meanmrmustard
Member
And, is that a problem? We've been regaled as to why some ARs are better than others and why. I'm stating the same. If it annoys you, there are other threads going.
"TOP Tier" AR15
- Thread starter Archangel14
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The only rifle that never breaks down or needs to have parts replaced is a rifle that doesn't get used, no matter what brand you start with.
What you get with a top tier AR is likely to be a rifle built with parts that will last longer and perform better. If you're looking for a rifle to buy, ask yourself the question of what you're going to be doing with that rifle and then make an assessment of what is going to be good enough for you.
Some don't want to spend more money than they need to. Some are willing to spend more money for either the pride of ownership or the peace of mind that comes along with buying something better than "good enough." Then there are those that are willing to spend the money to buy top tier stuff because it absolutely, positively has to work.
So, the question still remains. What is good enough? I can't answer that for anyone other than myself. As has been mentioned, there is no quantifiable data that clearly states that "lesser" rifles break down or fail more than "better" rifles.
I know that I think what I think, after having had to work on more ARs that I can remember for various reasons, because of my personal experiences.
Sure there are budget priced rifles that will, for some undetermined length of time, operate the way they're supposed to; but when the time comes to start replacing parts, what you are going to replace those parts with?
You can go through the threads on this site alone. If you need to buy a replacement bolt, what are you going to buy? Are you going to buy one that is used in a budget rifle or are you going to try to find something that is machined of milspec carpenter steel that's been shot peened for strength and magnetic particle inspected with a strong tool steel extractor?
If you need to replace the barrel, are you going to replace it with a budget barrel of 4140 steel or are you going to replace it with the best barrel that you can get? Maybe something of a higher grade steel that is hammer forged, high pressure tested and MPI with a good chrome lining?
Maybe some guys are looking at the way of choosing which rifle to buy back a$$wards. Maybe a good way to go about it is to figure out what ingredients you want and buy a rifle made of those ingredients.
When I was really into ARs there were particular parts that I looked for because they will last longer. In some cases, a lot longer.
For a non precision rifle, I want milspec steel and prefer chrome lined. I want a barrel that is coated in the gas block area. Hammer forged barrels are nice. I really like the barrels from Bravo Company and Daniel Defense, although these brands aren't the only good barrels out there. I wouldn't get overly excited about things like 5r rifling and/or any special coatings. Neither are new. In fact, both have been around for a while and neither will turn a turd into a diamond.
A barrel is all about the steel and the manufacturing process. I'm not talking about being able to shoot sub MOA. Really, I've seen most barrels be able to accomplish this, given the right ammo. The real test of the quality of a barrel is how it behaves under stress. If you really want to see what a barrel can do, put 50 rounds through it quickly and get it good and hot and then shoot groups with it. This is when you'll see the difference between a good barrel and a lesser barrel.
I want a full auto bolt carrier group that's been chromed in the right places and made of milspec or better steel. The BCG is the hardest working part of the rifle.
I also want a milspec or better trigger. Milspec triggers have been hardened to a specified depth and, although they may not produce the best feel in the world, they will be more reliable.
Lastly, I really don't know if there is even a milspec on the small parts, but I buy things like springs, rings and pins from vendors that build milspec rifles. They are made from the proper materials and are the proper size. I get my stuff from Bravo Company and I say that they are made of the proper materials and are of the proper size because I've never had any problems with them.
If you don't think this last thing is important, you can do a search here on THR and see the number of threads of guys asking why their AR won't eject, or the trigger won't reset, or the bolt catch doesn't work the way it's supposed to, or the trigger pins are walking, etc.
For those guys arguing that the top tier rifles (and what makes those rifles top tier) aren't worth the cost or that top tier status isn't worth it because something made of budget parts is just as good, I have to ask...do any of you guys have any hard data?
Do any of you guys have something like a Smith and Wesson Sport, Stag or Rock River with 5000 rounds or 10000 rounds through it? Without having been cleaned? Have any of you ever shot an AR to a point where you NEEDED to change the bolt? Cam pin? Or even the rings? I'm asking because if you haven't, you haven't shot the rifle enough to be able to tell anything from personal experience.
I'm not trying to get harsh, but I'm hearing a lot of claims like "my rifle has never given me any trouble" or "it's a tack driver" or "I run it hard." Those statements are also pretty vague.
What you get with a top tier AR is likely to be a rifle built with parts that will last longer and perform better. If you're looking for a rifle to buy, ask yourself the question of what you're going to be doing with that rifle and then make an assessment of what is going to be good enough for you.
Some don't want to spend more money than they need to. Some are willing to spend more money for either the pride of ownership or the peace of mind that comes along with buying something better than "good enough." Then there are those that are willing to spend the money to buy top tier stuff because it absolutely, positively has to work.
So, the question still remains. What is good enough? I can't answer that for anyone other than myself. As has been mentioned, there is no quantifiable data that clearly states that "lesser" rifles break down or fail more than "better" rifles.
I know that I think what I think, after having had to work on more ARs that I can remember for various reasons, because of my personal experiences.
Sure there are budget priced rifles that will, for some undetermined length of time, operate the way they're supposed to; but when the time comes to start replacing parts, what you are going to replace those parts with?
You can go through the threads on this site alone. If you need to buy a replacement bolt, what are you going to buy? Are you going to buy one that is used in a budget rifle or are you going to try to find something that is machined of milspec carpenter steel that's been shot peened for strength and magnetic particle inspected with a strong tool steel extractor?
If you need to replace the barrel, are you going to replace it with a budget barrel of 4140 steel or are you going to replace it with the best barrel that you can get? Maybe something of a higher grade steel that is hammer forged, high pressure tested and MPI with a good chrome lining?
Maybe some guys are looking at the way of choosing which rifle to buy back a$$wards. Maybe a good way to go about it is to figure out what ingredients you want and buy a rifle made of those ingredients.
When I was really into ARs there were particular parts that I looked for because they will last longer. In some cases, a lot longer.
For a non precision rifle, I want milspec steel and prefer chrome lined. I want a barrel that is coated in the gas block area. Hammer forged barrels are nice. I really like the barrels from Bravo Company and Daniel Defense, although these brands aren't the only good barrels out there. I wouldn't get overly excited about things like 5r rifling and/or any special coatings. Neither are new. In fact, both have been around for a while and neither will turn a turd into a diamond.
A barrel is all about the steel and the manufacturing process. I'm not talking about being able to shoot sub MOA. Really, I've seen most barrels be able to accomplish this, given the right ammo. The real test of the quality of a barrel is how it behaves under stress. If you really want to see what a barrel can do, put 50 rounds through it quickly and get it good and hot and then shoot groups with it. This is when you'll see the difference between a good barrel and a lesser barrel.
I want a full auto bolt carrier group that's been chromed in the right places and made of milspec or better steel. The BCG is the hardest working part of the rifle.
I also want a milspec or better trigger. Milspec triggers have been hardened to a specified depth and, although they may not produce the best feel in the world, they will be more reliable.
Lastly, I really don't know if there is even a milspec on the small parts, but I buy things like springs, rings and pins from vendors that build milspec rifles. They are made from the proper materials and are the proper size. I get my stuff from Bravo Company and I say that they are made of the proper materials and are of the proper size because I've never had any problems with them.
If you don't think this last thing is important, you can do a search here on THR and see the number of threads of guys asking why their AR won't eject, or the trigger won't reset, or the bolt catch doesn't work the way it's supposed to, or the trigger pins are walking, etc.
For those guys arguing that the top tier rifles (and what makes those rifles top tier) aren't worth the cost or that top tier status isn't worth it because something made of budget parts is just as good, I have to ask...do any of you guys have any hard data?
Do any of you guys have something like a Smith and Wesson Sport, Stag or Rock River with 5000 rounds or 10000 rounds through it? Without having been cleaned? Have any of you ever shot an AR to a point where you NEEDED to change the bolt? Cam pin? Or even the rings? I'm asking because if you haven't, you haven't shot the rifle enough to be able to tell anything from personal experience.
I'm not trying to get harsh, but I'm hearing a lot of claims like "my rifle has never given me any trouble" or "it's a tack driver" or "I run it hard." Those statements are also pretty vague.
meanmrmustard
Member
Sadly, I don't run my rifles like I hate them. Im a neat freak. So, regardless of what I spent on a "junk" Sport, or a ritzy rifle costing twice, they'd never see that many rounds without cleaning. At least, not an AR. Most I've gone is something like 600 rounds, and it killed me to do that. In the field, I'd be screwed with an AR, because I'd be shot or captured while I'm busy picking crud out of the barrel extension.
So, no. Can't say I know personally that a cheaper rifle wouldn't malfunction with that round count. Also, can't say a more expensive, fully mil spec AR would either, as I've not run one that far too. So, if I can't differentiate based on personal experience which is truly better because of not having run 10000 rounds through either without cleaning, then neither is a true winner. To be fair, as per your post, instances of frugality with cleaning and a high round count in btween without failures is also pretty vague. I dare say, hearsay.
My "addlib favorite rifle" runs 10000 rounds without cleaning, sans malfunction.
Pretty vague, indeed.
So, no. Can't say I know personally that a cheaper rifle wouldn't malfunction with that round count. Also, can't say a more expensive, fully mil spec AR would either, as I've not run one that far too. So, if I can't differentiate based on personal experience which is truly better because of not having run 10000 rounds through either without cleaning, then neither is a true winner. To be fair, as per your post, instances of frugality with cleaning and a high round count in btween without failures is also pretty vague. I dare say, hearsay.
My "addlib favorite rifle" runs 10000 rounds without cleaning, sans malfunction.
Pretty vague, indeed.
meanmrmustard
Member
Just saying what exactly? You bolded a completely open ended statement. Once again, fact is proven. Youve proved nothing.
If I had to choose, HAD to, I'd buy a LaRue. I like what I've owned. Ill shut up now, so this thing doesn't snowball. I live life pinky down, and judge based on ability, not price tag. That's all.
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The fact is that you are the one coming into these threads throwing around the fanboy tag when people say top tier rifles like Colt are consistently a higher quality. That's a fact. You might use innuendo and implication in order to maintain a semi-plausible deniability as you do not explicitly state it flat out, but it's certainly there.
At any rate I think your personal experience has been well documented within this particular thread, so anybody reading or who searches later will be informed of your experience.
At any rate I think your personal experience has been well documented within this particular thread, so anybody reading or who searches later will be informed of your experience.
Okay, so what is missing from this list
16" CMV 4150 M4 profile barrel, 5.56mm 1:7 twist, HP & MPI tested. A2 flash hider
Carbine-length gas port
M4 feed ramps
Taper-pinned, f-marked front sight post
Forged aluminum 7075-T6 flat top upper, hard coat anodized, machined T-marks
Carpenter 168 bolt, shot peened, MPI and HPT. Staked gas key
Full-auto BCG parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside
Forged 7075-T6 lower, black hardcoat anoized per MIL-8625 Type 3 Class 2
Mil spec size buffer tub, 6-position, staked castle nut
Just let me know if there is anything I oughta upgrade. Seriously I don't want to worry about things breaking. :/
16" CMV 4150 M4 profile barrel, 5.56mm 1:7 twist, HP & MPI tested. A2 flash hider
Carbine-length gas port
M4 feed ramps
Taper-pinned, f-marked front sight post
Forged aluminum 7075-T6 flat top upper, hard coat anodized, machined T-marks
Carpenter 168 bolt, shot peened, MPI and HPT. Staked gas key
Full-auto BCG parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside
Forged 7075-T6 lower, black hardcoat anoized per MIL-8625 Type 3 Class 2
Mil spec size buffer tub, 6-position, staked castle nut
Just let me know if there is anything I oughta upgrade. Seriously I don't want to worry about things breaking. :/
meanmrmustard
Member
Higher quality? No. Worse customer service on top of that. Add that to my anti Colt post count.
And yes, search my posts, you'll see that for everyone where I say boo about Colt, you come running. That's not innuendo, that's fact.
Not very high road to take the fight to the arguer.
Yes, actually.
meanmrmustard
Member
Ok. If you say so.
meanmrmustard
Member
I'm always good, always.
I guess I'll go where angels fear to tread. I am waiting on my first AR. I've had plenty of chances to get one but have not felt the love for one like alot of guys have. I have always been a wood and blued steel guy but have felt the angst to get one like when the angst hit alot of people 4 years ago. I was going to buy an LWRC M6IC because they are in the top tier and are worth the money. I am old enough now to have extra money to indulge myself and also to live by "pay once, cry once." I decided to change my mind because I found a Kimber 84M in 257 Roberts that said buy me. She's so purty!!! So I then had a talk with myself about needing a top tier piston gun when a top tier DI gun would do just as well for me. I'm not an LEO or any operator that needs a top tier gun to do his job with but I do want this rifle to protect my family's life as well as my own. So I am sparing no expense in getting this thing right the first time. I'm waiting for a LaRue PredatAR in 556 with a 16" barrel. For my purposes the LWRC was overkill but what a great product. I was able to run two of them for a few hours one day which prompted me to order one in the first place. In the end it was a win/win for me as I got two rifles I really wanted/needed for the price of the LWRC.
I hear you.
Here's mine in a bit of a "one of these does not belong" shot (my complete rifle lineup) (AR has since been accessorized, this was right after I got it)
If you're serious, that looks like a nice list. Put a couple thousand rounds through it and make sure that it's solid. As for not having to worry about things breaking, sorry. Like I said above, all rifles will need parts replaced, sooner or later. A list like yours helps to ensure that it's likely to be later than sooner. If you want some extra insurance that you won't be stuck someplace, get a spare bolt with cam pin and firing pin retainer. A spare bolt will cover most of what usually goes wrong on an AR. Rings, extractor, extractor spring, ejector/spring are all there and will take less than a minute to replace.
If you are the paranoid type, like I am, you can also keep a set of springs and pins for your FCG.
mustang, I think you made the right choice. Two is often better than one and Kimber makes some beautiful rifles. As for the piston gun, both pistons and DIs have their pros and cons. My only real aversion to pistons is that fact that there is no standardized system and availability of parts may be a problem.
I was serious. Thanks for the tips. I will definitely look into getting spare springs/pins for the FCG. As for the bolt....actually, what I ended up doing was ordering another AR. :banghead: I couldn't resist.
I originally just wanted to upgrade my grip and stock to Magpul...then figured, why not just order another receiver, to have handy, and while I am at it order another BCG, then I thought, a middy would be nice, may as well spend a few more bucks and get a whole barreled upper...now I have 2 AR's, one a middy with heavy barrel and one with M4 gov't profile and standard grips/stock. But the side-benefit is having some spare parts, assuming they don't go down simultaneously...
Quentin
Member
Actually we should have been using the term hypothesis not theory. Theory is concrete evidence in science, such as the Theory of Evolution. A well-substantiated body of research and facts that explain scientific observations. Theories are full of facts, hypotheses are explanations that have not yet been proven.
ETA:
In my mind I'm convinced the Tier 1 ARs are better and worth the extra cost, but that's only a hypothesis on my part.
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In the scientific world, yes. Most people in most conversation don't use theory the way the scientific community would use when talking about something like the theory of gravity or what have you.
But it would be good to use consistent definitions. Hypothesis it is.
But it would be good to use consistent definitions. Hypothesis it is.
holden, it sounds like you caught the disease. I know how it feels. There was a time when it seemed that every time I went to the range, they had a Spike's Tactical lower with a different color filled roll mark that I just had to have. Of course, you understand that you can't just have a lower sitting there doing nothing.
Thank goodness that wore off. In any case, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent; but if you get the upgrade bug, be sure to check out the Magpul UBR stocks. Yes, they are expensive. Yes, they are on the heavy side; but they are rock solid and the weight actually lends a better sense of balance to the rifle. It's actually easier to carry unslung. The good part about it is that it's not likely to need to be replaced.
Thank goodness that wore off. In any case, I don't want to get too far off on a tangent; but if you get the upgrade bug, be sure to check out the Magpul UBR stocks. Yes, they are expensive. Yes, they are on the heavy side; but they are rock solid and the weight actually lends a better sense of balance to the rifle. It's actually easier to carry unslung. The good part about it is that it's not likely to need to be replaced.
meanmrmustard
Member
I think ill use myth. Or urban legend.
I like the part about a DI gun that you can replace parts with any other to keep it running where as with a piston there are a number of proprietary parts. Draw back to the Larue is waiting and waiting. Oh well good thing I have many guns to play with till then.
JustinJ
Member
Milspec standards do not ensure every Colt rifle will be more reliable or durable than a Stag, or other non-milspec rifle. What it means is that if you have 1,000 Colts and 1,000 Stags the incidence of failures and breakages will be lower with the milspec Colts. HP/MPI testing a bolt does not make it a better bolt. It simply weeds out defective ones. Also, certain materials tend to be more durable than others. So again, the likelihood of issues will differ. Milspec can not guarantee no issues. It simply reduces their probability. Anecdotal experiences mean nothing by themselves.
So yes, a non-milspec AR may serve you great for thousands of rounds but the chances of it doing so are simply lower than with a milspec. That is all.
So yes, a non-milspec AR may serve you great for thousands of rounds but the chances of it doing so are simply lower than with a milspec. That is all.
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