Giffords shooting / mass murder

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No, according to reports an armed citizen was in the Walgreesn, (about 75 yards away, shopped at both stores), heard the commotion, came outside, and was too late. His sidearm was never removed from the holster.
BTW, according to the FBI press conference earlier today, the woman pulled an extended mag away from him, and then the muderer successfully loaded another. The Feebs said that one failed to operate due to faulty mag spring, and two bystanders were able to tackle him. That woman's bravery as well as the two others saved a lot of lives.
 
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Very unfortunate. My prayers go out to all the victims and their family's. With freedom comes responsibility. This young man evidently never learned that.
 
Let's not overlook the value of some minimal medical training.
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This. Years ago when I started getting interested in self defense and self sufficiency I took a complete EMT course and a "tactical medicine" class.

Very important stuff, worth looking into some baseline knowledge if that is lacking.
 
I wonder how, or if you can actually protect yourself (assuming you are the presenter) from something like this. I do a more than a few seminar type things where I present to large groups. Granted I highly doubt anyone would consider me a target, but thinking about how crazy the scene can be immediately before, after or during a break or Q&A session, if someone decided to run the front what could you do?

I can imagine they could easily pull a gun out just outside the immediate ring of security and unload a full magazine on the speaker before anyone could do anything. It is simply not that unusual for someone to come directly towards a speaker to ask a question during the time periods I described. I would think maybe (and this is a complete guess) you may see something in the look you are getting to maybe hint that something is up but nowhere near enough to actually take action.

Once the shooting starts, it is not like you can just open fire on him. Given the accuracy of most shooters when under pressure you would just raise the number of casualties significantly and since you (unlike the BG) actually care about hurting innocent people, does not seem like a good route to go. OC spray if your within range may be good and give you and others the opp to take him down but it is risky too.

Any thoughts on defense of this situation at those 2 points? Let's assume you feel a personal moral obligation to take action to end this (and not to flee or just take care of yourself).
 
There's a guy on FNC being interviewed was one of the four who tackled the shooter. He was carrying and had the presence of mind not to produce his weapon. He saw a person with the gun assessed the situation and seen the Glock was at slidelock so he didn't produce his weapon. Grethcen of FOX am show has her jaw on the ground that this guy was carrying a gun. The kid is representing himself well. The person holding the gun when he arrived a the scene was a bystander who had disarmed the shooter. He had his hand on his weapon said he took the safety off put didn't pull it. He said he was in a nearby store and ran out to the scene when he herard shots. The FOX interviewers barely know what to do. The asked him what training her had, basically he told them he grew up with his dad around guns. Gretchen on FOX asked him if he always carried - answer ALWAYS. Then he expanded and told her he may not go to airports anymore since he can't carry there, and this just reinforced his plans to carry.

CCW did it right here.
 
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The FOX interviewers barely know what to do.
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Very interesting, John.

Goes to show that the common perception exists that all CCW'r are just waiting to pull and shoot is pure bunk.

Very pleased to hear what a logical, intelligent guy this was. Good for him!
 
a Congresswoman's security detail was not as super as one might imagine but did stop the guy as soon as he paused to reload
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Congressmen and Women generally don't have a security detail. They travel as private citizens, unless they have been threatened or are members of the house or senate leadership.
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Right. There was no security detail. If the senator had been threatened and had a security detail, the event likely would not have been held out in the open as it was.

I can't help but wonder if there was anyone there, leo or civilian, who may have been armed? If so then did any of them try to shoot shoot back? If armed and did not try to shoot back then why didn't they at least try?

If no one else there was armed then why not? After this took place in Arizona one of the most gun friendly states in the Union?
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This guy was carrying. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/01/08/exp.az.zamudio.witness.cnn?hpt=T1 He says he was there, but he wasn't. What was his response? He was in the drug store buying cigarettes when he head the shots and discussed them with the clerk before springing into action...after all the shooting was over. He never drew his gun, though he mentions multiple times that he would have if needed.

I don't understand your surprise. Being a gun friendly state does not scare people into not acting. While a considerable number of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones such as school campuses, they don't occur there because they are gun-free, but because that is where the shooter had issues. The same for work place shootings. The shooters don't typically go to some other school or some other place of business to take out there vengence, but to the place they had issues.

Those who are willing to die are put off by security gun ownership within a state.

I do understand your sentiment. If there was a public mass shooting like this, AZ would be the place you would expect to hear how armed citizens responded. They have legal open carry and concealed carry without a permit. Basically anyone of age and not a felon can carry a pistol. The event was not held in a gun-free zone. So there was nothing in place that would preclude the general populace from having a gun there out in front of a busy Safeway grocery store where there was a lot of customer/pedestrian traffic.

All in all, this event has some significant lessons for a lot of people who conceal carry guns who buy into a lot of the myths about guns, criminals, and self defense.

Mass shootings just don't happen in gun-free zones. They happen either where the target(s) is going to be and/or where the shooter had issues (such as work or school)
Mass shooters are not put off by the notion of possibly encountering a citizen carrying a gun.
Being unarmed does not mean being defenseless. It just means not having a gun. Several mass shooters have been stopped by folks who responded with force but no weapons other than themselves.

So yeah, nobody shot back. The shooter was stopped by unarmed people.

There's a guy on FNC being interviewed was one of the four who tackled the shooter. He was carrying and had the presence of mind not to produce his weapon. He saw a person with the gun assessed the situation and seen the Glock was at slidelock so he didn't produce his weapon.
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That was Zamudio. He did not help tackle the shooter. He came way too late to the fight and the shooter was already grounded. He did see the shooter was to slidelock and he didn't produce his own gun. Interesting. He wasn't there and on his late arrival sees one guy down and assumes that there is only one shooter without doing anything to verify the claim. He was correct, but the decision could have been very costly.
 
Have to look for the video of him on Fox this AM. He gave a very different interview from what you had said. Not to say what you are saying is wrong. Just different. He said he left the store immediately without finishing his "transaction."

I was impressed that the guy had the presence of mind to assess the situation before reacting. The reaction of the TV interviewers was pretty fun to watch. They did not know he was carrying when they started the interview. Ussually they know the answers to the questions they ask and are prepared.
 
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Just from what I've read so far and have heard in some of the interviews, it seems that the citizens in the immediate area were not armed, and those who were armed came onto the scene after the gunman was tackled and disarmed.

From an armed citizen perspective (whether concealed or open), I think all of the armed citizens did exactly the right thing by not producing their firearm. Sure there could have been a second shooter, however, producing a weapon after the gunman was being dealt with, and no immediate evidence of an armed accomplice, could have put the armed good samaritan in danger, could have sparked more chaos and confusion, and if there was a second guy who maybe hadn't produced his firearm yet, guess who would have been the likely first target. As an armed citizen, at least IMO, it is not our responsibility to draw and cover in case there is a second shooter, it is only our responsibility to take down an active threat to human life, only if it is able to be done without harm to anyone else - this would have been a very difficult situation to have done that given the crowd.
It is a tragedy for sure, but things, as far as taking down the shooter, happened the best way it could have, and the armed citizens all acted responsibly IMO.
 
Thanks for posting that John - thankfully he had the presence of mind not to draw and open fire on the guy holding the gun who was not the shooter. This is exactly why even though we have the responsibility to protect ourselves and those around us, we cannot act in haste - this guy made the right decisions (at least according to his story) and the fall out had he fired on the hero that took away the gun from the gunman - all our rights would be in jeopardy had that happened.
 
That was Zamudio. He did not help tackle the shooter. He came way too late to the fight and the shooter was already grounded. He did see the shooter was to slidelock and he didn't produce his own gun. Interesting. He wasn't there and on his late arrival sees one guy down and assumes that there is only one shooter without doing anything to verify the claim. He was correct, but the decision could have been very costly.
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I watched both the Fox and CNN interviews. We just have different perspectives on interpting what he said. The interviews are pretty consistent. Is funny the way Gretch Carlson reacted she should have know the guy was armed, looks like from the dating on CNN he interviewed with them first.

I'm not suprised that someone was there armed. Just think the guy handled himself well, both at the scene and in the interviews. He readily admits the guy was down before he got there, he helped keep him down until police arrived. He's listed by several news organizations as part of a group of four that tackled/restrained him. He did look around and assess the scene from the way he describes it in both interviews. I think sometime there is tendancy to over analyze these things after the fact to be the person that comes up with the flaw or the what-if scenario that might have been missed. I think this guy handled it well, you seem to feel otherwise. No big deal - just different opinions. If I am reading you wrong apologize.
 
Here's my take.

My first thought,other than hopeing the people were alright, man, this is a state where OC and CCW are legal and no one attempted to stop the guy?

Second thought, maybe it is because they were spot checking people and those with CCW put their guns in their cars. or that there just weren't many or any CCW there because she is a Democrat.

Third thought, where was her security force and what the hell were they doing?

After I heard the Sherrif jump to conclusions blaming racisim, and the basically calling it saying in no uncertain terms it was a rabid conservative and blaming the Tea Party, he should be fired or make a televised appology. It turns out I heard on the radio today on the Huckabee report the shooter was a rabid liberal government hater who alienated himself from other liberals at his school with his craziness.
 
+1 on a good knife in this situation. If the guy was in the crowd, surrounded by innocent witnesses, a tackle followed by a knife lashing would make sense.
 
If the guy was in the crowd, surrounded by innocent witnesses, a tackle followed by a knife lashing would make sense.
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You have to be careful with such ideas, though. If someone tackles the guy and someone else grabs the gun, and so forth, stabbing him crosses beyond the line of a justifiable response. If he's being dog-piled by several bystanders and there is any indication that he no longer poses a further threat to life, knifing him to death might risk criminal charges to YOU. The only realistically justifiable reason for stabbing him would be if you thought he was somehow able to AND was actively trying to kill more people. Can't cause him a potentially lethal injury if he poses no further immediate threat.
 
"You have to be careful with such ideas, though. If someone tackles the guy and someone else grabs the gun, and so forth, stabbing him crosses beyond the line of a justifiable response. If he's being dog-piled by several bystanders and there is any indication that he no longer poses a further threat to life, knifing him to death might risk criminal charges to YOU. The only realistically justifiable reason for stabbing him would be if you thought he was somehow able to AND was actively trying to kill more people. Can't cause him a potentially lethal injury if he poses no further immediate threat."

Which is what they bystanders did including a guy carrying a gun with the ability to use lethal force. He evaluated the situation and chose the appropriate level of force in response.
 
KBintheSLC said:
...If the guy was in the crowd, surrounded by innocent witnesses, a tackle followed by a knife lashing would make sense.
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Not necessarily.

In addition to what Sam and John wrote, by taking the assailant alive and unscathed, he can't become anyone's martyr and the authorities might be able to get useful information from him.
 
As noted already, the entire incident took ~10 seconds.

Subtract 2 or 3 seconds for the WT? reaction....

If you weren't within 20 ft, you were to far away to respond in time.

If you were within 20 ft, there's a very good chance that you would have been one of the victims.

Unrestrained people with zero moral values (he murdered a 9 year old girl) are the blight of a free society. You can't incarcerate them until they do something evil..... and then it's too late to prevent the loss of Innocent life.
 
One more time for those that missed it and keep asking the same question.. There was no security detail!!! The few people that were with her were just some staff, secrataries and personal assistants, no badges or guns...

Normal everyday senators and congressmen do not have any protection details. There are a couple that do but only because they have specific threats against them or they sit on specific committees that attract threats against them. The speaker of the house is one that comes to mind but even then its only a couple people, not a full presidential detail with 70 people, arrmored limos and a helo on standby.
 
gfpd707 said:
As an EMT I can assure you it most likely didnt take minutes for medical help to arrive. They were most likely notified near the same time as the police. Medical personel will not enter a scene until it is cleared by law enforcement. I have been to scenes where we were blamed for not coming quickly enough although we were just down the street waiting for the all clear.
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Agreed. And such policies exist for a damn good reason too!

I'm on the LE side of things myself, and I've seen how bad things can go when Fire/EMS beat us to some critical incidents. I responded to a stabbing a couple of years ago where our FD didn't wait for us to arrive (really, we weren't more than a minute behind them, but seconds count sometimes). Before we got to the scene we were advised by radio that the suspect was chasing the firefighters around with a knife, and not letting them near the victim... Not good.
 
As noted already, the entire incident took ~10 seconds.

Subtract 2 or 3 seconds for the WT? reaction....

If you weren't within 20 ft, you were to far away to respond in time.
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Depends on the type of response. If it it drawing a gun, then distance isn't the issue. Taking the Tueller drill into consideration, 20 feet translates into 1.5 seconds or less to cover the distance. 10 second event minus the 2-3 WT? seconds, and that leaves 7-8 seconds in this case. A lot of ground can be covered in 7-8 seconds.

If you were within 20 ft, there's a very good chance that you would have been one of the victims.
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Yep, but not all were and some did respond. Even being a victim didn't necessarily mean being out of the fight for two of them.
 
And as for the statement about 15 minutes for the cops and 30 minutes for the EMTs...

USA Today has an article by William Welch that quotes the sheriff's timeline showing the first 911 call at 10:12 with the first deputy on scene at 10:15 followed by the first medical units at 10:16.

The sheriff's department has given numerous briefs in the past 24 hours giving tons of info. Please try to check some facts before stating them as such. This shouldn't be about who didn't do what or where was whom ever. Its about a sick deranged individual who tried to assassinate a politician and in the process also decided to kill and wound other innocents as well.
 
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