PercyShelley
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Future Weapons: Masada (Bushmaster buys Masada from Magpul)
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Hmmmm... let's hope that goes well. I've got to say that while Bushmaster generally has decent customer service, their QC hasn't impressed me and I don't really consider them in the same league as Magpul.
On the other hand, they have a huge resource in weapons knowledge and as part of the Cerebus empire, the Masada (now Bushmaster ACR) is now a real contender for replacement of the M4.
On the other hand, they have a huge resource in weapons knowledge and as part of the Cerebus empire, the Masada (now Bushmaster ACR) is now a real contender for replacement of the M4.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Hmm, the name "Masada" will be dropped. Interesting all the people yesterday that told me I was an idiot for suggesting it was a bad idea to use that name 
Bushmaster will be able to sell this in the international marketplace now rather than the niche market it was going to be in.
That's hard to say really since Magpul has never tried to support anything like this. It's not the same to say that good support of an aftermarket stock would continue with an entire line of rifles.
I'd say this is a very smart move for Magpul. Puts (presumably) lots of cash in their pocket and frees them up to do what they do best, the "thinking outside the box" design work that is their real strong suit.
Bushmaster will be able to sell this in the international marketplace now rather than the niche market it was going to be in.
That's hard to say really since Magpul has never tried to support anything like this. It's not the same to say that good support of an aftermarket stock would continue with an entire line of rifles.
I'd say this is a very smart move for Magpul. Puts (presumably) lots of cash in their pocket and frees them up to do what they do best, the "thinking outside the box" design work that is their real strong suit.
rc109a
Member
I read that link about ARFCOM in flames, I did not read that. Instead there was a lot of support for the merger. yes one or two thought they were sellouts, but overall the mood was pretty supportive.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That's the thing, everyone over there is calling it a "merger" and "partnership".
I didn't get that from the reading of the announcement. Sounded to me like it was a complete sale with no involvement by Magpul going forward.
armoredman
Member
$1400 or $2000, still too high. Oh well, for a lot less than that I can get my Mini to shoot straight.
Very nice rifle, and if I get a huge unexpected bonus/windfall/etc., I might look at buying one.
Very nice rifle, and if I get a huge unexpected bonus/windfall/etc., I might look at buying one.
Shadowangel
Member
I imagine Bushmaster will likely increase the price as well.
Fly320s
Member
No sale or merger, according to the press release on AR15.com.
It is a licensing agreement. Bushmaster pays Magpul a fee to use the design that Magpul came up with. Bushmaster then gets to put their name on it and sell it.
Sounds to me like Magpul still owns the rights and patents to the Masada/ACR.
It is a licensing agreement. Bushmaster pays Magpul a fee to use the design that Magpul came up with. Bushmaster then gets to put their name on it and sell it.
Sounds to me like Magpul still owns the rights and patents to the Masada/ACR.
Eightball
Member
$20 says the QC goes to crap. Every bushmaster I've ever heard of back home has been in a negative light--and their Customer Service has been cursed more than a few times.
I'm open to being proven wrong, here.
I was thinking of getting one to support Magpul's entry; now that it's "just another bushmaster".......meh. I will pass, for certain.
I'm open to being proven wrong, here.
I was thinking of getting one to support Magpul's entry; now that it's "just another bushmaster".......meh. I will pass, for certain.
romma
Member
Boy, I hear mostly great stuff about Bushmaster..
I love mine!
El Tejon
Member
Arfcom in flames? Geez, how can that forum get anymore distracting?
Good business decision. Magpul gets a capital injection and Bushmaster gets the benefit of having their name associated with a potential breakthrough design instead of AR clones and the end user gets a product on the market sooner because of Bushmaster's operating facilities already being on line. Win-win-win.
Good business decision. Magpul gets a capital injection and Bushmaster gets the benefit of having their name associated with a potential breakthrough design instead of AR clones and the end user gets a product on the market sooner because of Bushmaster's operating facilities already being on line. Win-win-win.
+1 to El Tejon. Magpul didn't develop the Masada because they were bored. And, their management has the foresight to realize that even if the Masada becomes THE GUN to have for civilians and then gets a .mil contract, they do not have the capacity to produce them by the boatload.
Remember the out-of-stock situations when the PMAG debuted? There are a lot more parts and suppliers that can put the whammy on the Masada supply.
Licensing is the way to go because if the product becomes a hit, they'll reap the rewards of that. Bushmaster/Remington/DPMS (Cerberus) is a huge entity in the industry and if they don't have the capacity to build 80,000 rifles a year, the Big Bad Dog has deep pockets.
Best of luck to Magpul, they deserve it.
Remember the out-of-stock situations when the PMAG debuted? There are a lot more parts and suppliers that can put the whammy on the Masada supply.
Licensing is the way to go because if the product becomes a hit, they'll reap the rewards of that. Bushmaster/Remington/DPMS (Cerberus) is a huge entity in the industry and if they don't have the capacity to build 80,000 rifles a year, the Big Bad Dog has deep pockets.
Best of luck to Magpul, they deserve it.
El Tejon
Member
Magpul was bored?!?!
"Ahh, mom, I'm bored."
"Stop moping around the house and go design a rifle."
"Ahhh, mommmm."
"Ahh, mom, I'm bored."
"Stop moping around the house and go design a rifle."
"Ahhh, mommmm."
While I'd love Magpul to build this in-house and be solely responsible for the QC, I recognize that:
1. Magpul has never built a mass-produced rifle. Doing this is not the same as mass producing something that is more simple, like a stock or a magazine.
2. They have had trouble getting simpler things (like stocks and magazines) to market on time. *cough*UBR*cough*
3. If Magpul wants the Masada to compete for .gov contracts, they need to demonstrate the ability to produce a large volume of rifles. Magpul does not have this capability. Bushmaster does.
Depending on how the licensing is set up, Magpul might very well be using Bushmaster to get their foot in the door (and make $$$ on each rifle Bushmaster sells), and then be able to produce their own rifle as well. I find it interesting that they're licensing the design to Bushie, but keeping the name for themselves. Since the name has been associated with the design for 2+ years in everyone's mind, I cannot imagine that this was done by accident.
My prediction is that once Magpul has the capital and has watched what Bushmaster has done, they will produce the Masada themselves, either alongside Bushmaster or in lieu of Bushmaster once/if the license they sold them expires.
Mike
1. Magpul has never built a mass-produced rifle. Doing this is not the same as mass producing something that is more simple, like a stock or a magazine.
2. They have had trouble getting simpler things (like stocks and magazines) to market on time. *cough*UBR*cough*
3. If Magpul wants the Masada to compete for .gov contracts, they need to demonstrate the ability to produce a large volume of rifles. Magpul does not have this capability. Bushmaster does.
Depending on how the licensing is set up, Magpul might very well be using Bushmaster to get their foot in the door (and make $$$ on each rifle Bushmaster sells), and then be able to produce their own rifle as well. I find it interesting that they're licensing the design to Bushie, but keeping the name for themselves. Since the name has been associated with the design for 2+ years in everyone's mind, I cannot imagine that this was done by accident.
My prediction is that once Magpul has the capital and has watched what Bushmaster has done, they will produce the Masada themselves, either alongside Bushmaster or in lieu of Bushmaster once/if the license they sold them expires.
Mike
It's expensive, but think about what you get. If you trick out an AR to do all of the things that the Magpul does, you'll be well over that price point- and even then the Masada can do things that the AR can never do.
It all depends on what you want your rifle to do. If you're happy with a Mini-14, you have no need to buy a Masada.
Mike
loki.fish
Member
I bought a Bushmaster back in 2004 a few months before the AWB sunset. Almost 4 years old and the only problems I've had with it have been magazine related. Magpul or Bushmaster doesn't matter, I still want one.
HorseSoldier
Member
MSRP?
They'll probably be up at $2000 or even higher when they first hit the market, but should settle down to something below $1400 if that's the case (barring some political impediment or other issues).
PercyShelley
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One of Magpul's strong points is making polymer, so that part of the rifle should be just fine (and by just fine I actually mean really, really good. Has anyone ever played with one of their followers in a magazine, trying to get it to bind? Can't be done.)
And if you want to really see the internet at it's best, check out some of the other threads there. Arfcom reminds me at times of a little place that Virgil is said to give tours of. Some people are not happy (decidedly non-THR sentiments expressed, be warned) that Magpul, which owns what, some lathes, a small factory or two, less than fifty employees and some injection molding machines will not be making the masada by the thousands.
In retrospect is seems obvious that they were going to have to take out huge loans to get the kind of equipment to make the product in bulk, or they were going to have to license it to somebody. And really, when you look out there, who else could you go to? Sure, there are other companies that would sacrifice their primary shareholders to get the rights to make the masada, but bushmaster actually has experience making things other than AR-15s.
As long as the QC is good, it's still a masada. Freeing Magpul to dream up other things is not a bad thing at all!
PercyShelley
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Speaking as someone who probably spends too much time at arfcom for my mental health, they actually mentioned that the charging handle was redesigned after SHOT '07, so that may or may not be Bushmaster's change. In fact, I would bet that it's not.
And the stocks are interchangeable, moreso, actually, than they are on AR-15s. Isn't the whole point of a modular design that you don't ultimately care what it shipped with?
And as for the proprietary magazines, if it's as good as the 5.56mm PMAG, that's really rather difficult to construe as a bad thing, even if it is true.
And the stocks are interchangeable, moreso, actually, than they are on AR-15s. Isn't the whole point of a modular design that you don't ultimately care what it shipped with?
And as for the proprietary magazines, if it's as good as the 5.56mm PMAG, that's really rather difficult to construe as a bad thing, even if it is true.
a proprietary mag would be stupid, unless it:
1. Is as strong/durable as an AK mag. Good luck.
2. Is drop-free capable.
3. Is not stupidly expensive.
#2 is a nice option. #1 and #3 probably won't happen. Since the whole point of the Masada is to be adaptable (you want 5.56? You want 7.62x39? You want 6.8? You want 5.45?), it makes the most sense to be able to switch your magwell, barrel and bolt setup and just go, using ammo and existing magazines. This changes that. However, if it is a Magpul mag...
The stock switch is just stupid, but I assume you can just change it out, right? That looks like a money-maker plain and simple. Who wants a stock that folds when you can have a stock that folds with adjustable riser height and LOP? Silliness.
Mike
1. Is as strong/durable as an AK mag. Good luck.
2. Is drop-free capable.
3. Is not stupidly expensive.
#2 is a nice option. #1 and #3 probably won't happen. Since the whole point of the Masada is to be adaptable (you want 5.56? You want 7.62x39? You want 6.8? You want 5.45?), it makes the most sense to be able to switch your magwell, barrel and bolt setup and just go, using ammo and existing magazines. This changes that. However, if it is a Magpul mag...
The stock switch is just stupid, but I assume you can just change it out, right? That looks like a money-maker plain and simple. Who wants a stock that folds when you can have a stock that folds with adjustable riser height and LOP? Silliness.
Mike
Cougfan2
Member
Who was it on another thread that called the futureweapons guy "the little whispering bald headed guy"?
That was priceless!
That was priceless!
All of a sudden I'm not very interested in the Masada. 
I wouldn't go so far as saying Bushmaster's rifles are junk because they are not, but I'm unimpressed with their offerings. I had the rear sight break on one of their uppers before I even shot it. The two complete lowers I bought from them have the worst trigger pulls of any of my ARs. The ones I built from Stag parts are much better. Not to mention the overall appearance of Bushmaster uppers are rougher, and obviously not as well put together as a Stag, and certainly not as well as a Colt.
This really shouldn't come as that much of a surprise. Magpul is a small company. I'm guessing they blinked when it came time to invest millions of dollars in resources for the tooling to produce the Masada. For them it probably would have been an "all in" situation with all their chips riding on the success of the Masada. Maybe they didn't want to risk that much.
Oh yeah, and this should answer everyone's question about what Cerebrus is doing buying up all these gun companies and their manufacturing capacity. Clearly they are looking at bigger and better things, like government contracts. Acquiring the rights to manufacture the Masada is likely a big piece of that puzzle.
I suppose in order to scratch my itch in the near future for something different than a standard AR, this leaves me looking towards either an XCR, or maybe a gas piston AR upper. Right now I think I'll just sit on the sidelines and be content with my "dirty" gas impingement ARs that run just fine, and see how this all shakes out.
I wouldn't go so far as saying Bushmaster's rifles are junk because they are not, but I'm unimpressed with their offerings. I had the rear sight break on one of their uppers before I even shot it. The two complete lowers I bought from them have the worst trigger pulls of any of my ARs. The ones I built from Stag parts are much better. Not to mention the overall appearance of Bushmaster uppers are rougher, and obviously not as well put together as a Stag, and certainly not as well as a Colt.
This really shouldn't come as that much of a surprise. Magpul is a small company. I'm guessing they blinked when it came time to invest millions of dollars in resources for the tooling to produce the Masada. For them it probably would have been an "all in" situation with all their chips riding on the success of the Masada. Maybe they didn't want to risk that much.
Oh yeah, and this should answer everyone's question about what Cerebrus is doing buying up all these gun companies and their manufacturing capacity. Clearly they are looking at bigger and better things, like government contracts. Acquiring the rights to manufacture the Masada is likely a big piece of that puzzle.
I suppose in order to scratch my itch in the near future for something different than a standard AR, this leaves me looking towards either an XCR, or maybe a gas piston AR upper. Right now I think I'll just sit on the sidelines and be content with my "dirty" gas impingement ARs that run just fine, and see how this all shakes out.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That probably makes sense. It also makes sense to think that the rifle will never be produced at all exactly as shown.
I work for a company that buys smaller firms regularly for their intellectual property more than anything else.
It's entirely possible that the end rifle will be a combination of many ideas both from inside Bushmaster/Cerebrus and from the outside like Magpul.
Who knows what it will end up looking like before the dust settles.
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RockyMtnTactical
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I've been attracted to the idea of the Masada from day one, and their partnership with Bushmaster looks like a good one. I am impressed. Cannot wait for the SHOT SHOW.
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