Foregrip on a pistol question

[Ten Mile Knives]

Hi, I was contemplating the nauseating minutia of ATF pistol regulations. Specifically I was wondering about the foregrip laws which say that a "pistol" may not have a vertical foregrip. I have two questions here:

1) Does this mean only 90 degree grips, or is it more vague and the guys running AFGs on their pistols are in a legal grey area? Could I for instance put on an 80 degree grip?

2) What if I have a gun with a magazine well in front of the trigger and pistol grip, but a barrel less than 16 inches, the magwell can be gripped like a foregrip and is around 90 degrees. Picture an MP-40 like gun where the ATF would call it a pistol, but would the magwell that is meant to be used as a foregrip too make it illegal?

 

[Ten Mile Knives]

One more weird note, I have also wondered about guns that have handguards like a Steyr AUG, if an enlarged trigger guard was shaped so that it would provide a good gripping surface, would that make an SBR with it an "Any other weapon"?

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I think that ATF rule is dumb. I had one that also has a built in bi-pod. It pops out when you hit a button. I had it on a 1911 at the gun club. I was using it to help hold steady to tweak the sights. One of the members said that it's illegal. I thought he was just B.S'N me. I looked it up he was correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

...

1) Does this mean only 90 degree grips, or is it more vague and the guys running AFGs on their pistols are in a legal grey area? Could I for instance put on an 80 degree grip?

There is no regulation that spells out to what degree a foregrip does/does not make a pistol an AOW. ATF uses the term "vertical foregrip" and not a degree of angle. Whether ATF believes its a vertical grip or not a vertical grip is done by ATF determination letters. You write a letter to ATF and ask for their opinion.

ATF used to accept accessories for determinations, but no more. After the arm brace debacle where they were getting dozens of requests for determination every week they now require you submit the entire firearm.
https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

2) What if I have a gun with a magazine well in front of the trigger and pistol grip, but a barrel less than 16 inches, the magwell can be gripped like a foregrip and is around 90 degrees. Picture an MP-40 like gun where the ATF would call it a pistol, but would the magwell that is meant to be used as a foregrip too make it illegal?

You gripping a magwell does not mean the pistol has a second vertical grip.

 

[Electrod47]

The original foregrip contention comes from the 1930's Dilinger had them on one of his 1911's tricked out with a custom made 30rd banana magazine.

 

[dogtown tom]

The original foregrip contention comes from the 1930's Dilinger had them on one of his 1911's tricked out with a custom made 30rd banana magazine.

Not a "banana" but an esstendo. (lower left center) >38 Super, modified to fire full auto. Likely the reason he attached a Thompson grip.

 

[CapnMac]

The original foregrip contention

Well, the original intention was to ban all handguns, and any modification that resembled a handgun.

The "Highway Bandits" made a lot of news, but, very typically well after the fact.
It had to be reported, newsreel footage shot, the footage edited and printed, then the reels sent out to the various movie film distributors to be cut into the day's run for after the matinee and before the cartoon.
Which could take weeks.
The news cycle was much slower in those days.

What may be more telling is that enough stalwarts in Congress prevented a handgun ban.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There is no regulation that spells out to what degree a foregrip does/does not make a pistol an AOW. ATF uses the term "vertical foregrip" and not a degree of angle. Whether ATF believes its a vertical grip or not a vertical grip is done by ATF determination letters. You write a letter to ATF and ask for their opinion.

ATF used to accept accessories for determinations, but no more. After the arm brace debacle where they were getting dozens of requests for determination every week they now require you submit the entire firearm.
https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

You gripping a magwell does not mean the pistol has a second vertical grip.

Do I correctly understand that the small triangular thing people put under the barrel on their AR's is not considered a vertical foregrip?

 

[mjsdwash]

ATF used to accept accessories for determinations, but no more. After the arm brace debacle where they were getting dozens of requests for determination every week they now require you submit the entire firearm.
https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download
.

I thought it was the TacSac that led to that?

 

[dogtown tom]

Do I correctly understand that the small triangular thing people put under the barrel on their AR's is not considered a vertical foregrip?

The Magpul AFG is not a vertical foregrip according to this ATF determination letter.

 

[old lady new shooter]

The Magpul AFG is not a vertical foregrip according to this ATF determination letter.
View attachment 1000695

Thanks.

 

[CapnMac]

is not considered a vertical foregrip?

As it's about 30º from the horizontal (or about 60º from the vertical) that may have influenced ATFE when they ruled on it.
I have this memory that there were other angles offered early on, like 45º & 50º. Which are OK on rifles but not so much on pistols.

 

[mokin]

I'm going to stir the pot a little here....

One more weird note, I have also wondered about guns that have handguards like a Steyr AUG, if an enlarged trigger guard was shaped so that it would provide a good gripping surface, would that make an SBR with it an "Any other weapon"?

Mention of the AUG brought to mind bullpup designs and how they tend to have a tendency toward a center of gravity around the grip/trigger. I have found it very comfortable and natural to hold a bullpup with a "teacup" type of grip. Now to stir,...

Would there be legal entanglements if I were to build a "pistol" based on a bullpup design? Something along the lines of those "AR" or "AK" designs that use braces. The idea of designing a bullpup is that it may be easily held and operated without a brace.

 

[12Bravo20]

WIth a bull pup, you still must have a barrel length of 16" or more AND the overall length of the bull pup MUST be over 26". That is if it is designed to be fired from he shoulder, and pretty much all bull pup designs are.

I don't see an AK being turned into a bull pup pistol and be very user friendly or balanced. With the AR, you would have to go with a system that does not use a buffer and the buffer tube. Bufferless systems aren't that common and are usually very expensive.