OK, let me pose the question this way. If an attacker has you pinned against a wall or railing outside a sporting event, is physically stronger than you preventing any effective hand-to-hand technique, and is about to stab you with an edged weapon: do you refrain from drawing and shooting because there are, or may be (you can't tell for sure, the bad guy is in front of you), people behind him?
FMJ 9mm for CCW?
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R.W.Dale
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Sorry but I'm not falling for it. No. If aware of the background I will not shoot into a crowd. However that doesn't mean I'm out of options. I can
A - go to MY knife instead of my gun.
B- draw my gun and use it as a blunt force object against the assailant until I'm not directing fire to the crowd
C- draw weapon and direct fire in a "safer" direction IE upwards
But honestly in your fantasy scenario if things have gotten to that point and the distance has closed that close YOU'VE ALREADY LOST your life shooting into the crowd or not. Because as you know handguns suck at stopping folks. Short of a cns hit the assailant above WILL gut you like a fish
Lastly how can you be prevented from using an effective hand to hand technique and yet at the same time br free to draw and discharge your weapon into the assailant
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OK, now I'm persuaded that everyone's perfect situational awareness and restraint in the face of emminent death makes overpenetration a non-issue. You win.
Sorry for the mild sarcasm, but I think your analysis is unrealistic. Overpenetration is an issue. It may be rare, but it is a possibility. If the law allows it, it seems obvious to me that one should do what one reasonably can to minimize the risk.
Sorry for the mild sarcasm, but I think your analysis is unrealistic. Overpenetration is an issue. It may be rare, but it is a possibility. If the law allows it, it seems obvious to me that one should do what one reasonably can to minimize the risk.
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Interesting. Of course, RWD. says that anything other than a CNS equals death there, so...
Regardless, the point remains. For people in urban areas, there is always a chance that the target will be in front of someone - perhaps someone the victim/shooter did not notice. Overpenetration is an issue.
Regardless, the point remains. For people in urban areas, there is always a chance that the target will be in front of someone - perhaps someone the victim/shooter did not notice. Overpenetration is an issue.
Dave,
A point blank or contact shot or two to the pelivs should prove immediately debilitating, and very likely fatal to the attacker. Firing at that angle also maximizes the tissue the bullet will travel through, and should it exit, the next impact should be the floor.
John
A point blank or contact shot or two to the pelivs should prove immediately debilitating, and very likely fatal to the attacker. Firing at that angle also maximizes the tissue the bullet will travel through, and should it exit, the next impact should be the floor.
John
PRM
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Now this is a funny thread. The 9mm is the most used military cartridge on the globe. Does it work - lots of folks are no longer walking around because of it.
My personal experience with hollow points is that most don't work as well as advertised. Handguns don't have the velocity to do the damage of a high powered rifle. I really don't count on the mythical one shot stop. A handgun should either get you out of a fight or give time to pick up something bigger.
Yep... FBI statistics consistently show that trained police officers under stress average 2 out of 10 rounds actually hitting the target. I would be more worried about the 8 that sped past the intended target, rather than the two that hit it.
I have no problem using FMJ as a carry round.
_________________________________________________________
An old Sheriff attending a social BBQ was approached by a young liberal reporter from the local paper. "Expecting trouble Sheriff, I see your wearing your sidearm,"asked the reporter. The old Sheriff smiled and answered,"Nope, if I was, I would have brought my rifle."
My personal experience with hollow points is that most don't work as well as advertised. Handguns don't have the velocity to do the damage of a high powered rifle. I really don't count on the mythical one shot stop. A handgun should either get you out of a fight or give time to pick up something bigger.
Yep... FBI statistics consistently show that trained police officers under stress average 2 out of 10 rounds actually hitting the target. I would be more worried about the 8 that sped past the intended target, rather than the two that hit it.
I have no problem using FMJ as a carry round.
_________________________________________________________
An old Sheriff attending a social BBQ was approached by a young liberal reporter from the local paper. "Expecting trouble Sheriff, I see your wearing your sidearm,"asked the reporter. The old Sheriff smiled and answered,"Nope, if I was, I would have brought my rifle."
481
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You make an excellent point, John. FMJs in every caliber tend to produce crazy deep penetration.
According to Dr Fackler the .45ACP 230 gr FMJRN @ 869 fps has a total penetration depth of about 65cm or 25.6 inches:
The Schwartz bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 25.7 inches.
The MacPherson bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 30.3 inches.
Similarly, this image (also from Dr Fackler) shows that the 9mm 124 gr FMJRN @ 1189 fps has a total penetration depth of about 71-72cm or 28.3 inches if you "straighten out" that little upward curve that occurs at the end of the FMJ's path:
The Schwartz bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 28.7 inches.
The MacPherson bullet penetration model predicts a penetration depth of 30.9 inches.
Even the relatively low-powered .380ACP 95 gr @ 900fps will penetrate to a depth of 18.7 inches (per the Schwartz model) or 20.1 inches (per the MacPherson model).
Kind of funny. Half the people who say "don't worry about overpenetration" say that the shooter will be spraying so much lead that the added risk of OP is immaterial, while the other half say that shooters will obey the 4 rules of gun safety, maintain perfect situational awareness, and always figure out some way to not ever shoot a bullet whose straight-line trajectory behind the target intersects with someone.
Certaindeaf
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So what? This isn't the lube thread.
seeker_two
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Depends....have you greased the right palms?....
481
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Yes.
The Schwartz model has a closed-form solution for doing that- there is none that I know of for the MacPherson model, but then again, I've not had the time to play with the math to see if there is a viable arrangement to those equations.
Using the Schwartz model, the same 9mm 124 gr FMJ @ 1189 fps as above would exit the end of a 12" long block of gelatin at 501.7 fps, the same .45ACP 230 gr FMJ @ 869 fps above would exit the end of a 12" long block at 418.9 fps, and the same .380 95 gr FMJ @ 900 fps above would exit 12" of gelatin at 291.2 fps.
Just for giggles and grins, a .45ACP 230 gr JHP @ 850 fps that retains all of its weight and expands to 0.70" would exit a 12" long block at just 69.6 fps.
allaroundhunter
Member
If I know there is a crowd behind my attacker then my gun is not the first defensive weapon I will go to in 99% of situations, this being one of them. It is rare that purely physical strength can stop hand to hand techniques if you have received proper instruction, there is almost always a way to create space between yourself and an attacker. If I am ever in a close proximity fight such as that I want to use my hands and/or my knife first to create distance before drawing my firearm. And once a knife comes out, the fight will usually end before my gun comes into play, whether the assailant gives up, is incapacitated, or you are incapacitated.
If the attacker is that strong then he very well can take that weapon even if you are only drawing it into a retention position. But, if he is so strong that I cannot use hand to hand techniques, then how am I supposed to draw?...
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seeker_two
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I think we're forgetting the factor of time....in a situation like this, are we really going to have enough time to sort through your utility belt to find the right Bat-gadget for the fight?
Sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt the best you can....
Sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt the best you can....
MagnunJoe
Member
HD, hollow point
CC, hollow point
Car carry, 9mm 124gr FMJ so it can penetrate a car & do some damage.
CC, hollow point
Car carry, 9mm 124gr FMJ so it can penetrate a car & do some damage.
Handguns have frequently been more "badges of rank" than effective weapons, so just because a sidearm in x caliber has been issued, says nothing about its effectiveness. .32 ACP was a common European caliber for years.
ApacheCoTodd
member
How much? Not at all.
To cut to the chase OP asks:
""I know there are concerns of over penetration with FMJ. How much should I be concerned with carrying the good ole fashion FMJ until ammo stocks go back up? And I can find a better suited ammo for CCW?""
Until and if...? Not at all concerned. Then, find out if your firearm/magazine combination will tolerate your selected non FMJ choice and move on from there as far as "better suited ammo" is concerned.
To cut to the chase OP asks:
""I know there are concerns of over penetration with FMJ. How much should I be concerned with carrying the good ole fashion FMJ until ammo stocks go back up? And I can find a better suited ammo for CCW?""
Until and if...? Not at all concerned. Then, find out if your firearm/magazine combination will tolerate your selected non FMJ choice and move on from there as far as "better suited ammo" is concerned.
Certaindeaf
member
The Buffalo Bore .380 gets over 40" of penetration in calibrated gelatin. I think a lot of the statements of "the 9mm gets over X.. 28..".. of penetration" is because they ran out of gel. Of course it gets over that.
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