45/30-06OKIE
Member
I'd be interested in a 45 ACP version myself.
Gaps in the Firearms Market
- Thread starter giggitygiggity
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CapnMac
Member
Gaps?
Handguns are available in every diameter from 5 to 13mm.
Ok, so, there's not that many 8mm rounds, and 6, 7, and 11 mm are, possibly under-represented.
Does the world need an 8x20? Would it be better than 7.62french or 30sc? The Marketing would likely tell us it would be better than sliced bread and a first bicycle.
Look at all the rifle rounds from 6 to 8mm diameter. Look at all the rounds right around 7mm, each one has proponents and opponents.
Toss in action types, and it's a confused mess.
Handguns are available in every diameter from 5 to 13mm.
Ok, so, there's not that many 8mm rounds, and 6, 7, and 11 mm are, possibly under-represented.
Does the world need an 8x20? Would it be better than 7.62french or 30sc? The Marketing would likely tell us it would be better than sliced bread and a first bicycle.
Look at all the rifle rounds from 6 to 8mm diameter. Look at all the rounds right around 7mm, each one has proponents and opponents.
Toss in action types, and it's a confused mess.
foxmeadow
Member
Make a good movie that would be popular with nostalgia driven fans that features Tom Selleck and you'll sell a lot of repro rifles..
giggitygiggity
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Folks, please keep in mind that gaps are not limited to simply types of actions and calibers offered. Gaps can include features on firearms (optics cuts, rails, etc.), accessories or the ability to accessorize firearms, etc.
It amuses me how we have multiple mentions of certain products, but others say that it’s not a gap or that something else is close enough. I’d argue that if multiple people are interested in the same thing and there isn’t a good source for that item, then it is possibly a gap. Of course, manufacturers should conduct market research to determine whether the demand is small or widespread, but I’d caution posters to not dismiss the ideas of others as not being gaps, especially without providing non-anecdotal evidence to that point.
It amuses me how we have multiple mentions of certain products, but others say that it’s not a gap or that something else is close enough. I’d argue that if multiple people are interested in the same thing and there isn’t a good source for that item, then it is possibly a gap. Of course, manufacturers should conduct market research to determine whether the demand is small or widespread, but I’d caution posters to not dismiss the ideas of others as not being gaps, especially without providing non-anecdotal evidence to that point.
tark
Member
I tried to talk Les into chambering one of our 1911s in that caliber. He muttered obscenities that I cannot post. They were very colorful obscenities, however. Les is known for that. This happened about 12 years ago.
It's too bad. Les' 1911s have the thickest front straps in the industry. There is more than enough metal to accept the longer Tokarev ammo and magazines. But there are other considerations. Who would make the barrels? Fred Kart makes barrels for Les, ( He thinks nobody knows this and everybody knows it ) and I doubt Fred would have wanted to take on another caliber.
IF a bazillion rounds were to suddenly appear on the surplus market and the caliber made a comeback the only possibility for new guns would probably come from Turkey or the Philippines.
tark
Member
Saami pressure for the 9 is 35,000PSI, 38,500 for + P. For comparison the Super is loaded to 36,500PSI. The tok round is in that range. Your point is a good one. If a pistol can handle the 9mm it can handle a 7.62X25.
Capybara
Member
7.62x25 case pressure is 36,259 PSI
I personally think it's an underrated round with an interesting design and ballistics. I haven't reloaded it yet but I plan on it as soon as I shoot through my current PPU collection and have some brass to work with.
I personally think it's an underrated round with an interesting design and ballistics. I haven't reloaded it yet but I plan on it as soon as I shoot through my current PPU collection and have some brass to work with.
Jeff62
Member
It is underrated, in my humble. I have had hours of fun shooting my CZ-52 and working up reloads, some with pulled bullets from M1 carbine rounds.
I would love for Ruger? to build a pistol for that round. I will buy two if that helps prime the pump.
I know it is unlikely. I’m mildly facetious for the troll that can’t wait to jump.
I would love for Ruger? to build a pistol for that round. I will buy two if that helps prime the pump.
I know it is unlikely. I’m mildly facetious for the troll that can’t wait to jump.
Capybara
Member
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Wildcat rifle rounds were always touted as filling "gaps", there were P.O. Ackley's "Improved" cartridges. In revolvers there was the 357 Bain & Davis, to get 44 magnum performance out of a 357. The rebated head semiauto round to allow firing a larger caliber round in say a pistol chambered in 9MM.
Scout21
Member
A shotgun manufactured by Ruger. I've always been a fan of Ruger and I've been disappointed that they don't make shotguns. I'm aware that they made a double barrel back in the day, but there weren't all that many made.
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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A bolt action carbine with interchangeable barrels in 9MM/38 Super. One in 45 ACP/45 Winchester Magnum. How about one in 45 Long Colt/45 Schofield ?
Maybe it's a good thing they don't, then.
Funny thing about Ruger: I don't think of them as my favorite, but I have bought more Ruger guns than any other manufacturer. I think it's because I don't like their full-size pistols, but I like the LCP and I like their revolvers. When I think of my favorite pistol, I'm weighing between things like the Springfield XDm or the S&W M&P, but I'm forgetting the fact Ruger is my go-to for "not a duty pistol" handguns.
CapnMac
Member
That, though, is the crux of the thing.
Multiple people can want a thing. But, things have an economy linked to their construction. There is often a very finite minimum number as well as a maximum number of the thing that can be made for a given price point. The "multiple people" have to be willing to buy at the price point, and in a timely manner. (Ok, I have no idea how Ohio Ordnance can afford to offer not just one, but three models of BAR, nor of who is buying them at the US$3-5K MSRP.)
There is, legitimately a huge "gap" in the number of people who would like a US-legal FG-42, and the number of people willing to pony up the price, what with that resembling the price of a used car.
Is there a gap because you can't get an "AR" in 404jeffery? There's probably at least one person who is convinced they'd like one. Now, what it would take to lengthen an AR-10 magwell to accommodate 73mmm long cases might make the price a tad steep.
There's likely a "market gap" in drilling rifles in Creedmore calibers (but 2x 6.5cm and 1x 6cm might be fun, just not to one's shoulder)
Dunno, this has so many variables it probably does not have a simple answer.
Some times I think companies aren't aware of the gap, or aren't aware of the market for something.
I realize that some of this is probably related to technology development, but the idea of an optic on a carry gun was pretty much ludicrous ten years ago, and is almost ubiquitous today.
While this is true, how much of that is because of the price of the FG-42, and how much is the price of the US-legal? Considering you pretty much can't get a new production full-auto as a private citizen, this is almost moot.
One thing I never really understood - why is the magazine well so sacred? I get it for drop-in uppers or for something like a Glock 17 .40 conversion kit. But for a whole rifle, why is it that folks can engineer a new bolt, magazine, and barrel for a new AR, but can't lengthen the mag well? Maybe the subject for another post.
CapnMac
Member
That's from defining the size of the billet needed for machining (or mould size if casting).
Plain AR-15 will fit 45mm long cases; the AR-10 will accept 51mm ones--and there's perhaps a dozen different rounds that each of those will accept without changing the geometry of the lower (the registered, expensive, bit). And you don't even need to change the pin locations on the uppers.
Now, try and fit a 57mm case or a 70 or 74mm case in there. That means redrafting everything. Lower and upper alike.
You can get pistol calibers into an AR-15 lower as the case lengths are typically all less than the 45mm length, so, a magwell adapter solves that issue.
I mean if these companies that are making wildcat rounds and a whole upper for it, do they not have the ability to also make a new lower? They obviously have the ability to produce custom-designed parts. I don't understand why these parts (points to the upper) they can and willingly do, and these other parts (points to the lower) they can't, or at least are unwilling to.
Rubone
Member
You mean like being licensed as a manufacturer and selling serialized receivers? Why would anyone choose to not go there...
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Capybara
Member
There were 150,000 of them produced in 35 variants from 1978 – 2011, then in 2013 - 2014. My Ruger Red Label Sporting Clays with the 30" barrels. It's been a superb shotgun for many years now, it has never given me a lick or trouble and has about 6,000 rounds down the tubes. At the time this shotgun was purchased, Ruger had previously made the Red Labels, then discontinued them. Then they brought them back and I nabbed this one. Then they discontinued them again. I'd surmise too much competition from Browning, Beretta and now the Turks for these types of shotguns at ridiculously low prices, probably hard to make any profit margin on shotguns that cost less than $1,500 new.
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