Full Auto Ownership

[Zoogster]

Both the NFA and GCA are unconstitutional. I'd like to see them both gone.

Considering the originaly purpose of the 2nd Amendment as stated in numerous letters and statements by America's founders was as a check against tyranny IE as a balance against LEO and Military of the government they were creating, such restrictions are beyond unconstitutional.

When the people cannot even possess the standard arm of the infantry of the armed services, the intended purpose of the 2nd is well beyond infringement.


I personaly simply enjoy shooting recreationaly and the ability to defend myself or others against criminals who will be armed. But I know without a doubt that was not the reason for the 2nd Amendment.

As stated By Jefferson, Madison, and many others multiple times, the purpose of the 2nd was to allow the people to rise up against tyranny, including a standing army (Federal LEO and the military) if necessary. In case the government they were creating became tyranical as thier former government had (the government of England.)

Tench Coxe sums it up well:

Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.

Civil Rulers, ie politicians may not have thier loyalty in the interests of the people, and may attempt to tyrannize.
Military forces which must be raised (they were also the federal level LEO of the day, so it includes both LEO and the military) to defend the country may simply impose martial law, take over government, or otherwise tyrannize or act on the orders of tyrants. As they have since before Julius Caesar conquered the Roman Republic with such a force.
The people are confirmed by the 2nd Amendment to keep arms for resistance.

More Tenche Coxe:

The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.

The intent was that the people, who as one are the militia of the United States, always are more powerful than any army which can be used against them. Or "tremendous and irresistable" compared to the military and LEO.

That was the intent and purpose of the 2nd, whether it became outdated in light of modernized instruments of war is a whole different argument. It is part of the Constitution, was the intent of the Constitution, and whether or not it has anything to do with why you choose to own arms it is the reason your ability to own them is protected under the Constitution.

A select fire AR is the lowliest weapon on the battlefield, yet even that is forbidden to the peasants.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

handful of G18s

I never said G18's,

And I do know about the import clause,

I'm saying 17's that were converted.

 

[30mag]

I would want a FA in .22LR.
That would be the funnest thing.
Maybe a hi-cap pistol? Or just a converted 10-22.

If I had to pick an NFA weapon, I'd go with a SBS, or an SBR.

And I mean an REAL SBR. Like a sawn off bolt-action .300 mag. A camp gun for hogs.

 

[rfurtkamp]

The funniest thing in my experience is the ubiquitous 'can't hit anything with FA' from folks who just shot one a few times at the range etc.

It's like saying that magically because you can shoot a handgun slowfire that you can suddenly become a proficient defensive shooter without practice.

And yeah, if you want NFA anything (machinegun, suppressor, etc.) you can get it legally if you want it bad enough - including moving, knowing your laws, saving money, etc.

It only hurts to buy once.

 

[Domina]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but
922(o) part 2A allows for transfer of machineguns by "a State, or a department, agency, or political subdividsion thereof".

Has this not been tested legally by having a local "political subdivision" of a State, or a State itself transfering machineguns to it's citizens? Seems like it ought to be tried. Need to rally a big pile of bucks and bollocks first though I suppose.

Seems like an ideal way for a state to enhance it's security AND make up a budget deficit.

 

[CoRoMo]

freakshow...

Can't guys like you, Zak Smith's company, Gemtech, etc. convert a Glock to FA for testing?

Are you guys allowed to use your FAs for things like renting them out at Knob Creek type events?

 

[TEDDY]

MG

I like the big ones[rifle caliber]I have shot most.hotckiss 8 mm,brownings,BAR
thompson,grease gun,reising.maxim MG 34/42 and lewis.and had a hotchkiss mK 1 in 303.the thompson is heavy,the brownings are good,the german were good.best I like is the lewis and reising. I can shoot them acurately.on subs drop the rear sling and step on it.the heavys give them short taps the lewis and BAR I can shoot single,also the hotchkiss.the grease gun is accurate if you know how to shoot it.I had access to thompson whenever I wanted it.and shot the browning any chance I got when we flew patrol or practice hops.the kingfisher was great.
the 68 law was not because of manufacturers it was senator Dodds after kennedy was shot.and the 34 was due to the gangs using thompsons,and BARS.after they were killed there really was no need for the law.

 

[ChCx2744]

I wouldn't mind owning a FA SBR (either AR or AK variant) with a suppressor.

 

[Zak Smith]

Hi,

A friend of mine runs a machinegun rental business. He's one of the guys you can rent a mags-worth of time on an M16 at the organized (or private) machinegun shoots. He holds a regular Type 1 FFL with a Class 3 SOT. My company has a Type 7 FFL with a Class 2 SOT. I believe we can do whatever a 1/3 can do, but I haven't looked into it as it's outside our business model.

 

[CleverNickname]

Yes, an 07/02 can do anything an 01/03 can, in addition to manufacturing.

 

[CoRoMo]

Thanks Zak.

I've been wondering about that. I didn't know if you guys were allowed to use your FAs for more than a few narrow purposes. Making money off of them via rental would be lucrative if you had the time (and desire) to put toward it. It seems like the ATF would be all too eager to restrict people from getting the 7/2 just to build FA toys to rent out under the guise of product R&D.

What stops a guy from becoming a title II manuf. just to get into the rental business.
Here's an even sillier thought: Couldn't freakshow10mm build a select fire machine pistol for R&D, but then go on to use that handgun for personal use, as his EDC?

 

[freakshow10mm]

My company is also an 07/02. We make ammunition and NFA weapons including suppressors, AOWs, and automatic weapons ranging from pistol conversions, M16 clones, and belt fed machine guns.

I can make a machine gun for any lawful purpose. I can use them for sale to LE and government, I can rent time with them for demo to range customers, I can use them for R&D for other products such as my ammunition and suppressors. The only thing I can't do is sell it to a non SOT or LE/gov customer.

I cannot use a post 86 machine gun for personal use. My MI CPL does not cover any weapon that is logged in my FFL bound book. Any machine gun my company makes is a Post 86 and is not transferable to an individual. All weapons in business inventory are to be transported in compliance with the FOPA of 1986, ie unloaded in a case. I cannot have a loaded weapon from business inventory covered under my CPL.

Currently my company is manufacturing and testing a conversion for the Glock pistol for full auto fire, which will be available for sale to SOTs and LE. Local demonstrations are always available.

An 07/02 can deal in NFA, manufacture in NFA, and very limited importation of NFA. Like Mr Smith, the NFA dealings are out of the scope of our business model as well. We don't stock transferable NFA weapons. If a local retail client would like to purchase a transferable NFA weapon, we can facilitate the transfer for a small fee. That is as close as we get to dealing in NFA. We are a manufacturer, we make stuff. There are currently 4 SOTs in the Upper Peninsula of MI. There's a 01/03 in Baraga County, Iron Mountain, and out east by Sault St Marie. My company is the first and only Class 2 manufacturer in the UP.

The practical uses for a machine pistol are very limited if at all present. For EDC by a civilian I see no applications. Of the full auto Glocks and SIGs I've made for LE clients, they are being used in rural areas where backup is 45 minutes a way at 100 miles an hour. It's seen as an all out hail mary tool when you need absolute maximum firepower when a rifle is not right there to grab.

Despite the widespread issue of fully automatic rifles for the military, I have yet to speak with a soldier issued an M4 or M16 that ever used the fun switch in actual combat. Belt fed weapons are made to lay down cover fire to allow riflemen to advance on the target and kill him. Of all the Youtube videos depicting combat troops during fire fights, notice how very few if not a single one of them fires a burst of full auto fire. Controlled, aimed single rounds.

 

[CoRoMo]

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.

I wonder if there are rental businesses who got there by going this route rather than tracking down and buying the expensive and limited pre '86 stuff. Seems only sensible. If a guy thought he could make a living in rentals, and enjoyed that type of thing, it'd be far cheaper to get started through a 7/2.

As far as practicality of FA, I think the LE use you described, applies equally to non-LEO. It would be as practical/useful to that rural LEO as it would to a rural civi.

 

[Zak Smith]

I wonder if there are rental businesses who got there by going this route rather than tracking down and buying the expensive and limited pre '86 stuff. Seems only sensible. If a guy thought he could make a living in rentals, and enjoyed that type of thing, it'd be far cheaper to get started through a 7/2.

Well, most of my friend's inventory is post-86 dealer samples. Way cheaper than transferable and easier than manufacturing them yourself, providing you can get the approproate LE demo letters.

-z

 

[CoRoMo]

This is where I'm beginning to get lost then. Your friend's company can purchase post '86 dealer samples? I didn't realize that was a possibility, but it makes sense. If he can buy/sell them to LE, he can rent them out if he wants. Sorta like a type 1 FFL renting out his inventory, to shoot in his indoor range like Rocky Mtn. Shooters Supply does. Makes sense. I guess he could take home a rifle, load 'er up and keep it under his bed too?

 

[Zak Smith]

That's kind of the point of the "sample" part of post 86 dealer samples. If LE or a gov't agency wants to demo/evaluate one, some Class 2/3 dealer has to be able to acquire one.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Difference between a Class 2 and Class 3 is a Class 3 needs a demo letter and permission to obtain the weapon. A Class 2 can just make one at will, file a Form 2 and be done with it. If I wanted to I can make and register an M16 machine gun in less than 15 minutes.

A Class 3 would have to get a LE agency to type up a demo request on letterhead, submit it to the Class 3, then the SOT would send that to a 02 or 03 along with the copy of the demo letter which would be sent to the NFA branch in WV to be approved. Then sent back to the demoing Class 3 along with the weapon so they can do a demo.

A Class 2 can get a phone call, spin up the Bridgeport for 5 minutes, spend 5 minutes refinishing the receiver and check the timing, engrave it, then 5 minutes to fill and fax the Form 2 to the ATF.

More expensive to be a Class 2 (ITAR and insurance) than a Class 3 but you can do everything a type 01 and 06 FFL can do plus make firearms and pay the SOT to make and deal in NFA. Only things left out is routine importation, destructive devices, and armor piercing ammo. One license covers 95% of all firearms activities.

 

[Zak Smith]

But if a Class 2 SOT wants to buy a dealer sample, they still need a demo letter.

 

[LoneStarWings]

The 1986 hughes amendment is horse dung and I can't figure out why reagan and the NRA felt it necessary to acquiesce to the gun control lobby and give in on MG manufacture in exchange for a few other changes.

 

[CoRoMo]

My original question was focused on the least expensive/resistive way for a guy to get into a small lot of FA guns to produce income in the rental market. I was surprised to learn that, that type of quest wouldn't be bound to pre '86 hardware, but it just seems like the ATF wouldn't just let this happen if the license/SOT is supposed to be couched for guys like you two.

I know a few guys that talk like they'd drop what they were doing, if they could get into this type of business, but it's all probably talk. For guys that would seriously delve into FA renting, it seems like there is little reason not to, except for initiative.

 

[Zak Smith]

Q. How do you make a small fortune in the gun industry?

A. Start with a big one.

 

[CoRoMo]

Well said.

 

[Tommygunn]

The 1986 hughes amendment is horse dung and I can't figure out why reagan and the NRA felt it necessary to acquiesce to the gun control lobby and give in on MG manufacture in exchange for a few other changes.

If I recall correctly the section that closed the NFA registry (preventing people from buying new FA guns) was added on literally at the 11th hour -- overnight -- in an underhanded way of further eroding the Constitution (note: the last is editorial content) and was thus snuck by into law. Yes, Reagan signed it.
Nobody's perfect ..... ...... ....

 

[NC-Mike]

With the NRA's blessing, IIRC.

 

[danbrew]

If he can buy/sell them to LE, he can rent them out if he wants

Uh, maybe. While some do it, it's a hotly contested debate whether this is a permitted use of a post 86 sales sample. I'd hate to plan an initiative around this assumption, make loads of investments, and then find out that ATF comes down on all the rental places.

Unless you were a Class II, you'd need post-sample LE letters for each item. Even if you were a Class II, the average guy probably doesn't have the skills to convert anything other than an AK or an M16 or so.