CoRoMo
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Dang those unskilled average guys! They'll never learn.
Full Auto Ownership
- Thread starter MagnumDweeb
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freakshow10mm
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Yes, but why would they need to buy one? Just make it.
Don't know it's hotly contested. There is no law preventing it, there is no transfer being taken place.
So buy pre 86 samples. A bit more than post 86, but less than transferable.
Most guns are fairly easy to convert. H&K guns (overrated IMO) are a bitch if you work on the trigger packs, but it can be done. Some require more machining than others. It's relatively simple. Spend $2-3 grand on a mill and lathe, get a cash machinist to do stuff on the side for you if you can't yourself.
If you go this route, I suggest being a Class 2. You can still do the rental gig, but as a Class 2 you can build SBR and SBS, which those two (plus suppressors) are the top NFA weapons collectors buy. I'm starting another location for my company in my homestate of Wisconsin and get my 07/02 there too. In WI, as a Class 2 I can make SBR and SBS. In MI I can't. Everything else will be in Upper Michigan.
"hotly contested"
means just that. There was no law preventing the Akins Acclerator either. Nor some of the work that Len Savage did. But how much money did each of them spend fighting ATF?
thanks, but no thanks. I predict an "incident" with a full auto that will make the whole issue of rentals a moot point. I'm surprised that the Westfield Sportsmen's Club incident didn't result in national legistlation. It's only a matter of time, imho. And of course the folks connected with that incident have spent tons of dollars defending themselves.
means just that. There was no law preventing the Akins Acclerator either. Nor some of the work that Len Savage did. But how much money did each of them spend fighting ATF?
thanks, but no thanks. I predict an "incident" with a full auto that will make the whole issue of rentals a moot point. I'm surprised that the Westfield Sportsmen's Club incident didn't result in national legistlation. It's only a matter of time, imho. And of course the folks connected with that incident have spent tons of dollars defending themselves.
TooTaxed
Member
Over my 72 years I've fired a lot of full auto...civilian as well as military. Owned a Japanese Model 96 LMG as a kid on Okinawa, a Sten Mk II in the 1960s, in Vietnam personally owned a MAT 49 SMG (excellent, IMHO the best French gun ever made), AK-47, and Browning A-4 tripod-mount gun...have fired UZIs, MACs, and lots of others. While in Special Forces fired FA weapons from half a dozen countries in research to determine the best weapon for house-to-house street fighting. (Interestingly, the 12-ga shotgun firing #1 buck shot...NOT 00 or 0 shells!...was the clear winner over the FA!
)
Three FA guns stand out in my memories...the Jap M-96 LMG, the Sterling SMG (the only SMG I've found to be controllable with one hand), and the M-16 with 3-shot burst capability. If I were to have one now, I'd choose the M-16 in A4 carbine configuration with 3-round burst capability.
)Three FA guns stand out in my memories...the Jap M-96 LMG, the Sterling SMG (the only SMG I've found to be controllable with one hand), and the M-16 with 3-shot burst capability. If I were to have one now, I'd choose the M-16 in A4 carbine configuration with 3-round burst capability.
freakshow10mm
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The terminal performance of the #1 buckshot leads me to wonder why people still use OO buck.
FROGO207
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Hi all. I own a MP 40 and a M 10 in 45 ACP. Both are fun to shoot in the beginning but as the rounds add up- really expensive. All my friends want to tear up the hillside behind my house with it but the light bulb came on one day when it only took about half an hour to fill and empty about 1/2 a five gallon bucket of 45 hardball. Now I will take one out for fun with friends and to practice keeping accurate. Lots of cash invested for what are almost safe queens.
If I get rid of them the fear is that someday a common citizen will not be able to own a SMG or MG legally. I will think more about it after I reload that latest five gallon bucket of 9 MM brass (primers willing) and use my bullet hose to tear up the hillside one more time!
really expensive. All my friends want to tear up the hillside behind my house with it but the light bulb came on one day when it only took about half an hour to fill and empty about 1/2 a five gallon bucket of 45 hardball. Now I will take one out for fun with friends and to practice keeping accurate. Lots of cash invested for what are almost safe queens. If I get rid of them the fear is that someday a common citizen will not be able to own a SMG or MG legally. I will think more about it after I reload that latest five gallon bucket of 9 MM brass (primers willing) and use my bullet hose to tear up the hillside one more time!
FROGO207
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Freakshow10MM
I think it is the BIG holes when they do connect with the target.
I think it is the BIG holes when they do connect with the target.
TooTaxed
Member
Re Post #80 above:
I think I should elaborate a bit why the shotgun with #1 buck won out over the FA guns for street fighting.
Fairly simple...the 12-ga #1 buck shells have 16 ea 30-cal balls, while the 00 buck has only 9 large balls. When firing across a street, I could take out an entire door or window with the fairly dense pattern of the #1s...equivalent of most of a SMG magazine...but instantaneous. The larger buckshot had too few pellets to ensure a hit...too much spread. We found a single #1 shell to be roughly the effective equivalent of three 00 buck shells.
Also, the SMG and rifle rounds had too much penetration through light walls...likely to result in civilian casualties. It's important to take out the "bad guys"...but no one else. Makes you very unpopular with the citizenry...they don't like having their women and children damaged...
I think I should elaborate a bit why the shotgun with #1 buck won out over the FA guns for street fighting.
Fairly simple...the 12-ga #1 buck shells have 16 ea 30-cal balls, while the 00 buck has only 9 large balls. When firing across a street, I could take out an entire door or window with the fairly dense pattern of the #1s...equivalent of most of a SMG magazine...but instantaneous. The larger buckshot had too few pellets to ensure a hit...too much spread. We found a single #1 shell to be roughly the effective equivalent of three 00 buck shells.
Also, the SMG and rifle rounds had too much penetration through light walls...likely to result in civilian casualties. It's important to take out the "bad guys"...but no one else. Makes you very unpopular with the citizenry...they don't like having their women and children damaged...
freakshow10mm
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That and the IWBA endorses and recommends #1 buckshot as the superior buckshot size for an antipersonnel shotgun.
TooTaxed
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FREAKSHOW, I hope they did that partially on the basis of our 1960's tests! Our findings surprised quite a few people at the time. 'Way back then the Army didn't even have #1 buck in their issue stocks...00 buck was it!
freakshow10mm
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That's been ongoing since the IWBA was created. My company is the only ammunition manufacturer to offer a #1 buckshot load in the 20ga.
AmEngRifles
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The MG ponderings
In the spirit of the original post, and the ponderings of FA ownership, here are my thoughts.
They are beyond my financial ability at this time, especially in the downturn days. Pretty to look at and ponder, but unobtainable right now.
Kind of like owning a really boss muscle car. When we were younger, who would have thought these cars would become so expensive and collectible? Lots of money now. Expensive to operate. I can't afford them. So I see them at shows, in museums and on television and relive the glory days. At 8 to 10 mpg, who would really be able to operate one as a daily driver anymore? Driving an old Datsun 280 ZX Turbo gets me close, and without breaking the bank.
Back to guns. In that vacuum, a SA rifle or shotgun seems to get me pretty close for a LOT less money. The SA rate of fire conserves ammo sufficiently, that I can afford a good number of practice sessions each year. They are the "ALMOST" guns, like my 1981 Turbo ZX. They have the look and some of the performance, but in the working class financial realm.
I have always looked at guns, magazines, ammo as a financial equation. I am constantly running the numbers on ammo prices, magazine prices (based on round count to cost) and rifle prices, (what is the most economical bullet thrower in a certain caliber?) that work within my budget. Most FA just have no real correlation with their cost anymore. They are out of the "usable" commodity market and into the "financial investment" market. If I ever bought one, it would sit in a safe all the time. The only way I would shoot it would be if we were at war within US borders.
I would like to see them return to current manufacture and sale for civilian ownership. They may still require a register, but having them available for reasonable prices would be a welcome addition to the firearms fraternity. Plus, all those historical surplus weapons that have been destroyed just make me melancholic. Oh to have Bren guns for less than a grand! Happy Days have passed.
In the spirit of the original post, and the ponderings of FA ownership, here are my thoughts.
They are beyond my financial ability at this time, especially in the downturn days. Pretty to look at and ponder, but unobtainable right now.
Kind of like owning a really boss muscle car. When we were younger, who would have thought these cars would become so expensive and collectible? Lots of money now. Expensive to operate. I can't afford them. So I see them at shows, in museums and on television and relive the glory days. At 8 to 10 mpg, who would really be able to operate one as a daily driver anymore? Driving an old Datsun 280 ZX Turbo gets me close, and without breaking the bank.
Back to guns. In that vacuum, a SA rifle or shotgun seems to get me pretty close for a LOT less money. The SA rate of fire conserves ammo sufficiently, that I can afford a good number of practice sessions each year. They are the "ALMOST" guns, like my 1981 Turbo ZX. They have the look and some of the performance, but in the working class financial realm.
I have always looked at guns, magazines, ammo as a financial equation. I am constantly running the numbers on ammo prices, magazine prices (based on round count to cost) and rifle prices, (what is the most economical bullet thrower in a certain caliber?) that work within my budget. Most FA just have no real correlation with their cost anymore. They are out of the "usable" commodity market and into the "financial investment" market. If I ever bought one, it would sit in a safe all the time. The only way I would shoot it would be if we were at war within US borders.
I would like to see them return to current manufacture and sale for civilian ownership. They may still require a register, but having them available for reasonable prices would be a welcome addition to the firearms fraternity. Plus, all those historical surplus weapons that have been destroyed just make me melancholic. Oh to have Bren guns for less than a grand! Happy Days have passed.
The full auto market is an example of artificial scarcity dependent upon the whims of our lawmakers and lobbyists. There are negligible differences between a semi and full auto weapon of the same type, besides for the fact you can hold down the trigger for one and not the other. Many antiques, classic cars, etc. are examples of markets which contain true scarcity for their nostalgic and historical values, and are not made scarce by rules and regulations based on performance characteristics.
For any FA owners: How would you feel if the government lifted the ban on fully automatic weapons and the money you invested in them plummeted? Would you be happy that you can buy more FA guns cheaper, or sad that the ones you have won't be worth as much?
For any FA owners: How would you feel if the government lifted the ban on fully automatic weapons and the money you invested in them plummeted? Would you be happy that you can buy more FA guns cheaper, or sad that the ones you have won't be worth as much?
freakshow10mm
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I would love for my full auto collection to be worthless compared to the price paid. It isn't about money, it's about freedom.
If 922 (o) was stricken tomorrow, I'd be pumping out M16s for $600 shipped.
If 922 (o) was stricken tomorrow, I'd be pumping out M16s for $600 shipped.
ThrottleJockey72
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While I love the idea, and feel that the 2A actually means we should all be able to own ANY weapon that is avail. to the military, I don't think I want one. FA is fun, but VERY expensive. By expensive, I don't mean the cost of the gun either, I mean the cost of the ammo. Besides, who can carry enough ammo on their person to make FA a viable tactic in a battle scenario? Perhaps I could get on board with a "burst" type weapon that would fire 3 rounds at a time, but FA just hasn't much of a place in reality any more with the exception of belt fed deck mounted types of course. Bump firing can be equally fun from time to time, especially once you get good enough to do it from the shoulder
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