FMJ's for hunting?

[CountryUgly]

And that's a common enough way of thinking.

Yet, Caribou does so, and has done so (legally) in order to bring home the food he and his family survive on for over a quarter century -- undoubtedly racking up more game taken than any of the rest of us who hunt for less pressing reasons. Subsistence hunters tend not to do ANYTHING that wastes shots, or loses game.

So, it would seem, your ethics applies to your own abilities, needs, and beliefs ... but not HIS.

'Course, I guess you've got to be a pretty darned good hunter to survive on your skills, so maybe he's just on a different level from the average hunter. Perhaps it is simply that the shots he has to (or chooses to) take are shots he has perfect faith that he will make. If shot placement is not the (or even a) variable for you, then FMJ would of course work just fine.

Point taken... You are right it is against "my ethics" and yes a double lung hit will get the job done eventually. Shot placement has never been an issue for me but personally I'd rather have a round that kills as quickly as possible. As far as him being a cut above the rest of us because of his lifestyle..you're probably right and I'm not the one to question his way of life cause I just don't know. What I do know is a 7.62x39 fmj won't kill a 120lb doe very quickly even with two very well placed shots but the same round in a 154gr soft point has dropped more than one DRT with a single well placed round. That is what I base my opinions on as far as the FMJ for hunting (at least where and what I hunt) is concerned. Now if I'm in say Africa staring down a Cape Buffalo I'm sure I'd rather have a FMJ instead of something that opens up quickly.

 

[AABEN]

I have read and heard about people hunting with FMJ steel core ammo.I have never used them for hunting when I use to hunt but I got into a little argument at Wal-Mart with a younger guy who kept insisting that since the Army uses them to kill people they are the best for killing game.After trying to explain to him about different types of bullet's and expansion ect.I finally gave up.Has anyone had a run in with today's misinformed youth?I haven't hunted in yrs. but is there a law against using them for hunting?

I do not know who told you that but he is no hunter!! You want the bullet to expand as it goes in so you get a good shock to it and a good blood hole. You want a good kill use bullets made for hunting!! Thee are made by all bullet makers. I use Serra's.

 

[dprice3844444]

fmj's have been killing folkd since the early 1900's and will continue to kill them for the next hundred or so years.what makes game any different

 

[Old krow]

I disagree with the premiss of the OP in that hunters should use them because the military does. The military also uses air support, artillery, and suppressive fire to augment their rounds.

It was the Hague and not the Geneva Convention as previously noted. yes, the US does use JHP in war.

Caribou, if you can make a clean kill with FMJs, good for you. "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Personally I feel that it would not be ethical for ME to use FMJs, aside from being illegal. I practice with mostly JHPs so I hunt with them. Everything around here is fairly thin skinned and the ammo that I load is either JHP or soft points. And it's illegal.

The idea that we should do anything as hunters simply because the military does it is a bit far fetched. That is definitely NOT the reason to use them.

 

[Kachok]

I comes down to this, can a FMJ harvest a game animal...sure, is it better then a quality SP,HP or poly tip designed for the task HELL NO. I have some FMJs in my survival stash that I would use in a pinch for hunting, but never in a million years use them for hunting while I have my SGKs, BTs, and SSTs that give me top notch accuracy and super quick kills 100% of the time. I have never hunted with FMJs but I have seen other people do it, never been impressed with their results.

 

[rugerman]

In alabama it is against the law "centerfire mushrooming ammo". Several years ago we had a guy hunting with us that has just got a SKS and decided to go deer hunting with it, shot a deer at about 70 yards with a fmj we tracked that deer for a long time finally caught up to it and had to shoot it with my pistol to finish it off. The shot should have been lethal but with a fmj it left 2 small holes (one in and one out) left very little blood, all I can figure is that the lack of expansion and the small holes allowed the deer to go a long way without bleeding out or his lungs deflating. I'm guessing because the 44 mag destroyed most of the evidence since I hit it close to the place.

 

[MCgunner]

the US does use JHP in war.

The DO? What caliber?

 

[Kachok]

The DO? What caliber?

7.62x51 sniper ammunition is 175gr SMK which is a non-expanding HP, it does however have a nasty yaw and fragmentation.
It is HP only for aero ballance purposes.

 

[Grumulkin]

Yes, they do. That would be Sierra MatchKings for 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester Magnum sniper loads.

Ya'll answer some questions for me:

1. Why would an "all lead" projectile be acceptable for hunting and an FMJ not be?

2. Why are FMJ or solid bullets REQUIRED for hunting Elephant and acceptable for hunting things like Rhino and Cape Buffalo? If you're not familiar with these animals they are a bit bigger, more tenacious of life and more dangerous than your usual deer or coyote.

3. When might one use a solid bullet to kill a cow?

4. Should the circumstances such as location, cartridge, animal type, etc. have any bearing on whether or not you choose a solid (assuming laws don't prohibit their use)?

5. Does an arrow expand?

 

[Art Eatman]

Grumulkin, solids are used on African dangerous game to break bone and keep the animal from killing the hunter. Hard for Mr. Four-legs to charge when the shoulders are ruined, e.g.

If you're off an inch or two from the proper point of impact and are using a military-style bullet, the deer or elk can die--but a long way from where it was shot and maybe not be found by the hunter. Hunting bullets generally do better for fast bleed-out in such a situation than do FMJ. Better blood trail, among other positive effects.

 

[Grumulkin]

Yes, it's kind of interesting that solids are used on dangerous game to break bone and stop them and yet apparently on a less challenging animal, if you shoot it with a solid, it will get away. Actually, this is the way it is:

1. A solid is can be used for two reasons. One would be for penetration. In the case of the Elephant with a huge amount of tissue to penetrate, it's entirely possible that that an expanding bullet wouldn't make it to a vital organ to kill the animal. A solid may also be used to minimize meat or hide damage.

2. It is true that shot placement must be more precise with a solid. A solid wouldn't be the best choice if you're the kind of shooter satisfied with "minute of deer" or "all shots in an 8 inch pie plate at 100 yards."

3. An arrow doesn't expand and neither does an all lead bullet. It's pretty ludicrous to maintain that FMJ bullets are bad while at the same time trying to justify the use of arrows and solid nonexpanding lead projectiles.

4. And, by the way, I'm not on the solids/FMJs for everything band wagon. There is no doubt that a .224 caliber bullet that expands to .350 inches is going to produce more shock and produce a bigger wound channel and cause death sooner providing you hit the animal in the lung than a nonexpanding .224 caliber projectile. For head shots either type of bullet will work equally well. If you place shots with precision an FMJ/solid should work well for you but if your talents or equipment don't allow such precision, you're better off with an expanding bullet.



A Black Back Jackal taken in South Africa with a 375 H&H Magnum using a Hornady 300 gr. FMJ bullet. Using an expanding bullets would have resulted in a rather large unsightly hole.



An African Wildcat takin with an FMJ bullet out of a 375 H&H Magnum.



The guy that shot this Steenbok with a 340 Weatherby Magnum had his heart in the right place. He read the words "solid copper" on the box of Barnes XLC bullets and thought they were solids. They are solid copper but certainly expand well. The Steenbok is the about the size of a large dog.

 

[ZeroJunk]

It's pretty ludicrous to maintain that FMJ bullets are bad while at the same time trying to justify the use of arrows

I don't think anybody would try to justify using field points over broadheads.

Might be a better analogy.

 

[Kachok]

I don't think anybody would try to justify using field points over broadheads.

Might be a better analogy.

LOL +1
Broadheads can kill pretty darn quick, and fixed broad heads don't have catastrophic failures like FMJs can. I have seen a FMJ do a hard 70 degree turn 2" in, that would very likely take you completely out of the vitals, though these freakishly hard turns are less common with larger caliber FMJs (.30cal and up)

 

[Grumulkin]

Well, FMJs can "kill pretty darn quick" as well so if pretty darn quick is acceptable then so should FMJs and if not, you should stop using arrows. The African Wildcat above was DRT and the Jackal went probably 15 feet which I consider pretty darn quick.

As for the hard right 70 degree turn in 2"; I'll have to see that to believe it. It apparently hasn't been a big problem for Elephant hunters. In addition, given that the chest wall of a deer is not that thick, it should not be a problem though with a shoulder shot it might be. But as I said previously, if you or your equipment isn't capable of precise bullet placement, then you probably shouldn't be using FMJs/solids.

Oh, and the field points vs broad head question; you're right broadheads are going to create a bigger wound but I hope you don't think a field or target point couldn't be lethal.

 

[Kachok]

OK big difference in the construction of a monolithic big game solid and a mil-surp fmj. The non-expanding bullets used for big game are fore end heavy so they don't yaw. They will track streight and pass through the vitals even on off angle shots striking heavy bone. Most mil-surp style FMJs are base heavy and designed to yaw on impact, totally different terminal performance, I cannot re post the picture here, but you can see the results on brass fetcher for yourself, that kind of behavior is not unusual for high speed small caliber spritzers. And that was on bare gelatin, imagine what could happen striking bone.

 

[alsaqr]

Many game animals are lost because the hunter does not follow up his shot. Several years ago i had stopped to chat with a couple elk hunters i did not know. As we were talking a small herd of elk came over the hill lead by a big bull.

One of those hunters shot the bull behind the shoulder with his 7mm Remington magnum. i saw dust fly off the animal where the bullet hit. The elk took off at high speed. Both hunters claimed it was a clean miss and started to their truck. Told the hunters the elk was hit. The shooter claimed his bullet would have dropped the elk in its tracks had the animal been hit. Asked them if i could track their elk. The driver laughed loudly and drove off.

Found a few drops of blood where the elk had been standing. Tracked the scant blood trail for well over an hour before finding the elk about one kilometer from where it was hit. The bullet clipped the right lung and the animal bled to death internally. The bullet did exit, leaving a hole about the size of a lead pencil.

The hunters were at the game checking station when i checked their animal in. Both were totally livid. i might have gotten whipped except for the two big guys who helped me retrieve that elk.

 

[Robert]

Ok for those who missed it H&Hhunter breaks it down below.

In my college days I used to shoot coyotes for extra money. I was flat broke so I used a bolt action .223 and Mil Surp ball ammo that I could buy for about $2.00 per 20. It was 55 gr stuff and I've got to tell you it would flat mess up a coyote sometimes. And sometimes it would pin hole them but if you hit them in the boiler room they would die either way. The wound depend on whether or not the bullet hit anything that would upset it, like a bone.

Sure FMJ ammo will kill stuff no doubt about it. As caribou mentioned it's all about shot placement.

Here is the difference between a solid used for African DG hunting and a military style FMJ bullet however. A spitzer shaped miltary style FMJ is pointy nosed and has it weight distribution mostly in the back of the bullet. Also known as an AFT center of gravity (CG).

This causes the bullet to be less stable upon terminal delivery, I.E. the heaviest part of the bullet the back, wants to move forward upon impact which will cause what we refer to as tumbling. This tumbling affect causes sever tissue disruption and energy transference inside the body with violent terminal effect on organs and tissue. It also causes bullets to stray form their original line of penetration. Causing non straight line penetration in many cases.

A solid bullet designed for DG hunting will have a very even weight distribution throughout it's length with the bias towards a forward CG it does this by having a short radius round nose or flat nosed profile. These bullets tend to penetrate in a more predictable straight line fashion with the flat nosed bullets proving to be the most reliable straight line penetrators.

Of course either can be upset and do strange things after impact due to multiple variables but that is the theory of solid bullet construction and shape.

Whether by design or fluke spitzer style FMJ's are better suited for light boned, light skinned animals like bears, caribou and moose. Either however have been pressed into service for both jobs.

Here is a perfect example. A 175 gr 7MM round nosed solid will reliably penetrate straight to the brain on a frontal shot on a bull elephant. A Military 7.62MM FMJ NATO Ball round will not. Either will reliably kill an elephant with a side brain shot as the required straight line penetration drops from 3 to 4 feet down to a matter of 5 or 6 inches.

Obvious S.D. differences aside it's mainly about bullet shape in this case as both are very similar in construction.