From Now On Please.

[mastiffhound]

:banghead: I am so tired of having someone tell me that a Ruger SR556, Stag model 8, H&K 416, and others are not AR-15s. So forever more I think we should call them AR pattern rifles. It would get get rid of all of the useless posts telling people they are wrong. It would also get rid of all the useless posts of people defending their previous posts. We say this for AKM copys so it should work for AR-15s. This is The High Road, not the "argue every little thing of minimal importance road". I won't be surprised if someone argues with this either.

 

[45_auto]

They're right, the rifles you mentioned are not AR-15's. The name "AR-15" is a Colt registered trademark, which refers only to the semi-automatic rifle made by Colt.

So if it isn't a Colt, it isn't a real AR-15. Just like when you make a "Xerox" of something, you're not making a real "Xerox" unless you use a copy machine from the Xerox company, since that's a registered trademark.

In the real world, why get your panties in a wad worrying about it. Who cares??

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So - is there a "trolling" emoticon?

 

[56hawk]

So if it isn't a Colt, it isn't a real AR-15.

Except for these:

 

[jeepnik]

Oh boy, let's throw 1911's and it's various names into the stew. Simple fact is, words are used to convey meaning. If two people know what the word is trying to convey, it doesn't matter. If we called Armalite pattern (or gee even Stoner) firearms lemon gumdrops, and we all understand that a lemon gundrop is really the M16 sorta thing, we have "communicated" an idea via words.

Oh yea, lets toss clip vs magazine in there too.

 

[GCMkc]

Isn't this like calling all soda pop, Coke?

"Oh yea, lets toss clip vs magazine in there too".

Clips feed mags. Mags feed guns (with a few exceptions).

 

[jeepnik]

Isn't this like calling all soda pop, Coke?

"Oh yea, lets toss clip vs magazine in there too".

Clips feed mags. Mags feed guns (with a few exceptions).

Yep, or tissue Kleenex and we could go on and on. Some folks are seriously anal retentive. Either that, or have a lot of time on their hands. Sorta like me.

 

[mastiffhound]

That is the point of calling it a AR pattern rifle. A polish or romanian AKM is not a REAL russian AK-47. They look like an ak-47 but they are made differently and manufactured by someone else or some other country, not the izhmash factory in russia. They are ak pattern rifles. Same with the AR-15. For instance the ruger sr-556, h&k 416, and others look like an AR but they are not because of a few internal parts. I said AR pattern because they are not AR-15s, I don't think Colt can say anything about calling something an AR, just as long as you don't call it a AR-15. They did lose their suit over the use of M4 though.

 

[Murphy4570]

Call it an M4gery if you want then.

 

[jim243]

The name "AR-15" is a Colt registered trademark, which refers only to the semi-automatic rifle made by Colt.

Not trying to argue the point, but the Trademark was Armilite Rifle Corp's (that's what AR stands for) and they sold the rights to the AR to Colt. Colt never invented anything in their life, if it wasn't for John Browning and his designs, there would not be a Colt Corp today. There may not be one tomorrow since the Gov can contract with whomever they want for the M-4. FNH USA is now makeing the AR-16 and tomorrow who knows DD maybe making the M-4.

Jim

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I think the point people are trying to make is not that the rifles aren't made by Colt (many people refer to BCM, Spikes, etc built rifles as AR-15s). The term AR-15 has become a catach-all phrase for semi auto M16/M4 clones and that's fine. The reason people make a stink about the Ruger SR556, the Stag model 8, and the HK-416 is that they contain significant design changes from AR-15s. Most notably the use of a short-stroke gas piston system instead of the AR-15 direct impingement gas system. Some of those rifles, like the HK-416 have other internal differences from an AR-15 and only superficially externally appear to be like AR-15s (the intent being to keep the manual or arms the same between the platforms).

So there's a distinct difference between your examples of calling a WASR-10 an AKM pattern rifle. The difference between the WASR-10 and an AKM is basically the removal of the full-auto receiver and fire control group, but other systems remaining identical. This would be the same as the difference between a Stag Model 2/Colt 6920/etc and the M4. No one would have a problem calling those AR-15s or AR-15 pattern rifles.

The Stag Model 8, the HK-416 (which is the select-fire version btw), and the Ruger SR556 generally have the same manual of arms as an AR-15 rifle but no the same design. It'd be kind of like calling one of those GSG .22lr AK looking rifles an AK pattern rifle despite the fact that internally there is little similarity.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

"...useless posts telling people they're wrong"

How about if weirdos stop wasting people's time with misinformation?

Talk about the cart leading the horse - it's the dork who can't be bothered to be accurate about the firearm when asking advice (or preaching from on high) that wastes time.

Additionally, there are particulars aspects of individual manufacturers which are sometimes pertinent - for example the cast bolt of a SR-556 or the fluting on a Les Baer Custom AR carrier.

Even the PO's own reference to the H&K 416 points out his inability to recognize the significance of knowing what one is talking about. He clearly meant the MR556 as it is more directly related to the subject and example guns but either doesn't know the difference, doesn't care or is just another bassement dweller looking to pick silly fights.

 

[Walking Dead]

What if it's not a Colt or an Armilite and it's chambered in 9mm Luger I mean parabelum? What does that make it?

 

[45_auto]

Colt never invented anything in their life, if it wasn't for John Browning and his designs, there would not be a Colt Corp today.

See how much you can learn on the internet? All those stupid historians (and the US Patent office) were under the impression that back in the 1800's Sam Colt invented some kind of shooting thing with a part in the middle that turns in circles (a "revolver", or something like that).

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Jy0qAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bNI_AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[MistWolf]

I do not know if AR-15 is trademarked by anyone, but I notice other AR makers avoid using it.

M4 is not a registered trademark, we don't need to resort to M4gery.
AR-10 is trademarked by Armamlite
M1A by Springfield
Model 700 by Remington
Model 70 by Ruger
..and so on. Companies are very protective of their trademarks. Allowing them to become common usage can cost them millions of dollars. Many laymen wonder why others get particular about the meaning of words. It's because those who know about such things, like lawyers, engineers, technicians, PR people, writers, photographers, programmers politicians and so on, make their living by words and what they mean. Professionals are judged and critically so by the language they use. If that professional does not know the difference between a clip and a magazine, it says there is a gap in their knowledge on the subject. If I use language for aviator and hospital oxygen interchangeably, the Director of Maintenance will be rightfully concerned I may not have the required knowledge and experience to work on aircraft for an air ambulance service.

The correct meaning of words can mean a life. Just because you do not know what you do not know about the importance of the correct use of words, it doesn't mean that it is unimportant or just somebody getting their knickers in a knot

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I believe you can use the prefix of AR but it makes a difference on what you use after it. colt bought the ar15 but soon after armalite came out with the ar18.

Now for me if some one says I want a ar15 I just ask what company are they looking at. I think its just become a classification either right or wrong or that type of rifle.

I agree with the OP as it all should be just lumped in or just call it the model it is.

what do folks think the new piston type rifle should be called?

Is it based on a piston driven soviet design or the AR type from the 1960's so what do we call them.

If someone say to me I have a ar made by dpms or colt or what ever I get a pretty clear picture in my head what it is.

Also if someone say I have a H&K 416 or a sig 556 I also know what they are talking about.

How about the ones who think the piston driven ar type rifle is a new design.

Don't be to upset some folks just like to argue.

 

[dprice3844444]

model 70 is winchester,ruger is 77

 

[ugaarguy]

I am so tired of having someone tell me that a Ruger SR556, Stag model 8, H&K 416, and others are not AR-15s. So forever more I think we should call them AR pattern rifles. It would get get rid of all of the useless posts telling people they are wrong. It would also get rid of all the useless posts of people defending their previous posts. We say this for AKM copys so it should work for AR-15s. This is The High Road, not the "argue every little thing of minimal importance road". I won't be surprised if someone argues with this either.

When someone yanks the piston out of an AK, and switches it to DI to improve accuracy, but doesn't bother to tighten the tolerances, and still calls it an AKM pattern rifle your arguement will make sense.

Rather than complaining that more knowledgeable folks diasgree with you, and starting a thread to whine about it, perhaps you should spend your time learing how the weapons function internally rather than assuming they're the same based on aesthetics.

A polish or romanian AKM is not a REAL russian AK-47. They look like an ak-47 but they are made differently and manufactured by someone else or some other country, not the izhmash factory in russia. They are ak pattern rifles.

Without using any external references, do you even the difference between an AK-47 and an AKM?

 

[JustinJ]

Its my experience that people often resort to arguing semantics when they have no valid points to make in support of their position.

 

[mastiffhound]

Sorry, had a brain fart, I made a mistake. MR556 I know. Like a bushmaster acr is for civilians and a remington acr is the military version. I know and I'm not trying to pick a silly fight either. I posted originally to help rid threads of inflammatory posts calling people names, telling them they are stupid, or generally being offensive. I can see that was a mistake.

I thought it would make conveying general AR knowledge easier. I thought that instead of telling someone that bought a del-ton, spikes, bcm, stag model 8, palmetto state, bushmaster's piston gun, or any other manufacturer other than colt or noveske to sell their rifle when all they asked was how to install a timney trigger in their AR was ridiculous. I will leave it alone then, this is obviously angering the collective.

 

[taliv]

good grief