For all who use a laser

[NineseveN]

I think a large part of the problem is that we have two diametrically opposed ideas with correspondingly opposed realities going head to head, comparing oranges to grapefruits.

On one side, we have folks advocating point shooting and sighted techniques over a laser. With enough practice, nearly anyone can be come blazingly proficient in these kinds of disciplines and the benefits are readily apparent as opposed to using a laser. First, there are no batteries to die on you, there are no electrical circuits to burn out, malfunction or break, and these techniques can be used on any gun you pick up. It’s a very fundamental, basic and solid category of techniques and they work, provided you put work into them and become proficient.

But on the other side we see folks the advocate the benefits coming from having a laser mounted. One of the primary benefits of a laser is that it can offer confidence and quicker time to target for people that don't truly practice all that often. Let's be honest, not everyone can really spend the time (or they don't choose to) in order to become proficient with sighted fire, drawing techniques, point shooting, shooting while moving, clearing a jam etc... The laser offers these folks an alternative that is better than trying to sight a gun on target when they don’t practice this because the laser helps to eliminate the need (in the absence of a better method that has been trained and practiced).

The overwhelming majority of gun owners don't practice like the fringe hardcore folks do, their methods and the tools that make sense for them are going to be different than the applicable tools for the more experienced or better-trained people, that's the way it is. For someone that races NASCAR three times a week or a race enthusiast, a manual transmission normally makes sense because it's better in gas mileage and performance...for the person that only drives their car once per week to the grocery store or sits in rush hour traffic 80% of their time in a car, the automatic transmission is a better bet. I think we’re simply seeing enthusiast/extreme ideals clashing with the casual methodology.

Now, some of you can choose to berate those that take the easier way out and slap a laser on a gun that they only shoot a few times per year instead of becoming Rambo, but rule #1 is to have a gun...and most defensive shootings involve Joe-lazy with a gun they don't train 8-10 hours a week with, so while the enthusiast methodology will give better results to the select few that commit to training on them, the majority of folks are better served by the casual toolbox because someone that shoots 50 rounds a year probably is not going to maintain great success with any of the performance-driven methods.

Now, for the folks that do have tons of time on the range and choose to use a laser in addition to any of the other more performance driven methodologies, chances are, since they’ve spent so much time training on it, they’ve found out what works for them and what doesn’t…it’s polite to offer advice, it’s not polite to force it on someone when they’re not paying you to do so.

 

[crofrog]

someone that shoots 50 rounds a year probably is not going to maintain great success with any of the performance-driven methods.

It's unlikely they will be successful with any method...

Failing to prepare, is preparing to fail.

 

[NineseveN]

It's unlikely they will be successful with any method...

Failing to prepare, is preparing to fail.

That's a nice mantra, and it would look good on a button or a T-shirt, but the overwhelming majority of defensive shootings involve people that do not practice and train like the fringe extreme of us do. That's a fact. It's not the mall ninja's that are the majority of the people resisting crime and assaults with firearms, it's the stereotypical Joe-lazy, and he's very often successful despite the lack of training. You don't need to be high-speed/low drag to survive a common street thug, you just need to be a little better, a little faster and a little luckier than he is...and you've got the element of surprise if you're Joe-lazy, because the thug doesn't expect an armed response from you. For this kind of person, in this scenario, the laser helps more than it hurts. While it may slow down Rob Leatham, it can give Joe-lazy a slight edge because of his utter lack of skill and the confidence that a laser can provide to someone that is not proficient with their firearm.

Not that I advocate that folks don't get training, but let's be realistic, folks without proper training or practice defend their own lives hundreds of thousands of times per year with a firearm, despite not being IDPA Grand Masters, Airborne Rangers or SWAT operatives.

 

[ArmedBear]

Once you've taken AB's advice and learned to point, then slap a laser on that puppy and WOW!

THAT is true.

A laser is a great tool for a skilled shooter, not a replacement for skill. It makes pointing even quicker, but only if you already know how to do it!

Not that I advocate that folks don't get training, but let's be realistic, folks without proper training or practice defend their own lives hundreds of thousands of times per year with a firearm, despite not being IDPA Grand Masters, Airborne Rangers or SWAT operatives.

Yes. And 99.9% of the successful defensive shoots don't involve lasers, either.

 

[brownie0486]

It makes pointing even quicker, but only if you already know how to do it!

The one older gentleman in our class who had practiced exclusively with a laser for 2 years was considerably slower with the laser after learning the threat focused skills. He dropped the laser from his carry piece before the end of the weekend of training. He was getting two shots on threat before he could see the dot [ his words and experiences, not my observations ].

I can't speak for others results about the laser being quicker to point with the exception of this man and my own experiences.

And 99.9% of the successful defensive shoots don't involve lasers, either.

I had not thought in that direction when I read the others quote you put up, but it does bring home the fact that the untrained normal citizen defends quite nicely without one. Good point AB

Brownie

 

[NineseveN]

Yes. And 99.9% of the successful defensive shoots don't involve lasers, either.

And 99.9% of unsuccessful defensive shoots don't involve lasers either (I figured if we were gonna play the fake but likely statistics game, I'd throw my hat into the ring as well)...so no, they don't need a laser, but it obviously doesn't hurt unless you have enough skill that it's slower than another method. That's my point.

 

[ArmedBear]

it obviously doesn't hurt unless you have enough skill that it's slower than another method

That's true, about 84.8% of the time.

Seriously, though, as long as someone does some familiarization shooting every now and then, it can't hurt 'em.

I think the only time that gadgets are a problem is when someone doesn't do any practice AT ALL because he thinks the gadget will take care of everything. Shooting with a laser still requires some skill, and some familiarity with the firearm.

That would be a dumb reason to discourage someone from getting a laser, of course, but a good reason to encourage at least minimal practice with it.

 

[Cacique500]

I swear it's like reading an info-mercial...

 

[NineseveN]

Agreed. Nice talking with you.

 

[Cousin Mike]

A laser is a great tool for a skilled shooter, not a replacement for skill. It makes pointing even quicker, but only if you already know how to do it!

Now if only I could have gotten all my thoughts into that few words... :banghead: That's exactly how I felt with the Glock & CTC grips. I'm looking forward to trying on a pair w/a Sig.

On another note:

I understand the other thoughs here about shooters who refuse to practice. In my experience, it's always an issue of "won't" more than an issue of "can't." I'm not saying I drop 50,000 rounds a week or anything, and sometimes my schedule gets busy without warning, and I miss a range session or two. I try to go at least every other week though.

It's not like it's some terrible activity that's no fun to practice.

I just don't see any practicality in owning a gun for self defense, and not practicing with it. I've seen my friends who fit this profile take guns they've had for years to the range for the first time, and miss all 10 shots on a target at 3 yards. Of course, they always look at you like they can't believe that just happened - but what did they expect?

Most people think a gun is going to point itself right between the eyes of the attacker. It amazes me how often I hear people right here on THR seriously suggest that they think they could hit an attackers head reliably in an SD situation - as if they would experience no adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, panic, fear, or any other human emotion during a life threatening attack.

A pistol isn't an end-all be-all solution to stopping BG's - and we should be careful that we don't encourage that sense of false security in people. Lots of people die with pistols in their hand. If you want to prevent that from being the outcome, practice is not just your best bet.. it's the only bet.

 

[mdao]

I just don't see any practicality in owning a gun for self defense, and not practicing with it. I've seen my friends who fit this profile take guns they've had for years to the range for the first time, and miss all 10 shots on a target at 3 yards. Of course, they always look at you like they can't believe that just happened - but what did they expect?

Most people think a gun is going to point itself right between the eyes of the attacker. It amazes me how often I hear people right here on THR seriously suggest that they think they could hit an attackers head reliably in an SD situation - as if they would experience no adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, panic, fear, or any other human emotion during a life threatening attack.

A pistol isn't an end-all be-all solution to stopping BG's - and we should be careful that we don't encourage that sense of false security in people. Lots of people die with pistols in their hand. If you want to prevent that from being the outcome, practice is not just your best bet.. it's the only bet.

It's all in the odds.

Just brandishing gun will stop ~90% of BGs. Now that's reasonably effective and a damned sight better than most methods of discouraging BGs. And if that doesn't work, hitting the BG with once out of the dozen or so rounds in their tactical hi-cap autoloader will stop most of the rest.

That's why it's practical to own a gun for self defense but never practice.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've seen my friends who fit this profile take guns they've had for years to the range for the first time, and miss all 10 shots on a target at 3 yards. Of course, they always look at you like they can't believe that just happened - but what did they expect?

It all depends. There are people who can go a year without practice, pick up a gun, and do fine. Then there are people (generally men under 40) whose egos don't allow them to learn, and they can't hit squat even with "practice". I know one. He's more of a "buyer" than a shooter.

I could have him in the 10 ring, but the ego's been too fragile. His flinch is amazing. I handed him an empty gun and he pulled the trigger while pulling the gun down a good 2 inches in anticipation of recoil. But he's too proud to listen to friendly (NOT arrogant, very positive) advice or teaching, and he's too "manly" to practice with a .22, which is what he really needs.

One way or another, a laser isn't magic; it's just another kind of gunsight. If you can't hold the gun straight while pulling the trigger, under stress, the laser won't do a damn thing for you.

Skill is about more than just being able to line up the front sight with the rear sight. And if you have no pointing skills and can't hold the gun steady while relaxed, you can't do these things while stressed, either. Shooting a handgun well enough to hit an assailant at 10 feet is not something that requires all that much skill. But it does require SOME. Even sweeping the floor requires some skill, some knowledge of how to use your body efficiently.

 

[nibb]

I dont have a laser. But i would point it as far as my sight goes. As far as i can see the red point. What the point of using laser if you are going to shoot 10 feet from you. Point is as far as you still easy indentify the red point.

 

[Sheldon J]

keep the discussion going

Actually I am enjoying all this controversy, lots of good opinions and thoughts here all very enjoyable, but my original point was I have recently re-sighted my laser on the M6X to now impact 2.5 inches bellow bore sight impact point that way I have a reliable reference point regardless of distance from target, instead of the right on the mark at 21’ tactically I feel this is superior to my original brain fart.

Yes a laser is a crutch, and I do practice a quick attach with out looking, right hand gun left hand pocket and M6X swing both to position. Bonus points: it is a intimidation tool to stop someone hopefully without having to shoot, but penetrate my 21’ safety zone I do not have to aim to know where the round is going. Also a good training tool so when dry firing you can concentrate on keeping the dot steady in one spot and help reduce flinch.

But keep the discussion going I like the opposing points of view… all food for thought.

 

[brownie0486]

but penetrate my 21’ safety zone I do not have to aim to know where the round is going.

Sure you do, no matter what sighting system/s you choose to use or not, you still must aim the gun muzzle at the threat.

Even threat focused skills is not "not aiming" it is still aiming the weapon at the threat. In your case you would be aiming the laser at the threat.

Brownie

 

[shooter503]

Sheldon,

I do not understand what you mean by "bore sight impact point". It is not a term normally used during sight adjustment.

However, as they say, it does not matter a "rat's a**" or any other descriptive comment.

Only important points.
1. Left/right adjustment should always be dead on with the bullet impact point. For a centrally mounted laser this is easy to adjust and once it is set, care taken, it is set forever. There may be slight divergence with "offset" lasers.
2. Adjust the laser vertically so the bullet strikes the dot at a suitable range, 21 feet is fine but it really is not critical. From then on you can get used to the bullet impact point relative to the dot by actual firing. (You will probably want to use a sandbag rest for laser adjustment and testing).

Get used to where the bullet impact point is in relation to the dot from a range of 5 feet up to about 25 yards, that will cover just about any possible need. Without knowing your cartridge,gun and laser mount position I can't predict accurately but my guess is that, below 21 feet your point of impact will always be high on the laser dot but not by more than 4 inches, probably much less. This is because as the bullet leaves the muzzle it climbs above the laser beam on its parabolic trajectory. After 21 feet the bullet impact will be below the laser dot, slightly below at first but rapidly falling lower as range increases.

You can see why all this happens by studying trajectory diagrams.

Why is this adjustment not critical? Inside 21 feet or so this setting will give you a good solid hit on something vital if your dot is in the right place, even with as much as a 4 inch error. The shot will be high (which may actually be good). Outside of 21 feet the bullet impact will be low but it will still probably be within 4 inches of the dot out to 35 feet or so (just guesses). Still good. Outside of 35 feet you will have time to adjust your aim (hold the dot high) if you think you need to do so.

Keep it simple and standardised because you are not going to be thinking as well as you normally do with the adrenalin up.

 

[brownie0486]

Get used to where the bullet impact point is in relation to the dot from a range of 5 feet up to about 25 yards,

Thereby slowing the time to make a shot even further while you mentally extrapolate the trajectory variables of the laser?.

There much tado about accuracy and how threat focused skills can't give you the same accuracy as using ones sights in some manner. Now we are discussing the use of a tool that will be somewhere between some distance high and some distance low based on variables of distance to the threat, that match or exceed [ in reality they exceed ] those met with comabt accuracy with a system deemed not accurate enough [ threat focused skills ] by those who believe small little groups are necessary skills in SD shooting and the only way you can get there is to use your sights.

One reference point to remember at any distance from 3-60 feet with Quick Kill. Nothing to remember about trajectory tables, high or low at different distances as is now being discussed here concerning setting up a laser. The more I hear, the less enamored I am with these "tools' and the proponents advocating them as "better", they are proposed and suggested to make you faster, more accurate and therefor a better combat shooter.

To be quite honest, I'm not getting a real warm and fuzzy here with this tact about these superior tools for self defense. They shoud require less shooter intervention and thinking on the shooters part to make hits where you want them, not more to my thinking, to even be considered something helpful when time is going to be of the essence.

But do carry on with this line of thinking and discussion, it's all becoming so amusing to read, people trying to warrant their use as superior to ones own natural abilities.

Brownie

 

[Cousin Mike]

That's why it's practical to own a gun for self defense but never practice.

Let's not confuse laziness with practicality. It will NEVER be practical to own a gun and not practice shooting. If that's the way people choose to own guns, that's fine by me. I just think if someone is serious about protecting themselves, there's no other alternative.

For those who think that merely posessing a firearm makes them Billy Badass, well... not practicing could be justified. Doesn't make it any less silly or irresponsible. Assuming that logic, why not just load the thing with blanks?

You're not training for the 87.46254% of the time that you won't have to fire in an SD situation...

You train for the other 12.64856% of the time that you WILL have to fire on someone to defend yourself... and since you never know which time is which, there's no way possible to consider not training a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Then there are people (generally men under 40) whose egos don't allow them to learn, and they can't hit squat even with "practice". I know one. He's more of a "buyer" than a shooter.

I could have him in the 10 ring, but the ego's been too fragile. His flinch is amazing. I handed him an empty gun and he pulled the trigger while pulling the gun down a good 2 inches in anticipation of recoil. But he's too proud to listen to friendly (NOT arrogant, very positive) advice or teaching, and he's too "manly" to practice with a .22, which is what he really needs.

AB, that's just unfortunate... You perfectly described my best friend. I've never seen a man flinch like that with a pistol. Even after I tried to give him some pointers, his flinch was AMAZING. Keep in mind, we werent even shooting his .45ACP. I rented an XD9for him to learn on. You'd have thought it was a .50AE.

Even after finding out that he cant hit the broad side of a barn at 3 yards, he STILL refuses to practice.

For a long time I fought getting a .22 for practice. Now I'm starting to realize that it's the only way my shooting will get better than it is now... FWIW though, I'm a damn good shot out to about 15 yards.

I'm 26 - and have been practicing shooting, and teaching myself, reading, taking notes from other shooters, etc. since the minute it was legal for me to set foot in a pistol range. It's never occured to me NOT to practice.

A couple of my friends, OTOH, are rediculous examples of gunowners, and refuse to practice... even with what they have. Some of them have some really fancy pistols... that sit under their beds, year round, collecting dust. One friend of mine only has 2 rounds of ammunition for his gun! He claims that's all he needs.

I've offered him ammo for free... He wont take it.

I'm so tired of trying to understand his retarded behavior that I just refuse to talk guns with him anymore. Great friend... sh*tty gunowner. Now for the kicker...

It's the same guy who couldn't hit the target at 3 yards.

Half-ass gunowners do very dumb things. Fine by me, I feel safer knowing most people with guns don't practice shooting, and have no idea what self defense is really all about. But it upsets me a tad when they try to justify it as responsible, because having a firearm in and of itself is their magic talisman against evil.

That's just as irresponsible - and likely to get you killed - as it is stupid.

Not practicing, and trying to compensate that with a laser, is even more irresponsible.

 

[shooter503]

Calm down Brownie. You and I are much closer in our ideas than you think even though you have a fancy name for your technique and I just call it point shooting.

Sheldon wanted a way to set up a laser. I suggested one to him. He is apparently concerned about making the right choice based on dot position and bullet impact point so I gave him some rough numbers to justify my advice.

If you come off the celing and read what I said you will see there is no suggestion that he should adjust his point of aim at a range of less than 35 feet and then after that range "if you think you need to do so.". That could mean at ANY range after 35 feet, say, 25 yards. All I am doing with the numbers is showing him why he does not need the adjustment.

I said:
"Why is this adjustment not critical? Inside 21 feet or so this setting will give you a good solid hit on something vital if your dot is in the right place, even with as much as a 4 inch error. The shot will be high (which may actually be good). Outside of 21 feet the bullet impact will be low but it will still probably be within 4 inches of the dot out to 35 feet or so (just guesses). Still good. Outside of 35 feet you will have time to adjust your aim (hold the dot high) if you think you need to do so."

Now let's establish some performance guidelines. Let's assume seven rounds because that covers most autos. Let's assume ten feet because it is good round number. Let's assume an 8 inch paper picnic plate because that is about standard.

How many rounds do you expect a graduate, then an expert, to put into that plate, from the ready, in 3 seconds? 2 seconds? 1 second?

How does the performance fall off if a turning target is used as opposed to a fixed target?

--------------------------------
Good sense Cousin Mike.

 

[PX15]

Man, this thread has gotten complicated.. "To laser, or not to laser"?

FWIW:

And I can only speak for myself. I have owned firearms since 1954. I have carried concealed to some degree since 1965. My first "Pistol Toter's License" was issued by the state of Georgia that summer.

For DECADES I could shoot quite accurately without any "aids"... My vision was 15/20 and I could most certainly hit center mass of any reasonable target at 7' any day of the week.. I shot on a regular basis, and thought my accuracy was pretty good.

I am now 63, going on 64 years old. I wear bi-focals, and I can't see with any clarity the rear and front sights at the same time to acquire the "sight picture" I took for granted for so many years. My hands also are not as "steady" as when I wasn't an old fart..

Now because of my 5 decades of experience, and firearms ownership I still think I could point the pistol/revolver at the threat at 7' and have a pretty good chance to putting a round somewhere thereabouts.

But IMO, that is IMO, I have a much better chance of putting the rounds where I want them when I have the red dot to clue me as to where the pistol is pointed.. With my CT Lasergrips I CAN see the red dot even in direct sunlight.. At night the dot is even more visible.

I don't practice as much as I use to. I don't see as well as I use to. My hands aren't steady as they once were.

I'm old, but I'm not old and Stupid.. Not to take advantage of the excellent Lasergrips by Crimson Trace would in my estimation be as stupid as having a pistol for cc and not having a round in the chamber..

I have no quarrel with folks with excellent natural vision and accuracy skills. I was there once, I'm not there now. Sooner or later EVERYONE will face declining vision, and when you start looking for something to get your skills back to at least self defense level you might take a 2nd look at lasers.

Just my old fart opinion, yours is just as valid and welcome.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

 

[shooter503]

I know what you are saying PX15, I am not that far behind you in age. I wear bifocals but I have another complication, astigmatism. This problem affects red light particularly. In the dark blues and greens don't seem to be too bad but red lights, such as neon signs, are badly blurred without glasses.

I do not think a laser would help me much if I lost my glasses in a fight but I can still point shoot without them.

 

[Cousin Mike]

To clarify, none of what I said is directed toward anyone who is older, physically or financially inable to practice.

Especially not the older shooters - I'm a young guy. I have no clue what it's like to face declining vision, amongst other things - and have too much respect for people to bash them because of something I know nothing about. I also think that even if you could only see a blur at 7 yards, a person with 50 years of firearms experience is a very capable individual - and probably quite capable of putting down the threat very quickly and efficiently. If a laser helps someone who's abilities are not as good as they once were, I'm all for it.

You've put in your time on the range, Mr. J. Pomeroy... get those laser grips and sleep easy.

My posts are directed at the lazy ones who never had any intent on practicing. The ones who buy guns for show, think that simply owning one is enough to conquer all threats. The ones who think that putting a laser on it is a great way to be tacti-cool - and that it will always and without fail, scare the bad guy into submission.

Big difference between someone too macho to take advice and go to the range, and someone who's put in the time but no longer has the ability they used to.

IMHO the former is the foolish one, and the latter is the wiser.

 

[brownie0486]

shooter503;

I was only being facitious in that post, I'm as calm as a hurricane most of the time I understand we are close in ideology sir.

How many rounds do you expect a graduate, then an expert, to put into that plate, from the ready, in 3 seconds? 2 seconds? 1 second?

Funny you should ask that,

There's a vid on my own site of myself and a student, turned instructor within the ITFTS courses that, shows me shooting three targets, 4 feet apart from shoulder to shoulder at 12 feet distance, where at the buzzer I put 2 into each within the 8 inches COM you mention in exactly 2.24 seconds from the draw of an OWB holster using Quick Kill.

The student, now instructor had two days one day of training on Quick Kill, had only been shooting for 5 years at the time, and ran a 2.14 of the same drill. Shots and times did not count if any shots were outside the 8 inch COM.

If I take away the transition times, to put 6 rds into one target with Quick Kill from the draw, I'm looking at about a 1.75-1.85 time into COM, including the draw stroke at the buzzer [ or go or anything else that stimulates a response ].

I can't say what a student coud do individually, but 6-7 rds into that COM at 10-12 feet is reasonable with a day or two under my guidance of the Quick Kill technique. Thats not exceptionally fast, nor are my times or the students/instructors in the overall scheme of things, but it is fast enough as the first shot is breaking at about .90-1.00 seconds. The transitions from threat to threat always hover at about .25 for me, the splits between shots at around .21 and as low as .18, still keeping all shots COM or they don't count.

There's also a vid clip of my drawing and firing a one shot drill at 10 feet inside that 8" COM from the buzzer at .43 seconds, the first run was .46. The hand was hovering over the gun, not touching it when the buzzer went off, I anticipated the shot being needed, it was shot from the hip in what is know as elbow up/elbow down and is a specific skill we train others to perform from the draw which gets rounds on threat reliably within a few hours from past courses.

PX15:

Using ones sights [ lining them up ] gets hard to do as the eyes age. Ever tried or been shown any good threat focused skills? One of the great advantages to the skills we impart is that you only need to be able to see the threat with corrected lenses. If you can see the threat, you can hit anything you look at without needing to see or look at the gun.

In ourt last class in Knoxville, well, here's what one student had to say about his friend in class.

"As proof of the effectiveness of the techniques and Brownie's training a buddy of mine in the class put the training to a serious test in one exercise. Moving forward while firing, to take a knee, to back up all while engaging the target. Supposed to be a nice linear exercise with the one level change except when my buddy started to come back up he fell to the left. He knew he was falling and knew that he had rounds in the mag and he kept firing as he went down to dump the rounds in a safe direction. He kept focused on the target and firing at the target and before he got half way to the ground he ran out and the slide locked back. Even while falling he kept the rounds on target! Now that's proof that the freaking techniques Brownie taught us work!!!"

This man suffers from the same affects of vision deterioration as yourself and many otehrs due to aging. He had not problem keeping up with the class of much younger students with much better vision, his targets were as good as anyones for the entire weekend. He found a system that he can use with the problems he has visually, and he can be handed ANY gun, and perform the same, without the use of a laser. Oh yes, he was able to shoot out to 30 feet with the skills, and as long as the threat was visible, he could hit it.

Brownie

 

[brownie0486]

duplicate posts, damned

 

[brownie0486]

duplicate post somehow

Brownie