Gather round the campfire and tell me the story of the 10mm.

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Well I picked up a G20 at an auction for 300 bucks and at first I thought well if anything I can just sell it, but I really like it, I plan on using it for CCW and I am going to get a G29. 10mm is just fun to shoot and its a great caliber.
 
The problem, as I see it, with using an auto in the field as a primary hunting gun is accuracy. Revolvers, good ones with scopes, can put five magnum rounds into 4 inches all day long at 100 yards. Few autos of a locked breach design can do that. Scoping 'em is a pain anyway. So, they are quite the short range propositions, probably 50 yards and in. Well, that's fine, though, if you're looking for that accuracy level and shooting iron sights anyway. The G20 is LIKELY to be the most consistently accurate just in my experience, but then, I have no experience at all with the Witness and cannot comment on that one. I have experience with a couple of 1911s, the Delta (good for 2.5" at 25 yards, the one I played with and knew the guy that owned it) and an AMT jamamatic Javelina (steer clear of this one) that didn't do any better than the Delta. I'd like a little better accuracy than that for 50 yard hunting, but I guess it'd get the job done.

My favorite handguns will put a cylinder full into an inch at 25 yards and will, even with iron sights, be able to hit minute of pie plate, normally well under 8 inches, at 100 yards. A good scope would get those groups under 4". I generally keep my shots under 75 yards with iron sights on any handgun. 100 yards is pushing it with irons and my old eyes. I have a scoped contender in .30-30 if I really wanna get serious about handgun hunting accuracy and power. It lays down more power at 200 yards, almost 1000 ft lbs, than a 10 at the muzzle and shoots 3" groups at 200 yards. But, when I want a challenge, I'll grab a Blackhawk with iron sights. :D I've taken two deer with a .357 Blackhawk and a 158 grain SWC at 760 ft lbs, about 10mm territory. It produced full penetration at slightly over 50 yards and gave a nice wound channel. Neither deer went very far. If the .357 can do that, I see no reason the 10 can't do even more, considering bore diameter and bullet weight. Thing is, you gotta hit it in the right place. If you can do that, be assured that the caliber of the gun is plenty for the job of hunting mid sized game. It is the ONLY round in a decently sized autoloading handgun (even my contender is light and small compared to a Desert Eagle) that should be called a magnum.
 
If you really want a revolver in 10, check out the Smith & Wesson 610. This is not a direction I would take, as I can think of a lot of other calibers available in similar sized revolvers that would be preferable for hunting/long range shooting to a 10.

Or, to be honest, if I have to take a shot at 200 yards, I will break out my 700P in 300 Win Mag. 200, 300, 500, 700, 1000 yards, the gun can do it. (My skills may be questionable.)

This gets to the crux of what is wrong and right with the 10mm. It is perceived (right or wrong) as being a little too stout for defense, because of concerns about both over-penetration and ability to shoot accurately. It is, ballistically, a good choice for game up to white-tail deer. However, the auto-loader is NOT a conventional hunting platform, and for similar dollars, a revolver is usually more accurate.

The 10mm then becomes the practical man's handgun cartridge. I can carry 15+1 of 10mm for self/home defense. I can hunt small-medium game with 10mm. I can plink with it economically (reoad). And the money I save by not buying two or three or four or more different guns for different things will pay for lots more time at the range.
 
If you really want a revolver in 10, check out the Smith & Wesson 610. This is not a direction I would take, as I can think of a lot of other calibers available in similar sized revolvers that would be preferable for hunting/long range shooting to a 10.
A 10mm in a revolver would defeat the purpose if you're trying to keep your velocity at acceptable levels. The barrel/cylinder gap would lose enough pressure to put your 10mm at or below .40 S&W velocities. Especially with factory loads.
Yes, I can think of a few revolver rounds that may be preferable to the 10mm but when you can push a 180 grain bullet at 1300 fps, that puts it right up with many of the revolvers and surpasses quite a few of them.

It is perceived (right or wrong) as being a little too stout for defense, because of concerns about both over-penetration and ability to shoot accurately.
Over-penetration I can buy but I have never heard a single complaint about the 10mm not being accurate enough for defense.

It is, ballistically, a good choice for game up to white-tail deer. However, the auto-loader is NOT a conventional hunting platform, and for similar dollars, a revolver is usually more accurate.
Up to white-tail deer? You're kidding, right? The majority of the white-tails in this country are not much bigger than coyotes. You can kill most white-tails cleanly with a Benjamin air-rifle.
The handgun is not a traditional hunting platform period so I don't think the style that you use really has a classification. Handgun hunting overall is not that old and, not counting single-shots, revolvers do probably outnumber semi-autos in the hunting field but that doesn't make them "traditional". There are more and more semi-autos going out every year and for me, that's about the only thing I take anymore.
 
We had a FBI agent arrive at our range once (with friends, to show them shooting). She was a wonderful lady. We let me run a magazine through the MP5/10. Amazing weapon! Absolutely useless on full auto, however, the 2 round burst really puts it in my mind: Dont mess with these folks. The two round burst puts the round roughly within an inch of one another. Scary thought.

Her service pistol was a Glock (compact model, too many darn numbers) in 10mm, which no one at our range liked (too much bang and recoil actually hurt!).

Needless to say, I was enchanted with her 10mm wonderweapon :D and would love to get my hands on a 10mm pistol (the handloading alone would be wonderfully fun!).
 
I would really like to see a resurgence of the 10MM. It is a great caliber. If we can have a .460 and .500 why not just bring the 10mm back. If more platforms are developed for it, more ammo will be made for it and cost will fall in line.

I encourage all the 10mm fans to write to S&W, Ruger, Sig, Springfield, HK, and any other manufacturer and request tehy develop a 10MM. I do this all the time. It takes only a few minutes to to wrote an e-mail. If they get enough mail, email, calls, we may see a new 10MM come out.

YOu can be sure we won't if we don't ask for it.
 
Desertscout

Revolvers:
We seem to be agreed with regard to revolvers. Yes, there is an option, the Smith 610, and no, neither of us would apparently buy one.

Accuracy:
I didn't mean to imply the 10mm was inherently inaccurate. The ability to which I refer is that of the shooter, not the gun or cartridge. This is due to flinch that is common as recoil, report and muzzle blast increase.

There are a number of complaints of this type. The largest was probably the FBI, which downloaded the 10mm to overcome this issue. This, of course, lead to the creation of the 40S&W.

By the same token, neither is over penetration inherent to the cartridge, but to bullet selection at a given velocity. This is best shown by the FN 5.7X28 and it's ability to defeat body armor at approximately half the energy level of the 10mm.

Game and hunting weapons:
I am no hunter and was here merely regurgitating the opinions of those I respect (and that make sense to me). Yes, I am aware a properly placed shot from almost anything will do under the right conditions. I have put down many a bovine with a 22lr in the barn yard.

I grew up in Indiana. White tail is the about the largest game regularly hunted in that area, and 10mm would be a great option (if legal). I do not see people in the mountain west where I now live using the 10mm for 75-300 yard shots that I am told are common on mule deer and elk.

I would agree that mule deer are about the largest game animal commonly hunted in North America that could be classified as medium game. However, their typical habitat makes hunting them with a 10mm difficult proposition.

Incidentally, whitetail deer are on average more than twice the size of a coyote. The largest coyote on record (75 lbs.) is still 15 lbs short of the low average for a whitetail doe (90 lbs.).

I did not use the word traditional in my post, although you also took exception to it's use. The word I did use was conventional. It was an adjective modifying hunting platform. While handguns may not yet be traditional, there certainly is an established convention to use them as a hunting platform and for their use within that platform. Within the handgun hunting platform the conventional handgun is either a single-shot weapon or a revolver. Per Chuck Hawks "Semi-automatic hunting pistols are few and far between."

Perhaps I have mis-interpreted the tone of your post, but it certainly felt as if I were being called out to defend my statements. If I have mis-interpreted your tone, then clearly we are in agreement, despite my perception to the contrary.

The 10mm is a great cartridge, that gets overlooked all to often, and is improperly maligned. It is presently and for the near future the ONLY large caliber I plan to own in a handgun. Were I to get involved with handgun hunting, I would almost certainly choose the EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm as my weapon.
 
I think, for the most part, that we are in agreement except for the "traditional" part. I pasted your quote right above my statement so, even though I used the wrong word, it should be apparent what I was talking about.

I still think the 10mm is a little horsey for human targets as far as penetration goes. I DO agree that if you are exceptional particular about the kind of bullet that you use that you can alleviate some or all of the over-penetration issue. But to me, that's unnecessary and, in my mind, makes the 10 a little too much. If a 180 gr. Hornady XTP will completely penetrate a mule deer at over 100 yards, I can't see it doing otherwise on a human at 10 feet.
 
i suppose this has nothing to do with the question but ive never said it before
but i think the size and proportios of the 10mm is one of the best looking pistol rounds there is
 
I've loaded 135 Rainier plated bullets to over 1700 fps out of a 6" Glock 20. Penetrated to 22" in water and expanded to over .6"

That works out to about 14" in ballistic gel. You should see what this round does to a water filled milk jug!! Blew the top clear off and laid the bottom flat on the ground in 3 sections.

So that gives an explosive impact and no over-penetration.

I do carry this weapon/round when I'm not carrying my 2" Ruger SP101 357.

Mike G.
 
Zombie Thread time!!!!

I recall reading somewhere (probably on this forum) that what messed up the Bren Ten was the magazine availability problem. Of course this is info from the internet so it is not guaranteed and it's subjective since it's nearly impossible to track down the folks from Bren to get the real, entire story from then.

Here goes what I remember reading....

Miami Vice and Don Johnson had the USA firearms community wanting the Bren Ten badly! Bren had the magazines made from a factory in Italy. Then a nutjob tries to assassinate the Pope. Then Italy puts on hold all firearms related exports from Italy for months (possibly up to 14-19 months). In incredibly bad timing this included the Bren Ten Magazines for their pistol which had already shipped a few hundred or so pistols. The completed Bren Ten magazines sit in a warehouse near the port in Italy for months and months while the ban runs. And who knows if the magazines were properly sealed against moisture and sea air infiltrating the shipping container and boxes inside. The ultimate Aww $#*! situation for Bren and their customers.

The long, long wait made for many, many cancelled orders which simply ruined the company and the pistol which likely would have sold well. Therefore, the 10mm was set back a decade or so. Plus, the FBI deciding it had "too much recoil" and creating the 40 S&W to buy in large quantities for the FBI and other law enforcement instead.

Again, this is from memory, so I am likely off on some details. But it does sound likely and logical. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and oops. Business with suppliers is often complicated.

I think it was a "perfect storm" of bad luck, bad timing, and bulk buyers (military, police, FBI, etc..) going with other calibers like 40 S&W that set back the 10mm in popularity several years.

Thanks.
 
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I've always been a fan of the 10mm and would like to own one some day. Don't have anything much else to add than that but I did see another very interesting cartridge the other day called the .40 super. Here are the specs compared to the 10mm.

Technical Information:
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Bullet Weight: 135 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps
Muzzle Energy: 767 ft. lbs.

Technical Information:
Caliber: 40 Super
Bullet Weight: 135 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1775 fps
Muzzle Energy: 945 ft. lbs.

Only down side is it's a bottle necked cartridge, anyone own both of these cals?
 
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