For all who use a laser

[SkyGuy]

Not all peripheral vision skills are lost under stress. If that were true, the defenders direct vision would only be able to see something as small as a laser dot which we know to be incorrect. With certain threat focused skills taught in the classes, the range of peripheral vision is within 2-4 inches of line of sight, well within the range of tunnel vision should it ocurr under stress.

That is scientifically inaccurate and a myth. Ask any eye doctor.

Learn this: It is not possible to consciously see simultaneously with both peripheral vision and central/tunnel vision. You mistake 'alternating' the two separate 'seeing' systems with each other and believe that is peripheral vision sighting. But in fact, it is either one or the other.
We see objects by using central vision, we navigate (subconsciously) by using peripheral vision....our visual outer oval.

Imagine walking through a low cave or an attic. You are focused ahead looking for danger or an object. You hit your head on a rafter or a rock above your head. That happens because you are using central vision and your peripheral vision has been suppressed.

When stress forces a threat focus...the peripheral vision system goes blind. Period! It cannot work in conjunction with threat focused central/tunnel vision.

You cannot 'will' peripheral vision. You cannot use peripheral vision to aim, you must use central vision to aim. You can point shoot at a target all you like, from hip, chest, below line of sight, etc., but good hits will be a result of muscle memory/habit/practice/trial and error....not peripheral vision acuity.

This is a detailed subject, but the bottom line is that peripheral vision is, indeed, a rather weak point shooting asset or training aid.

People should learn to silhouette or slide aim and definitely get a laser sight because of all the variables of a self defense encounter.
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[crofrog]

Man, sky guy sure throws around a whole bunch of absolutes with no research to back it up.

Instead of telling us to ask an eye doctor why don't you post a peer-reviews study from one here.

 

[SkyGuy]

Man, sky guy sure throws around a whole bunch of absolutes with no research to back it up.

I posted facts. I stand by those facts.

You're just a kid looking for someone else to do your homework.
It's 'your' job to research the subject....or believe the myth. Whatever.
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[brownie0486]

Tunnel vision is not an absolute pin point of direct vision. You are still capable of peripheral vision, though the range is narrowed considerbly.

If you are looking at the threat and using a laser, do you only see the pinpoint spot the dot makes? No, you don't, you see much more than that of the threat.

Would you be able to see his hands go up in surrender while you are looking at the dot? Yes, you would. Would you see him start to stumble and fall after being shot with the focus on the laser dot? Yes, you would. All of which is a range of peripheral vision, perhaps a narrowed range, but still peripheral vision.

In your own statements, you disprove that one does not retain some peripheral range, though narrowed because if you were right, your direct vision on the laser would not alow you to see 3-4 inches of either side of the dot superimposed, or his throwing his hands up even a few feet from the direct vision on that dot.

Peripheral is retained to some degree, and that peripheral can be utilized to good advantage.

In yet another reverse example of the same subject, those trained on front sight press with the direct vision on the front sight are still able to superimpose that sight onto the COM of a BG. They can find COM because their peripheral vision allows them to see the upper body of the threat in their peripheral vision.

The only way you would be able to use front sight press would be if you could see peripherally where to place the COM shot, and that has been ocurring for generations of shooters under stresses of SD and armed combat.

If your own physical condition and eye problems are such that it precludes your having access to some peripheral vision, I suggest you stay with your preferred "tool" as you may not be capable of the same thing. I would still profer that your own sight still sees more than that tiny little dot of the laser superimposed on an object. That you can look at the laser dot and still determine how much mass the object has, and then be able to place the dot of that laser into the center of that object. Thereby demonstrating that your peripheral vision is still being used while you are staring at the dot, elsewise you would not be able to see COM to begin with.

Though I'm an educated man I can't speak intelligently about your personal physical limitations. This tact on the use of a lack of peripheral vision you use is disproved by front sight press skills as stated above and other ways, even by demonstrating to others that when they are focused on the dot on the threat, they still see more than just that one focal point of direct focus which of course, demonstrates to anyone who wants to actually try it, their peripheral skills are not diminished enough not to be able to determine the mass of the threat and find COM.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

The following are excerpts from a paper titled "Vision and Shooting" by Edward C. Godnig, O.D., FCOVD, who is a 1976 graduate of the New England College of Optometry, Boston, Massachusetts.

"Above and beyond the basic visual functions that are operational at various lighting conditions, there are specific visual changes that occur when a shooter is threatened by a dangerous situation. The Body Alarm Reaction (BAR) is the body’s response to an unexpected and sudden change in the environment, most commonly initiated during the early stages of a life threatening attack. The BAR is often associated with combat or violent encounters. The most immediate visual change in response to the BAR is that the eye focusing system (accommodation) loses it ability to maintain clear focus on targets at close distances. It is not possible during the first few seconds after entering into the BAR to clearly focus upon the front sights of a gun. A shooter’s visual focusing and attention is drawn to focus toward far distant viewing, toward infinity. This focusing change toward far distant focus is a direct result of the change from parasympathetic nervous system control to sympathetic nervous system control. This shift in the autonomic nervous system balance is responsible for changing how the crystalline lens inside the eye changes it shape and optical power. During the immediate stages of the BAR, the lens becomes less convex in shape and this results in an optical shift of focus resulting in clear focus only while viewing distant targets."

"It is important to remember that the sympathetic nervous system can exert its neural messengers either in a focal manner (through secretion of noradrenalin or norepinephrine) at local end organs (as is the case at the ciliary muscle of the eye’s focusing system), or through releasing noradrenalin or norepinephrine directly into the bloodstream to prepare the body for combat.

"It is worthwhile to note that during the BAR there are a series of other biochemical and hormonal changes that are activated throughout the body. One example is that the adrenal glands secrete a group of hormones called glucocorticoids. Cortisol is the most prevalent of these hormones. Cortisol increases blood sugar levels to contribute energy for muscle function. Research has also correlated decreased learning and decreased memory function, as well as attention anomalies with increased cortisol levels in the body. These changes in response to cortisol levels increasing during the BAR help explain, in part, why visual memory and visual attention is narrowed during the BAR. These types of physiological changes that accompany the BAR begin to explain the perceptual changes called “tunnel vision” and “perceptual narrowing”. Humans have an innate tendency to narrow attention upon a threat during extreme stress. It can be argued that learning how to expand peripheral awareness of space can minimize the effects of “tunnel vision” during the BAR. Other strategies to overcome the tunneling effects of perceptual narrowing will be outlined in the visual training section of this bulletin."

"From a behavioral perspective, Dr. A. M. Skeffington, the father of behavioral optometry, theorized that during stress, the human ability to center on a task and identify and maintain meaningful awareness on a specific target is severely hampered. BAR type of stress causes a decline in your ability to derive meaning from your visual memory image due to a perceptual narrowing that accompanies the breakdown of optimal human performance. His theory postulated in the 1940s has gained strength and understanding during the last half century as much current neurological and psychological research has proven the bulk of his intuitive understanding of human responses to stress."

"Other behavioral and performance changes have been reported to be associated with “perceptual narrowing”. The theory of perceptual narrowing suggests that as the level of demand increases on a central, straight ahead target, there will be a corresponding decrease in the visual area surrounding the central area from which peripheral information can be extracted. Increased arousal causes increased narrowing of the attentional focus, with a progressive elimination of input from the more peripheral aspects of the visual field. Another way of viewing “tunnel vision” is that as stress increases, there is a reduction of cues used to regulate performance. When stress levels are further increased, there is a further restriction in the range of visual cues used to sample visual space. Under stress, the useful field of view shrinks, and the amount of processing of visual information is narrowed."

"Contemporary visual research describes a parallel, dual processing visual system that is useful to further understand the complex nature of how visual information travels from the retina to the brain. One pathway (M-pathway) is more sensitive to coarse visual forms and images that move quickly. The other pathway (P-pathway) is more sensitive to fine spatial details of forms that are stationary or move at very slow rates.

"It appears that the P-pathway processing visual information that is dominated by central, detailed labeling of information, whereas the M-pathway processes information dominated by peripheral vision awareness of movement, orientation and location of visual images. It may be that these pathways work in a synchronous manner to efficiently process visual information. Under high stress there seems to be an imbalance between the P and M pathways such that one pathway overrides the other. “Tunnel vision” appears to be related to P-pathway dominance and M-pathway inhibition during the BAR."

" The following visual skills are important for shooter speed and accuracy of aim;


A. Visual acuity: Both static (discerning detail of a stationary target) and dynamic visual acuity (discerning detail of a moving target) is important to a marksman. Good dynamic acuity will enhance a shooter’s visual reaction time and eye tracking abilities.


B. Peripheral vision: Skillful shooters have reported a visual ability of maintaining an awareness of a central target while simultaneously maintaining a vast amount of peripheral visual awareness. A fully functioning visual system is capable of responding to objects located within a total visual field (which for each eye is approximately 40 degrees up, 60 degrees toward the nose, 70 degrees down and 90 degrees towards the temple measured from a central point of fixation). It is critical that shooters are aware of what is beyond and around the target to insure safety, and peripheral vision awareness is crucial to achieve this task.


C. Depth perception: An essential skill for the shooter who needs to judge relative distances between targets.


D. Eye motility: Eye tracking abilities are crucial to maintain accurate detail and awareness of any moving target. This skill is highly critical if a marksman needs to shoot a moving target.


E. Eye-hand-body-mind coordination: A necessary set of visual coordinated abilities that are used in developing precise trigger control while maintaining precise aim on target.


F. Visualization: The ability to use your “mind’s eye” to create a mental visual picture when direct view of a target may not be possible. This highly developed visual skill is useful to anticipate where a target or adversary is most likely to be located during episodes of lack of direct vision.


G. Speed of recognition time: Extremely important when a target may be only visible for a brief moment in time. The ability to accurately recognize as much of a target in as little as 0.01 seconds can be critical in deciding to shoot, or not shoot, a target.


H. Eye focusing flexibility: This ability plays an extremely important part of a shooter’s ability to quickly adjust focus upon targets that are located in different distances in space. The speed and flexibility of quickly changing eye focus from one point in space to another point in space has a direct influence on maintaining clear, single binocular vision while in shooting competition or in combat."

" L. Central-peripheral awareness: The ability to have awareness of central details of a target and simultaneously be aware of the visual space surrounding the target (the peripheral space around the target). This skill helps a shooter avoid getting locked into “tunnel vision” for extended periods of time."

"What is exciting to report to shooters concerning the above mentioned visual skills is that most all the skills (except for color vision) have a learned component involved in the acquisition of the skill, and this learned component can be trained to improve. Not only are there testing procedures to determine how well these skills have developed and how efficiently they function, but there is emerging a growing body of visual training techniques which may enhance performance in the visual skills important for shooting. Sports visual training is the optometric art and science of fine tuning and enhancing visual skills and abilities. Sports vision practitioners are designing exercises and learning opportunities to enhance and fine tune visual skills used during shooting.

My own "Enhanced Peripheral Vision" [ EPV ] training which I have developed and written a paper on involves this very subject of "Central-peripheral awareness" [ see above ] and "a learned component involved in the acquisition of the skill, and this learned component can be trained to improve." [ see above ].

"Why are some shooters able to maintain visual-motor (eye-hand) accuracy despite high arousal, as seen during the BAR, leading to lower visual focusing control? There are various models to help explain this paradoxically confusing relationship of visually monitored marksmanship control during the BAR. The one consistent thread that is part of most explanations is professional, comprehensive firearms sports training, and knowing when and how to implement this training with confidence.

Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems own EPV work is directly related to this subject and works in the same way to enhance and develop peripheral skills under stresses incurred during combat.

Current neurobiological biofeedback research has clearly demonstrated that humans can be trained to control certain autonomic nervous system functions. This implies that with proper training, particularly under stressful conditions, a well established image of proper visual spatial alignment can be maintained as a consistent eye-hand-body-mind coordinate system. Shooters that can maintain sufficient and efficient eye-hand-body-mind coordination control and adequate visual attention during the BAR will be capable of accurate marksmanship during high combat stress. It is becoming increasingly evident that you can learn to “visualize” a visual image even without having direct accommodation (direct focus) on the object of regard. The ability to visualize and develop improved eye-hand-body-mind coordination skills can be trained using a variety of visual training techniques."

"A 1995 research report discussed a three month visual training program conducted with the Catalan Government Special Intervention Squad at the Olympic Training Center in Spain. Pre-test and post-test results were compared for pistol shooting performance and visual function. Statistical analysis revealed significant gains in visual function and pistol shooting scores after the visual training program."

"Another example of visual training is biofeedback training. Using an instrument that allows you feedback as the relative stimulation or relaxation of the eye focusing muscle (ciliary muscle) can exert a carry over effect during intense shooting competition. A learned behavior of voluntarily stimulating a positive accommodation (parasympathetic response) during the BAR can act as a counter force to the negative accommodation response to the sympathetic nervous system stimulation during the BAR."

ITFTS training is on the leading edge of this research with it's EPV training and will remain so along with other organizations to further enhance ones own abilities through the proper training and development of skills we all possess yet which most do not understand how to use.

It also blows away the statements brought forth here by another that direct vision can not be accompanied by peripheral vision, and more importantly, enhanced under the stresses of combat through a training program such as our own.

Brownie

 

[SkyGuy]

Brownie,

You could have saved a lot of words by simply saying that central vision is about a 10-15% cone of our overall view.

Think of sighting with the cone of central vision as the same as lining up the front and rear sights; you point the handgun at the target and see both the handgun and the target...but not peripherally. Depending on your point of concentration, one is blurred and the other is not. When the outline of the gun is superimposed on the target, many call that silhouette sighting. Some call it meat 'n metal.

Central/tunnel vision is at the center of our oval picture of the world. Although we can see more than a tiny dot with central vision, it is not peripheral vision. It is 'concentrated' vision...object vision, not navigating peripheral vision.

Note that both systems work in parallel, but not simultaneously and that threat focusing suppresses the peripheral vision and motion suppresses the central vision.
If you concentrate or threat focus you will suppress/blind the peripheral and all that remains is the cone of our view; the object of our attention. That is not peripheral vision.

Training by using peripheral vision as a guide will fail you in a pinch. It won't be there because stress suppresses the peripheral and focuses attention on the threat.
I say, get a laser sight system as backup for the unintended consequences.
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[brownie0486]

Your thesis on the subject has been disproved, reference my last post.

Brownie

 

[SkyGuy]

Your thesis on the subject has been disproved, reference my last post.

Disproved? Only in your mind.

Good article, but I think you missed their point.
Those folks are talking about enhancing the periphery of our 10-15% central vision cone while under the influence of BAR. In other words, negating the sudden effects of tunnel vision by acclimating oneself to the danger of the moment with time.
I can testify that after the initial rush of a firefight, everyone settles down to the business at hand.

But the fact remains that you can't use peripheral vision 'and' central vision together. Peripheral vision becomes increasingly suppressed when concentrating on an object or threat increases, such as in threat focusing. Your article even says that.

Train all you like with the peripheral method, but when the body alarm reaction strikes you will automatically revert to 'threat focused', central vision and your peripheral vision will be suppressed. It's a biological fact.

This excerpt taken from your posted article sums it all up:

"1. The theory of perceptual narrowing suggests that as the level of demand increases on a central, straight ahead target, there will be a corresponding decrease in the visual area surrounding the central area from which peripheral information can be extracted.
2. Increased arousal causes increased narrowing of the attentional focus, with a progressive elimination of input from the more peripheral aspects of the visual field.
3. Another way of viewing "tunnel vision" is that as stress increases, there is a reduction of cues used to regulate performance. When stress levels are further increased, there is a further restriction in the range of visual cues used to sample visual space.
4. Under stress, the useful field of view shrinks, and the amount of processing of visual information is narrowed."

....and that's the way it is.
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[brownie0486]

We already know that it is suppressed, the research shows through training, it's possible to reverse those affects and actually make use of the peripheral vision.

Denial of the present research into this subject and their results in training shooters to negate the BAR effects and keep peripheral vision open and useable is what your last post tells everyone who reads the excepts.

In fact, on another forum, you were also called on this by a combat vet who has not lost his peripheral vision under SD shooting as well. Your information is outdated and screwered to fit your own thesis, but it doesn't fit with what others have found or the research ongoing in this area by them or myself.

You have your opinion, the eye specialists have theirs based on thoroughly researching into the subject in the area of shooting under stress, and the rest is history. Even in the face of facts presented, your persistance that it is not possible is at least entertaining.

As you yourself requote, the field of peripheral is narrowed, not negated under stress, therby lending credence to it's still being available but in smaller fields. Your statement earleir was that you could not have both at the same time, the research clearly says differently.

Perhaps you missed these quotes from the excperpts, but more likely just chose to ignore them as they do not fit your thesis.

"B. Peripheral vision: Skillful shooters have reported a visual ability of maintaining an awareness of a central target while simultaneously maintaining a vast amount of peripheral visual awareness.

And this one in direct conflict with your 10-15% statements:

A fully functioning visual system is capable of responding to objects located within a total visual field (which for each eye is approximately 40 degrees up, 60 degrees toward the nose, 70 degrees down and 90 degrees towards the temple measured from a central point of fixation). It is critical that shooters are aware of what is beyond and around the target to insure safety, and peripheral vision awareness is crucial to achieve this task."[/B]

"What is exciting to report to shooters concerning the above mentioned visual skills is that most all the skills (except for color vision) have a learned component involved in the acquisition of the skill, and this learned component can be trained to improve."

There are various models to help explain this paradoxically confusing relationship of visually monitored marksmanship control during the BAR. The one consistent thread that is part of most explanations is professional, comprehensive firearms sports training, and knowing when and how to implement this training with confidence.

Current neurobiological biofeedback research has clearly demonstrated that humans can be trained to control certain autonomic nervous system functions. This implies that with proper training, particularly under stressful conditions, a well established image of proper visual spatial alignment can be maintained as a consistent eye-hand-body-mind coordinate system. Shooters that can maintain sufficient and efficient eye-hand-body-mind coordination control and adequate visual attention during the BAR will be capable of accurate marksmanship during high combat stress.

Yep, disproved [ through medical research and training results in this specific field of combat peripheral vision ] about covers it here where your statements are concerned.

Brownie

 

[SkyGuy]

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL DYNAMIC OF AN ARMED CONFLICT
"During a gunfight, several things will happen to you that are easily handled if you know that they are coming. Some of them are physical, while others are purely mental.

Most of the physical complications are the result of the "Fight-or-Flight" reflex. This is the body's reaction to extreme stress. Your hands will get clammy, the muscles become stronger, the arms and legs tremble, your mouth gets dry, and you may experience an intense desire to go to the restroom.

Some of the mental manifestations are: tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and an altered perception of time (tachypsychia)."
===================

What is tunnel vision?
.....from Merriam-Webster’s Medical Dictionary:

tunnel vision:
constriction of the visual field resulting in loss of peripheral vision

tunnel vision:
visual impairment involving a loss of peripheral vision

Because the 'fight or flight' reflex results in a loss of peripheral vision via tunnel vision....it just makes sense to train in methods that do not rely on peripheral vision sighting.

No doubt peripheral sighting works in a controlled, calm and stress-free environment. With thousands of practiced draws and shots, it will develop muscle memory and the ability to hit repetitive, stationary targets. But given tunnel vision and the loss of peripheral sighting, all that remains is muscle memory.

There are other sighting methods that don't fail under the effects of tunnel vision. For example: silhouette sighting, slide sighting, meat 'n metal sighting, laser sighting, FSP, et al.

Learn to superimpose the handgun on the target. In a pinch, you'll end up doing it anyway, so just practice that way. It's as natural as the combat crouch.

Forewarned is forearmed; be prepared.
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[ArmedBear]

Learn to point.
Learn to point.
Learn to point.

Look at a faraway object. Bring binoculars to your eyes. You should see the object through the lenses. If not, practice until you do.

Try it with a pistol. Look at the target, then bring the pistol to your line of sight and shoot.

Get a shotgun and shoot clays. When you finally hit most of them, you'll understand how point shooting works (and maybe acquire a new shooting addiction).

Then grab your pistol and do the same thing until you can hit whatever you look at.

That's point shooting. Doesn't require great peripheral vision, good lighting, expensive sights, the steadiest hand, etc. It DOES work best with a gun that points well, and some guns just don't. Colt hit home runs with the 1851 Navy, 1873 Army, and 1911 Government. That's why people still shoot all three of these ancient gun designs in competition, especially competition that involves high-speed shooting.

(I can't use a laser. My dog chases laser pointer dots; she'd end up dead.)

 

[crofrog]

Brownie thanks for posting that study here, and not calling me a kid and telling me to go do my homework. I appericate it.

SkyGuy if you don't mind, I think many of us know brownie and who he is, I know I don't and I belive that this holds true for many of us, have no clue who you are.

In the intrest of persec I don't care if you post your name, but can you post some of your relavant training?

As for me, in case this is going to be a show you yours and I'll show you mine. I'm not anything special just a smart "kid" with an analytical mind in search of the truth who's been to a few classes.

 

[torpid]

Great solid advice Armed Bear.

Once you've taken AB's advice and learned to point, then slap a laser on that puppy and WOW!

 

[brownie0486]

You bring Mirriam to the plate in defense of your position? You ARE getting desperate aren't you.

Because the 'fight or flight' reflex results in a loss of peripheral vision via tunnel vision....it just makes sense to train in methods that do not rely on peripheral vision sighting.

Thats not what research is showing specialists in the field of this subject, nor is it what many combat vets and LE have experienced in the field. It is not an absolute as you want others to believe.

"B. Peripheral vision: Skillful shooters have reported a visual ability of maintaining an awareness of a central target while simultaneously maintaining a vast amount of peripheral visual awareness.

A fully functioning visual system is capable of responding to objects located within a total visual field (which for each eye is approximately 40 degrees up, 60 degrees toward the nose, 70 degrees down and 90 degrees towards the temple measured from a central point of fixation

"What is exciting to report to shooters concerning the above mentioned visual skills is that most all the skills (except for color vision) have a learned component involved in the acquisition of the skill, and this learned component can be trained to improve."

There are other sighting methods that don't fail under the effects of tunnel vision. For example: silhouette sighting, slide sighting, meat 'n metal sighting, laser sighting, FSP, et al.

Now we know you aren't speaking with an educated opinion with the above statement. FSP has been taught for years at the academies and too many officers to count have experienced tunnel vision during a lethal confrontation. As well, you have not been trained in metal on meat and there are no studies supporting your claims it does not fall to tunnel vision, that again is just your proferring an opinion thats not based on facts in evidence and expecting the members here to accept your opinions as gospel.

It's apparent you don't have any idea how peripheral skills techniques actually work from your posts, andeven in the face of evidence and reserach to the contrary, persist in this tact to support a position you have neither researched, had training in, nor have the skills to perform.

You told us to ask any eye doctor, I gave you research into this specific subject by a speacialist in this field, and you continue to refute the evidence provided by that eye doctor at your suggestion.

Next time, be careful what you ask for, it may just turn out that it proves you are unaware of research ongoing and results from that research, and be found to be wrong again.

Brownie

 

[PX15]

Here's the deal.

Senior citizen, declining eyesight.

I don't plan on long distance shootouts, and I could care less about whether or not I can hit anything "down range"....

My two favorite firearms (pictured) are Crimson Trace Lasergrips equipped.. Both lasers are zeroed in at approximately 15 ft... If I ever have to shoot in defense of my life it will be at a closer distance than that.

If I recognize a threat further out I will hobble my way to a retreat.. Dignified, or un-dignified...

FOR ME, and FOR ME only I know my laser equipped firearms will indeed put a nice hole whereever the red dot falls within 15' or less. If I am hyper-ventilating, blood pressure rising, adrenlin pumping I still think I can hit center mass of a human at that self defense distance.

I will look at the threat and point my firearm at the threat. If the red dot appears I will certainly be comforted by that fact, and if the red dot does not appear I will still shoot at center mass.

For me the Crimson Trace Lasergrips are a fantastic visual aid and increases my potential for accuracy big time. If YOU don't like them, if you think they are just gimmicks, whatever, that's your business.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I've already got mine.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

 

[brownie0486]

Crofrog,

Sjyguy has been asked numerous times for that information. He hides behind the net and ignores [ thereby refusing ] to give that information.

He has at times here and elsewhere stated he was a firearms trainer, but won't post where he can be reached for clases, posted that he was trained in QK rifle in the army [ but went through boot before the program was even started ], stated he trains "operators" in firearms skills [ then backpedaled when a MOD here asked him for specifics on the "operator" training by stating he thinks ccw carriers are "operators" ], and has generally just proferred opinions as facts which have proven to be in error.

I expect he'll not comply with your request or that of others in the future and continue to hide behind the veil of the web.

Brownie

 

[NineseveN]

Where do you sight your dot in at? At first I sighted my M6X in to be dead on at the 21' mark, but then I realized that this had problems, when beyond the set point the dot was high on target and the further away the more this was amplified. So I reset mine to be square with the slide so basically the dot is always 2 1/2 " low WRT where the bullet impact point is, it is easy to compensate for this, now 10' or 100' the impact point is the same other than bullet drop, which is a product of range.
Any thoughts on how you sight yours in?

How did that opening question turn into the heaping mound of garbage that this thread has come to? It seems that when some folks jump into a thread about nearly any subject, it always ends up turning into the same conversation that has locked a number of threads before. Can't people just answer the OP's question without slamming their dogma down everyone's throat? I don't recall the OP or anyone else asking about alternative methods, they just asked how they sight in their laser.

 

[SkyGuy]

PX15,

Great post and right on!!

Here's my self defense stuff, lasers and all:

 

[shooter503]

NineseveN,

These threads do seem to become "idealogically fixated" which is why I bailed out of this one. However, to be fair this Forum is called "Strategies and Tactics" so I suppose we can only expect the viewers to be more interested in those subjects and more likely to go "off thread" in that direction.

Perhaps the original question would have been better asked under "Handguns General" or perhaps we need a new Forum, something like "Gunsmithing and Technical".

 

[NineseveN]

owever, to be fair this Forum is called "Strategies and Tactics" so I suppose we can only expect the viewers to be more interested in those subjects and more likely to go "off thread" in that direction.

Good point, my disgust has been lessened. Thank you.

 

[torpid]

Perhaps the original question would have been better asked under "Handguns General" or perhaps we need a new Forum, something like "Gunsmithing and Technical".

Or perhaps we can add a forum called "The neverending posts of guys locked in an eternal struggle over the merits of laser sights".

 

[shooter503]

My sincere pleasure NineseveN.

Now if we can just eliminate the gratuitous photos of people's toys and get on with useful discussions.

 

[NineseveN]

Or perhaps we can add a forum called "The neverending posts of guys locked in an eternal struggle over the merits of laser sights".

That has made this thread worth it. Lol.

I'm done, back to lurking.

 

[shooter503]

Strongly held opinions ferociously argued are great.

The problem comes when the logic of the debate sinks to "this is what I believe, forget the facts". At that point everyone is wasting their time.

If we were all sitting in the same gun club having these discussions the solution would be easy - head down to the range and put your money where your mouth is!

 

[crofrog]

If we were all sitting in the same gun club having these discussions the solution would be easy - head down to the range and put your money where your mouth is!

Exactly, that's why some people so feircly hold there opinions though, because there is no one to show them they are wrong.