lots of folks have the keys, not just the passenger. You can do with that information what you will. This simple issue has been debated ad nauseam on this and plenty of other firearms forums and I will be putting no more effort into the discussion.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I posted the law. The law very clearly says that only the passenger can have the key or combination to the lock. TSA locks, by definition, do not meet that requirement, since lots of folks have the keys, not just the passenger. You can do with that information what you will. This simple issue has been debated ad nauseam on this and plenty of other firearms forums and I will be putting no more effort into the discussion.

I posted the TSA's instructions to the public, along with the link, in which TSA also cites the same Federal law as you do. I'll re-post the link. See the 4th bullet paragraph under "FIREARMS" and pay particular attention to the last sentence - https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

I also contacted TSA directly years ago and they replied that TSA locks are acceptable.

My job requires extensive travel and I've flown extensively with handguns for over two decades. The TSA locks I use have never been a problem.

 

[danez71]

I posted the TSA's instructions to the public, along with the link, in which TSA also cites the same Federal law as you do. I'll re-post the link. See the 4th bullet paragraph under "FIREARMS" and pay particular attention to the last sentence - https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

I also contacted TSA directly years ago and they replied that TSA locks are acceptable.

My job requires extensive travel and I've flown extensively with handguns for over two decades. The TSA locks I use have never been a problem.

Where in your link does it reference the same federal law?

I searched but it doesn't come up.


A side note: Policy or instructions dont always match law. That doesn't negate the law. Ex. CA had a general policy of not arresting for simple small amounts of Marijuana loooong before they made it legal there. But there were still people getting arrested when the wind blew the wrong direction. Or they could get just a ticket. Kind of a crap shoot for a decade or more.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Where in your link does it reference the same federal law?

I searched but it doesn't come up.


A side note: Policy or instructions dont always match law. That doesn't negate the law. Ex. CA had a general policy of not arresting for simple small amounts of Marijuana loooong before they made it legal there. But there were still people getting arrested when the wind blew the wrong direction. Or they could get just a ticket. Kind of a crap shoot for a decade or more.

"...Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 ... Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations. You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks."

There's statute law, which is the law as it's written, then there's case law, which is how the courts' have defined, interpreted, and applied statute law. Therefore, a simple reading of statute law usually doesn't capture all the nuances involved.

Notice the TSA instruction above uses the word "should" which is a suggestion as opposed to a requirement (i.e. "shall").

Unlike TSA, I doubt the California Attorney General's Office published anything that publicly stated that small amounts of marijuana were permissible prior to legalization.

 

[wayneinFL]

This back and forth highlights an issue you can run into with the TSA. The statute and the TSA's policy are both subject to interpretation. And that happens at the airport, too. Individual TSA employees and supervisors can have conflicting interpretations. I have had one single instance (out of hundreds of flights) in which a TSA supervisor at Atlanta had me replace my Master padlock with a TSA lock.

By the way, I can confirm I have not been present when my luggage, including the case the firearm is locked in, is searched without me present.

 

[RickD427]

From potentially fickle memory the city of Las Vegas is more restrictive than Clark County, but that will want the experience of a Nevadan. FOPA ought permit puttign the luggage in the trunk of your rental car until into a jurisdiction where one could don the thing.

Also from memory, the State of Colorado has some onerous restrictions on magazine size. But, if locked in the trunk in the suitcase, then FOPA would apply once again. This will want more sage advice from Coloradans.

Captain,

Please be careful not to place too much trust in the FOPA. Due to some case law, the FOPA is really nothing more than a "Paper Tiger."

Please refer to the consolidated cases of Torraco, Winstanley, and Weasner that were heard by the Second Circuit. Mr. Torraco and Mr. Weasner were arrested for transporting firearms that were carried in compliance with the FOPA, and Mr. Winstanley was delayed in his travel for carrying a firearm in compliance with the FOPA.

All three gents sued the government agencies involved alleging a violation of their rights under the FOPA. The Second Circuit ruled that the FOPA did not establish a "Right", and therefore there was no basis for the suits. If my memory is correct, at least one of the plaintiffs filed a certiorari request for a Supreme Court review and was denied.

(POSTSCRIPT - Please see Posts 29 and 32. My comment "Please be careful not to place too much trust in the FOPA" was not intended to be legal advice to the OP. Those words were intended as a prefatory introduction to the decision of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in the Toracco, Winstanley and Weasner case.)

 

[danez71]

"...Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 ... Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations. You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks."

There's statute law, which is the law as it's written, then there's case law, which is how the courts' have defined, interpreted, and applied statute law. Therefore, a simple reading of statute law usually doesn't capture all the nuances involved.

Notice the TSA instruction above uses the word "should" which is a suggestion as opposed to a requirement (i.e. "shall").

Unlike TSA, I doubt the California Attorney General's Office published anything that publicly stated that small amounts of marijuana were permissible prior to legalization.

He posted 1540.111 vs your 1540.5 (I think I typed the right)

I get it though.

Sure, Case vs Statute. But case law doesn't negate the actual text of the statue.

Should vs Shall, matters more in statute than a summary instructions. You don't get charged with violating the summary instructions... you get charge against a statute.

"(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

Maybe the crux of it is how they interpret "the key". TSA uses "a key", a master key. Idk.

And you're right... even the statute doesn't actually say you have to be present


In regards to CA, idk if they published anything. But it was on the news many many times with police/govt people saying it. So they were publicly stating their policy was contradicting state law


55 max speed.... But it's often not enforced even when right in front of an officer... until they want to.



I'm not saying you're wrong. You've made some good points that make sense... but I don't trust the govt to always make sense & be consistent.

Ive seen wrong info (as compared to the statute) on the CA DOJ website with their summary instructions about transporting guns.

I chose to follow the actual statue. The websites instructions doesn't carry the same weight as the actual law.

You can use it in a defense as to why you broke the law. But it's not the statute.

Nor is that TSA page.



They sure do make it more complicated than it should be for the people that care.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

He posted 1540.111 vs your 1540.5 (I think I typed the right)

I get it though.

Sure, Case vs Statute. But case law doesn't negate the actual text of the statue.

Should vs Shall, matters more in statute than a summary instructions. You don't get charged with violating the summary instructions... you get charge against a statute.

"(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

Maybe the crux of it is how they interpret "the key". TSA uses "a key", a master key. Idk.

And you're right... even the statute doesn't actually say you have to be present


In regards to CA, idk if they published anything. But it was on the news many many times with police/govt people saying it. So they were publicly stating their policy was contradicting state law


55 max speed.... But it's often not enforced even when right in front of an officer... until they want to.



I'm not saying you're wrong. You've made some good points that make sense... but I don't trust the govt to always make sense & be consistent.

Ive seen wrong info (as compared to the statute) on the CA DOJ website with their summary instructions about transporting guns.

I chose to follow the actual statue. The websites instructions doesn't carry the same weight as the actual law.

You can use it in a defense as to why you broke the law. But it's not the statute.

Nor is that TSA page.



They sure do make it more complicated than it should be for the people that care.

TSA is the agency tasked with enforcing this law and has posted its interpretation and application of it to inform the public.

My experience flying all over the country since 9/11, when TSA locks became a thing, is TSA locks are a non-issue on gun cases exactly as the TSA instructions state. TSA doesn't care.