JHTexas
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Roundness
Gauges Aren’t Barrels—A Saga of Four Barrels, One Gauge, and One 45 ACP Round
- Thread starter CQB45ACP
- Start date
JHTexas
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I totally understand. Maybe not even the best suggestion, it's just what I did so my son didn't just grab a box of my loaded rounds and select the short throated 1911 or CZ, they typically have short throats.
As I get older, I could make the mistake too.
My Dad was a Tool & Die Maker so we had some experience with turning threads, drilling & reaming at a young age.
jmorris
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What you are seeing is why you need to set your dies for “plunk”, then use your case gauge (no rifling to contact at any length). Chamber reamers are not only different (angles and tapers into the rifling that is cut into the barrel) but even ones ground to the same specifications wear And change what they cut. Why there are tolerances vs just a single dimension it must be. In other words, there is a range of OK And your load is right in that range.
When that changes, so does allowable bullet seating depth.
You don’t need any special dies, just seat the bullets a tad lower if you want them to all plunk right. Also note the barrel with the shortest lead as one to use upon setup, in the future. If you use the one from the gun that will run anything, the finicky ones will still choke.
When that changes, so does allowable bullet seating depth.
You don’t need any special dies, just seat the bullets a tad lower if you want them to all plunk right. Also note the barrel with the shortest lead as one to use upon setup, in the future. If you use the one from the gun that will run anything, the finicky ones will still choke.
kmw1954
Member
A few years ago I acquired a nice used Tanfaglio Witness 45acp. When I tried loading .452" plated bullets in it I ran into all sorts of problems. Kept having feeding, chambering issues. So a moderator on the CZ forum suggested a Lee FCD and it all went away. Faced a lot of grief for posting that back then and was unconditionally told by a number of members here and elsewhere there was a problem with my reloading and the FCD was a "Band-Aide" fix. Well as it turned out there was/is nothing wrong with the reloaded bullets. They all performed perfectly in 3 other pistols. Then I tried with some cast lead bullets also sized to .452" with the same results. Then purchased a sizing die for .451" and magically all the problems disappeared and didn't need the FCD any longer.
CQB45ACP
Member
Yeah as great as THR is it ain’t no FCD support group
My journey is similar to yours (hello I’m CQB and I used an FCD). Hope tomorrow changes everything.
JHTexas
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So if I understand you correctly the Lee FCD was sizing down the O.D. of your loaded rounds by .001" or more and by using the .451 diameter bullets you no longer needed the Lee FCD to reduce the diameter of the loaded rounds?
AJC1
Member
I love and use my 38/357 fcd like a boss. I must have a big ring in mine because it almost never does any sizing, but just crimps like I need it to. If I over flare I will get an initial bump but I know exactly what that is and why. In the described senerio the bullet is swaged either way and is needed. My only thought might be the loss of some neck tension.Yeah as great as THR is it ain’t no FCD support group
My journey is similar to yours (hello I’m CQB and I used an FCD). Hope tomorrow changes everything.
CQB45ACP
Member
I no longer use it but understand it’s benefits (there I said it).
kmw1954
Member
Only explanation I have. I doubt it was even actually .001".. I also found that by using thin walled brass made a difference. Still shooting that gun exactly how it was and it is very accurate.
kmw1954
Member
I hear ya, All my other pistol die sets are just 3 dies. The same way I learned to back in 1980.
JHTexas
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I haven't read any Pros and Cons on the FCD. Is there a love hate relationship going on there?
CQB45ACP
Member
Yes but shhhhhhh
lordpaxman
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I’m starting the popcorn…
kmw1954
Member
None for me, I have a tooth ache.
BiknSwans
Member
Excellent summary. It still annoys me that the two reloading books I have do not mention the plunk test. It seems the plunk test should be one of the basic lessons in a reloading book.
I learned the hard way. I sometimes couldn't remove a round from the chamber, and got my first DQ when I dropped the gun trying to clear the chamber.
THR trained me how to properly test my ammo with the plunk test, and that problem is ancient history. Thank you THR!
NMexJim
Member
Member Companies - SAAMI
saami.org
I’m including a link to Wilson gage instruction (again) because the above is cut off some and hard to read fully.
Interestingly enough, Les Baer and Brown are not SAAMI members at least according to the list. Wilson Combat is. Alchemy not.
As CQB noted, Wilson Pistol Max gages are cut to SAAMI specs. Below cut from the above attachment.
I’m not casting dispersions at “plunking”. Done it many times myself. What I’m trying to figure out is what’s with these barrels? I was curious about SAAMI members, and that was my first thought - non-members cut to their own designs. CZ might be a case-in-point.
I load for 7 9mm in my family and 3 .380. Before I started using Wilson gages, I had problems - nearly the direct reverse of CQB. I am now scratching both ends, and I have a headache.
Yankee1986
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I assume you do this successfully.
All you seasoned vets say "if it's working for you...".
The fact that Wilson was the only SAMMI member does seem strange.
CQB45ACP
Member
Thanks I appreciate you trying to help. All y’all for that matter.What you are seeing is why you need to set your dies for “plunk”, then use your case gauge (no rifling to contact at any length). Chamber reamers are not only different (angles and tapers into the rifling that is cut into the barrel) but even ones ground to the same specifications wear And change what they cut. Why there are tolerances vs just a single dimension it must be. In other words, there is a range of OK And your load is right in that range.
When that changes, so does allowable bullet seating depth.
View attachment 1170543
You don’t need any special dies, just seat the bullets a tad lower if you want them to all plunk right. Also note the barrel with the shortest lead as one to use upon setup, in the future. If you use the one from the gun that will run anything, the finicky ones will still choke.
Addressing my issue though isn’t that straight forward lest I would’ve done so several years ago. (And in fact started a thread here two years ago to discuss shortening already crimped cartridges.)
The problem appears to be a bullet problem, specifically the Acme 230RN .452”. And not just one lot. I hope to find out today resizing some down to .451”.
It’s not a COL problem or at least not one to be solved simply by seating a little bit shorter. Been there done that most recently two years ago.
This picture shows four .452” Extreme plated bullets seated to 1.260” fitting just fine in all four barrels. No flare/no crimp. Certainly no need to seat shorter.
This is how I load virtually every 230gr RN I shoot and as I recall it’s about as short as any published data suggests.
This next picture shows an Acme seated to 1.240” and crimped that still won’t quite fit in the Wilson barrel. It does however appear to fit in the other three (no picture).
Problem is (and I’ve known this for years) nothing approaching that short will reliably feed in my pistols using my 14 magazines. In other words, it’s not a correction to the problem.
CQB45ACP
Member
Sounds so intuitive & plain language. I like it so it must be wrong
jmorris
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I suppose the reason why I am focused where I am stems from back around 2002 when David (Precision bullets) stopped casting his bullets and started swaging them. They were still a 230 grain round nose but they have a little flat spot right on the tip. Many in our club that shot them had problems because they loaded them to the same OAL as the cast ones and the ogive of the bullet contacted rifling. The solution was to seat the bullet deeper, so if it didn’t actually have that flat spot it would be the same OAL.
Here is the funny part. All of them that had the problem, created it. Those that just opened the box started loading them with the same everything else they used for his cast bullets were fine.
If you were one whom paid attention to details, you would have noticed the rounds came out “too short”. Everyone that adjust their dies to get the correct OAL, had the bullets contacting rifling afterwards.
Vs your other 230’s.
But that’s not the whole picture. Sometimes, as with rifles an ogive measurement is worth doing (the closer to bullet diameter the better because that’s what’s going to be contacting the rifling).
For this example I just removed the seating stem but we can see that as far as the firearm would be concerned, the two are the same, despite different OAL’s. Why people who did nothing were fine.
CQB45ACP
Member
Okay
Well I knew your comments were based in sound analysis.
Fortunately I’m dealing with little blobs of lead and not gold. So I can afford to just let it go but somehow just can’t.
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jmorris
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They certainly are a lot more fun to throw away at 750fps than 32ft/sec/sec.
There is a point where full bullet diameter will contact rifling beyond the end of the chamber, it might be easier to view your RN bullet as a SWC. If the shoulder on a SWC contacts this part it always seems more obvious to people than when it occurs on RN bullets.
If they are coated though, they will look just like yours. Where the contact is being made.
So move the area of contact (red arrow) down to where nothing can contact it. Probably not as far as the blue arrow but just enough that there is clearance between the bullet and barrel.
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JHTexas
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Did the round fully seat after you did this?
Is the one you tested at 1.260"?
It's hard to tell but are the markings on the start of the ogive?
This is very interesting because my Wilson barrels will take a SWC COAL .012" longer than my other match barrels and .060" longer on a tradition FMJ-RN.
I measure the variation from barrel to barrel with a extended dummy round for a given style bullet.
I know your not trying to find the correct COAL, but I thought I’d show how I tested my barrels because we both have the same brand. Yours seems to be less forgiving then mine.
Example on 9mm
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Just a couple of comments, which may have already been covered.
Some of the barrels may not be chambered to SAAMI dimensions (intentionally). The Wilson gauge won't properly check ammo for a tighter than SAAMI spec barrel/chamber.
Due to variations in coating uniformity, coated bullets are sometimes larger than specified. I have some coated 45 Cal bullets that measure over .453".
Some of the barrels may not be chambered to SAAMI dimensions (intentionally). The Wilson gauge won't properly check ammo for a tighter than SAAMI spec barrel/chamber.
Due to variations in coating uniformity, coated bullets are sometimes larger than specified. I have some coated 45 Cal bullets that measure over .453".
