FMJ's for hunting?

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zdc1775 said:
I don't know about all states but it is my understanding that here they are against the law to even have in your possession while hunting game animals.
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What he said ^^^..... Not to mention it's just plain lacking in ethics. I've heard some misinformed people as of late but to argure that point takes the here's your sign award for the day.
 
Not to mention it's just plain lacking in ethics. I've heard some misinformed people as of late but to argure that point takes the here's your sign award for the day.
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And that's a common enough way of thinking.

Yet, Caribou does so, and has done so (legally) in order to bring home the food he and his family survive on for over a quarter century -- undoubtedly racking up more game taken than any of the rest of us who hunt for less pressing reasons. Subsistence hunters tend not to do ANYTHING that wastes shots, or loses game.

So, it would seem, your ethics applies to your own abilities, needs, and beliefs ... but not HIS.

'Course, I guess you've got to be a pretty darned good hunter to survive on your skills, so maybe he's just on a different level from the average hunter. Perhaps it is simply that the shots he has to (or chooses to) take are shots he has perfect faith that he will make. If shot placement is not the (or even a) variable for you, then FMJ would of course work just fine.
 
Sam 1911 The far north hunters also use what by most any standard are well underpowerd cartidge to take polarbear too Then they let there dogs run it to death. If that caribou was shot with a fmj runs for a half mile before giveing up is that ok too. Ethical?? Ain't ethical in any way but being native they can do that. I could kill deer with a 22lr . That to has been done by poachers for decades too. Just because it can be done that makes it allright for you?
 
Any bullet will work with a head shot. I like lung or shoulder myself. Bigger target.

In 7.62x39 (two SKSs) I like Wolf 154 soft point. It's some good stuff, actually espands and more importantly, in my guns, shoots a good inch tighter at 100 yards. It shoots to POA with FMJ, too. The Wolf is cheap, but effective. If i don't have Wolf, I can handload for the guns, but prefer not to.
 
As a kid growing up in WV i killed a lot of deer using milsurp rifles and FMJ milsurp ammo. Put the bullet in the right place and the animal dies quickly. i still use military 5.56mm M193 ammo on wild hogs. Hogs are not game animals in OK: i do not use that ammo on deer.

If you ever saw what that little 55 grain FMJ bullet does to the lungs of a big hog it might change your mind about that particular FMJ bullet. It does not matter much what a game animal is shot with. What matters is where it is shot. Put a someones touted magic bullet in the guts of a big game animal and it will run off and die a painful death. Bullet placement is everything.
 
Sam 1911 The far north hunters also use what by most any standard are well underpowerd cartidge to take polarbear too Then they let there dogs run it to death. If that caribou was shot with a fmj runs for a half mile before giveing up is that ok too. Ethical?? Ain't ethical in any way but being native they can do that. I could kill deer with a 22lr . That to has been done by poachers for decades too. Just because it can be done that makes it allright for you?
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You need to watch some of caribou's videos and read his posts, you seem woefully uneducated on the subject.
 
I have no doubt that a really good shot can kill game with most anything. But, for most of us who don't always make perfect shots a FMJ will be a disadvantage over a premium hunting bullet.
 
Look: With a proper hit, an FMJ will suffice. But define proper hit. Next: My ideal is the proverbial DRT. I like to pull trigger, hear the whop, and see Bambi fold up and quit, Right There. I'm too lazy to like tracking, myownself, nor do I have a dog to help.

Thing is, I keep reading here that a lot of folks don't want to take a neck shot on Bambi because he might move his head around. Okay, fine; not my business. But that then gets to a heart/lung shot. If you're a tad low and an inch back of the heart, Bambi's not going to be sitting there and waiting for you to do the field-dressing.

That gets back to shot placement. With a hunting bullet, there could well be enough tissue damage that Bambi will bleed out fairly soon. With an FMJ, maybe not--and you done went and wasted a deer that jumped the fence into the next pasture where you can't go. Ever heard that story before? I have.

So Caribou's deal works for him since he doesn't have to deal with Alabama or East Texas forests or river-bottom jungles along an Appalachicola River and ten- or twenty-yard visibility. From his photos, proper shot placement is not a problem, either.

Add to all this that a guy who does subsistence hunting messes with critters and the shooting thereof a lot more than those of us who spend a few days and have a two- or three-deer limit. The experience factor, if you will.

So for most hunting in the Lower 48, the odds favor hunting bullets over FMJ. If you go with the odds, you're the Vegas casino, not the sucker with the dice in his hand.
 
In the absolute best case, an FMJ will perform as well as a bullet designed for hunting. Worst case it fails to yaw, yaws too soon, veers off course when it does yaw and horribly wounds an animal that you will never find. That is a no brainier choice for me. I will spend the extra nickle on a soft point, best nickle I'll ever spend when my hunt is on the line.
 
It is not even really that expensive, you can get a respectable rifle/scope combo for $300 new and a box of core-lokts for $17 and Vital shocks are about $14 if those are too expensive for you.
 
If a person can't aford to shot basic level hunting ammo , they should not hunt.
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Says you. i've worked and saved all my life and can afford anything within reason. i prefer to kill hogs, a non-game animal, using M193 5.56mm FMJ ammo because it works well for me. Over 90 percent of my wild hogs bang flop. i've not lost a hog in many years.

IME no ammo works well when folks rush their shots and shoot animals in the guts. Every year i track and recover 10-15 deer and five or six elk that hunters have wounded. Very few hunters will admit to shooting an animal in the guts. 80 percent of the hunters who ask me to track for them claim to have "double lunged" the animal: Over 80 percent of the animals i recover for are gutshot. One guy initially stated the trophy buck i found was not his: His was not shot in the guts.
 
Sam 1911 The far north hunters also use what by most any standard are well underpowerd cartidge to take polarbear too Then they let there dogs run it to death. If that caribou was shot with a fmj runs for a half mile before giveing up is that ok too. Ethical?? Ain't ethical in any way but being native they can do that.
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Unless you have hunted with Caribou, insinuating that he hunts in this manner is insulting. I'm not saying what you talk about doesn't happen, but to apply that standard to all Northern hunters is unfair, inaccurate, and insulting to the fullest. I'm sure I can find unethical hunting/poaching situations in NC as well, but I'm sure you'd take offense to the insinuation that poaching is the common method of collecting game there. Ethics, though vitally important to our sport, are somewhat fluid. What may be unethical for you to attempt may be thoroughly within another's capabilities. From what I've read of Caribou's experiences, i have no reason to think he's the sort of person who would simply shrug off wounded animals as part of the game, or the type of person who would willingly let an animal suffer needlessly. To take his word, then compare it to the style of "hunting" you described as being commonplace there, isn't fair, and imo, isn't remotely accurate. To further say that he "shouldn't hunt" because he successfully uses fmj ammo year in and year out, borders on absurd. The proof they say, is in the pudding...or venison, or mutton, or whatever it was he shot last.
 
The thing about it is, on a forum like this you will get some young new hunter thinking that he should use full metal jackets for big game when that is not the best choice for most.
 
In my college days I used to shoot coyotes for extra money. I was flat broke so I used a bolt action .223 and Mil Surp ball ammo that I could buy for about $2.00 per 20. It was 55 gr stuff and I've got to tell you it would flat mess up a coyote sometimes. And sometimes it would pin hole them but if you hit them in the boiler room they would die either way. The wound depend on whether or not the bullet hit anything that would upset it, like a bone.

Sure FMJ ammo will kill stuff no doubt about it. As caribou mentioned it's all about shot placement.

Here is the difference between a solid used for African DG hunting and a military style FMJ bullet however. A spitzer shaped miltary style FMJ is pointy nosed and has it weight distribution mostly in the back of the bullet. Also known as an AFT center of gravity (CG).

This causes the bullet to be less stable upon terminal delivery, I.E. the heaviest part of the bullet the back, wants to move forward upon impact which will cause what we refer to as tumbling. This tumbling affect causes sever tissue disruption and energy transference inside the body with violent terminal effect on organs and tissue. It also causes bullets to stray form their original line of penetration. Causing non straight line penetration in many cases.

A solid bullet designed for DG hunting will have a very even weight distribution throughout it's length with the bias towards a forward CG it does this by having a short radius round nose or flat nosed profile. These bullets tend to penetrate in a more predictable straight line fashion with the flat nosed bullets proving to be the most reliable straight line penetrators.

Of course either can be upset and do strange things after impact due to multiple variables but that is the theory of solid bullet construction and shape.

Whether by design or fluke spitzer style FMJ's are better suited for light boned, light skinned animals like bears, caribou and moose. Either however have been pressed into service for both jobs.

Here is a perfect example. A 175 gr 7MM round nosed solid will reliably penetrate straight to the brain on a frontal shot on a bull elephant. A Military 7.62MM FMJ NATO Ball round will not. Either will reliably kill an elephant with a side brain shot as the required straight line penetration drops from 3 to 4 feet down to a matter of 5 or 6 inches.

Obvious S.D. differences aside it's mainly about bullet shape in this case as both are very similar in construction.
 
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I learned this the hard way when I was young and dumb. I thought the idea that FMJ wouldn't kill as being silly or something just to sell more expensive bullets.
I mean, if they can kill people just fine, why not animals right? Wrong. They might be fine for a professional hunter like Caribou making 400 yard head shots, but that isn't the average hunter.
I remember that sick feeling when I know I hit a deer with 762x39 using the Wolf FMJ and it running off like nothing touched it. I am sure it killed the deer, but I never found it and most likely the coyotes got it. I shot a rabbit one time as well with 762x54r FMJ, and the rabbit took off running so I assumed I missed. 2 hours later running the brush hog, I saw a rabbit laying in the brush with a 30 cal hole punched through the middle of it. It died, but not right away, a good .22lr hp drops rabbits quicker than that did.

Ever since I have been using soft points for all hunting, and haven't lost another animal. Nothing worse IMHO than losing an animal that is going to just go off and die wasted.
 
Long ago in the American Rifleman (I believe), an African PH used a .308 and 150gr ball to shoot everything that he normally hunted for one season. His results were impressive with no game lost or suffering.
 
They might be fine for a professional hunter like Caribou making 400 yard head shots, but that isn't the average hunter.
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SMS,

That is a pretty big assumption. He's not making exclusively head shots at 400 yards. Nor is he even claiming to make primarily head shots at any range. He clearly stated that he's killing animals with ball FMJ with shots to the vitals without any undue issues.

Now back to OP it is legal to use FMJ on hogs in his area. Will they work on hogs? Of course they will, are there better choices? Yes there are.

Pretty simple answer to a pretty simple question really. Various game departments have been culling big game including elephants with standard issue .308 Ball ammo for years and have successfully killed thousands and thousands of head of big game with it.

It what is available it's what they have and it can obviously be pressed into service with great success. Since it's illegal to use on most any game animal almost everywhere in the country it's kind of mute point anyway. For the average hunter there are far better choices for general sport hunting than FMJ military style bullets.
 
Heres a vid Ive posted here before, but for example; Useing my M-39 and 7.62X54R Czeck Light ball FMJ. The first is a 'Drop Dead" head shot to the brain, a "viatal", the second to the Heart, another 'vital' as they were moveing away and I wanted to be sure of a quick death for the fellow, but not a stray hit on his running partner, and as soon as he went down, I had a clear and easy shot at the third Caribou's head, and , again, placement to the 'vital' had the deed done.

If I shoot a Caribou or any other animal, and it runs off, I shoot again, and I find that almost 100% of the time, it is because I did Not hit it in a vital with the first shot, as surely as we all miss, even now and then. No bullet twice the size would have helped.

Indeed, I do not have much in the way when Im hunting, except for the tree stands of stunted Spruce and willows along creeks and rivers, there only wide open places and little cover for Game or Hunter. Things here can be at distance and moveing away......and we are not allowed to"run down' animals, so I cover that space with a high powerd rifle. If its a long shot, I move to the larger target of Heart/Lungs.
th_HeadshotHeartshotHeadshot.jpg

Youll notice, as I have many times over, that the second Caribou, with a .30 cal hole through his heart died as quickly as with any soft point Ive shot a Caribou in the heart with.

Just one example I can share, but Ive done this shot kind of heart many times, witha wide variety of calibers and ammo over the years, and Ive sen no difference with proper placemnt of any projectile.



I may be useing FMJ, but the difference that sent me to their use wasnt just economy, but the extra ammount of shells let me plink and practise to adnauseum and deafness. The Czeck bullets were and are more consistant and accurate than the Barnul, the Brown Bear and the Winchester I have tryed. I have used case apon case , and shooting Bunnies in the head is quite the fun, but maybe the toughest, simply because of all the willows that send a good shot off, and any 'Miss' is not in the viatals.......Bunnies in the Willows are shotgun work.

My point is that I preferr accurate ammo to any advantage that a soft point might offer, simply because the advantage is lost when the 'vitals' are missed.

I advocate "Placement, placement, placement" and the FMJ's I use do the job as well as I could ever ask, busting bones, disrupting the Central nervous system, destroying arteries, and makeing holes that lead to a quick death.
I know that a properly placed bullet passing through a 'Vital', wether a soft point, a cast lead or a FMJ is going to kill that animal, and that a misplaced bullet wont.

The Bullet is the weapon, the rest is the 'delivery', and you must deliver that weapon to the proper spot for a quick Death.

For sucess, you need the 3 pillers of accuray; Good, soild shooting skills. A good , solid, accurate rifle, and good, consitant ammo.

Since Placement is everything, Accuracy with penetration trumps all.
 
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There is no doubt in my mind that a FMJ can kill it most certainly can, and as I believe someone previously said many Dangerous game animal loads are solids and not expanding... so their is a place for them. As for the typical hunter hunting Elk, Deer, or hogs a solid is not a requirement and in many cases are not legal. Now if I was in the Arctic north hunting a polar bear I would use a .375 H&H Mag with a solid, or on the African plains. (So in reallity in my previous post I can't say I would "never" use FMJ's, but for the intention of going out and hunting my typical Texas deer, it is very unlikley):)
 
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