Glock .40sw - unsupported chamber problem fix?

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I have KB'd an older (1998) G27 And a Beretta 96 on reloaded .40! I believe the issue has been resolved in later yrs of the glocks but they didn't recall the old barrels and offer replacements as maybe they should have. When I got my 27 back form Glock with a new frame, I didn't notice if the barrel had been replaced as well but I have not had an issue with it since. I stole these pics of a thread on TFL to illustrate chamber support on many guns. The XD gets props for full support but it ends there. If one would call the Glock a "foreign made, mass produced, cheaply built gun" then maybe do a little research on the origin of th "Springfield Armory" (yeah right) XD.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=64504&d=1190685535
 
If one would call the Glock a "foreign made, mass produced, cheaply built gun" then maybe do a little research on the origin of th "Springfield Armory" (yeah right) XD

Made in Croatia. So?
 
Lead...Glock...unsupported chamber....Sounds likee you need a KKM barrel. Cut rifling, fully supported chamber.....Good stuff. My 27 loves 180 LRNFP at 900+ with the KKM barrel.
 
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I had my old Glock 22 40 S&W feed ramp TIG welded 5 or 6 years ago.
Then I re cut the chamber and feed ramp.
The old support was at .235" and with the web of the case .180", there was .055" of thin unsupported case wall.
I re cut the ramp to .180", so there is full support.
I assume that Glock cut the feed ramp deep so that it would feed any bullet, but I can still feed any bullet.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Before I made the change, I would get guppie belly case bulges with ~ 30% more powder than the maximum published load book recipes.
After the change, I can put 155% extra powder.
15.5 gr 800X 200 gr is a max load for 44 mag, but in my Glock 22 it works. The 40 sw has a much smaller volume, so I assume the pressure is very high.
The recoil is horrific and intolerable. One shot make the shooting hand hurt for hours.

What does it all mean?
1) The 40sw has more power potential than the 10mm [contrary to common knowledge]
2) The 40sw Glock is very strong [contrary to common knowledge]
3) The kaboom blame is more on the ammo, operator, and case support.[contrary to common knowledge]
 
If the unsupported chamber is such a big deal then why do sooooo many PD's (like mine) arm thier officers with glocks???
 
Unsupported chambers become an issue with reloads. As the case is expanded/sized multiple times it can weaken the brass. Having the unsupported chamber allows a section of the brass to be exposed. Exposed section of weakened brass can rupture. Add in people who like to run their reloads at the upper end of published data and the problems gets worse.

Since new factory ammo uses new brass, less of a concern.


Hokkmike - look at the picture that krochus posted on page 1 of this thread. The barrel on the right has a greater section of the case showing near the feed ramp. Look a the difference between the case rim and the feed ramp and you'll notice the one on the right has more of a 'half moon' section exposed.
 
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The photo with all the different brand barrels is mine and all the barrels are from guns I have in my collection (except the SW99 was traded for a P99 and the 4004 was traded for a 4006).

The main purpose of that photo was to show that some pistols are more suited for reloaders of the 40sw round than others as the farther brass is stretched or bulged then resized the weaker it becomes and the fewer number or times it can be safely reloded.

On a side note, the SW99 produced the worst fired brass than any of the others, brass form it was stretched and bulged to the point you would not even consider reloading it.
 
JonB
Senior Member


Join Date: 12-18-06
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 299

Unsupported chambers become as issue with reloads. As the case is expanded/sized multiple times it can weaken the brass. Having the unsupported chamber allows a section of the brass to be exposed. Exposed section of weakened brass can rupture. Add in people who like to run their reloads at the upper end of published data and the problems gets worse.

Since new factory ammo uses new brass, less of a concern.

Good writing JonB:)

What about the weak spot inside even supported rimless brass between the primer pocket and the extractor groove?

Could you write a good paragraph about the effect that the design variation in weak spots has on the hierarchy of cartridge design power potentials, when compared with fully supported chambers?
 
Gotta problem Clark? or just trying to be a jackass?

Think I'll print off your last post and make good use of it in the bathroom.

After the change, I can put 155% extra powder.
15.5 gr 800X 200 gr is a max load for 44 mag, but in my Glock 22 it works. The 40 sw has a much smaller volume, so I assume the pressure is very high.
Sounds like a future candidate for the The Darwin Awards.
 
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For some reason, I think this is just a way-overblown thing that got a few people really worked up for no reason. I'm no machinist, but I have worked with metal before and I doubt those two extra flaps at the bottom of the chamber (see M&P pic on page 1) would make a difference in blowing up a chamber or not. If what really causes it is failed brass, then why sit here and worry about the gun's chamber when thousands and thousands of Glock .40s shoot reloads on a daily basis??? It's just a coincidence that it's happened to a couple Glock pistols because Glock just happens to sell more .40s than any other brand pretty much. Not to mention all of them that are still around after 15 years...

I say ignore it. I mean do you really fear those probabilities of it happening to you in particular?
 
JonB
Senior Member


Join Date: 12-18-06
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 300

Quote:
The 40sw has more power potential than the 10mm
?????

Not sure I believe that for a second.....
Gotta problem Clark? or just trying to be a jackass?

Think I'll print off your last post and make good use of it in the bathroom.

Quote:
After the change, I can put 155% extra powder.
15.5 gr 800X 200 gr is a max load for 44 mag, but in my Glock 22 it works. The 40 sw has a much smaller volume, so I assume the pressure is very high.
Sounds like a future candidate for the The Darwin Awards.

JonB,
I am sorry if I irritated you.
I am being as polite as I can.
By day I have technicians carry out the tests I design, but by night I carry out my own controlled experiments overloading of guns in cartridges like;
.223, .243, 25acp, 257 Roberts AI, 270, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 7.62x39mm , 308, 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm,357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, and 45/70.

What does it all mean?
I have collected data on questions like what has more potential power, 40 S&W or 10mm.

I am certainly open to anything I don't know about, but I believe I am in possession of information contradicts that the gun culture mythology on 40sw vs 10mm. The primer will fall out of the 10mm case when it fails at a much lower pressure than the 40sw failure point. I think my data is repeatable.
 
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By day I have technicians carry out the tests I design, but by night I carry out my own controlled experiments overloading of guns in cartridges like;
.223, .243, 25acp, 257 Roberts AI, 270, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 7.62x39mm , 308, 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm,357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, and 45/70.

What does it all mean?




It means you're not too bright. :)
 
If the unsupported chamber is such a big deal then why do sooooo many PD's (like mine) arm thier officers with glocks???
Because Glocks cost under 100 bucks for them to make so they can cut better deals with PDs than other brands, and Glocks are "easier" for people who are new to guns (most new officers) to learn to shoot, just load the mag, rack the slide, and you're good to go, no levers or safetys to mess with, and only one trigger pull so no transition from DA to SA after the first shot.
 
I am certainly open to anything I don't know about, but I believe I am in possession of information contradicts that the gun culture mythology on 40sw vs 10mm. The primer will fall out of the 10mm case when it fails at a much lower pressure than the 40sw failure point. I think my data is repeatable.

There is also more to power limitations than just pressure limitations even if what you say was found to be accurate. Case capacity can play a big role.
There is simply more room to put more powder in a 10mm and design a staged burn so near the maximum pressure is present the entire time the bullet is going down the barrel. Obviously the difference would become greater the longer the barrel length.

Also the brass is to standard, and while one company's brass may be stronger in one lot, or in general, it does not mean it always will function above the pressure it is designed to work at. The standard is SAAMI. That is the only standard they are designed to reliably meet. Some brass is thicker, some is thinner, however they all are designed to meet SAAMI specs.

Any number of things unannounced can and do change. Meeting that standard is all they will strive to do. So getting familiar with a loading well above SAAMI specs and relying on the brass to always maintain a standard it is not held to might give you some unexpected kabooms in your future.

I seem to remember a large number of factory ammo .40SW cases rupturing when the round was introduced, and some companies subsequently strengthened parts of the case.
 
Zoogster,
good concerns.
I got 1000 each of mixed prepared once fired 45acp, 10mm, and 40 S&W brass.

The same load will always cause brass of a cartridge to fail within a 2% range of powder change. Every brand is within that range. The 45 Super and 460 Rowland brass also have the same strength as any other 45acp brass. The 45+P from Starline IS a different design, and does have less volume. It has stronger case walls, but the same web structure.

I am not certain about pistol brass composition, but I am told that all rifle brass is between 3/4 hard cartridge brass and H06 tempered C26000 cartridge brass. Someone better at math than me calculates with Von Misses equations that Mauser case heads fail in the web around the primer pocket between 61,000 and 65,000 psi.
My tests show that the ultimate strength of pistol brass is consistent between brands as is rifle brass. Of course 6mmBR with a small primer pocket is good for very much more pressure than a .243 and 40 S&W is good for very much more pressure than a 10mm.

The part that capacity plays will never help 10mm 1.3" 200 gr catch up to 40 S&W 1.26" 200.
I would not bet high stakes that the 40 1.26" can alway beat the 10mm in an S&W 610 revolver, with a much longer OAL, where there is enough volume to help.

The way that the 40 1.26" 200 gr always beats the 10mm 1.3" 200 gr is that the 10mm case fails and the primer falls out, and the 40 can take way more powder without that failure.

I see kabooms in work ups, and they are always within 2% of repeatability, with controlled conditions.

One out of control factors to watch for is bullet squished to a larger diameter from compressing the powder. That can cause a big spike in pressure and primer or primer pocket failure with as much as 50% less powder than expected. Resizing the same loads will return the results to within the 2% expected range, if the only interference is the wider bullet in the case. If the bullet is too wide for the throat, the bullet is scrap. Ackley described this phenomena of large bullets working in a small bore without pressure spikes is documented in P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the
neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm bullet, with the bore
remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge
with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi,
for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more
Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain
bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather
erratic, these loads averaged 2901
fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi.

And that is consistent with what I am seeing 40 years later with big bullets that swage easily with a flying start and pinched bullets that create a huge pressure spike.

There is also the problem of recoil, and a 40sw that makes 44mag power has real problems finding a slide heavy enough and a recoil spring assembly with enough force to prevent the slide hitting the frame too hard. High force recoil springs, in turn, require very fast magazine springs, which can be hard to load. Some disconectors cannot reset fast enough with stock trigger springs.

The problem is worse with 460 Rowland loads in small 45s, but there is not much for problems containing the 25acp at it's full potential. I know the P32 can shear off the hold open from radical recoil, and there is no place to put more springs.

What does it all mean?
Fix the case support, and, yes, the next problems in increased power start to appear. The 10mm large primer case is a fatal flaw that appears before any fatal flaws in the 40sw.
 
I have been told that the Dallas PD stopped using Glocks after two officers hand/finger was damaged when the 40 S&W practice ammo kaboomed. Yes, it was a reload. Some other brand X pistols will shoot reloads safely.
 
There is nothing wrong with Glocks as long as you use standard factory ammunition. If you dont like standard factory ammunition then you just need to pick up an aftermarket barrel to shoot your "aftermarket ammunition". Thats about it.

:)
 
The problem isn't so much from reloaded ammo, THAT is where the whole Glock thing got thrown awry, sure a reloader can create a problem BUT thats not what started the unsupported chamber issue...

It first came up in relation to KBed Glock 22s the problem was primarily with LEOs who would clear their weapon, and then reload that same round into the top of the mag, many many many many times over, each time the bullet would get set back upon being chambered over and over until the pressure levels from the shortened OAL would exceed what the case web could handle and with the Glocks unsupported chamber the case blowout would direct all the force right down the feed ramp into the magwell resulting in ripped up hands....... this happened at a couple police depts...... Tucson PD retrained their officers to NEVER place that cleared round back in the top of the mag so as to prevent the problem from happening, several other depts did likewise one of the kabooms was in Phoenix with the Maricopa county sheriffs dept..... the .40 S&W is already at its pressure limits when loaded to LE ++P pressure levels, it cannot afford the extra pressure from bullet set back caused by excessive cycling of the same cartridge, everytime ya chamber a round in most straight wall cal semi autos the bullet gets pushed into the feed ramp and then again against the top of the chamber as the round loads, this sets the bullet back slightly........... heavy recoil springs will increase how much ya set back that bullet as they ram the bullet into the feed ramp/chamber roof harder.

bottle neck cals don't suffer from this as the chamber is so much larger at the rear than the bullet......

Low pressure cals like the .45 ACP don't have a problem with bullet set back, the .45 GAP is another issue however as its just like the .40 S&W a smaller case that achieves ACP velocity by pumping up the pressure

Reloaders don't wanna resize glock fired brass very often as the bulged case gets flexed with each fireing and resizing and as with most non ferrous metals it will give out......... reloaded ammo is fine as long as its once fired brass to avoid the resizing and rebulging then resizing rebulging etc... if ya wanna reload the same cases over and over again then get an aftermarket barrel
 
My observation of hundreds of firearms and cartridges. The wide tolerance of the SAAMI drawings is usually observed in practice with the cartridge and the chamber being at the small end of each's allowable range. My old Glock 22 40sw had a .434".
The SAAMI registered range for a 40sw chamber is .4274" to .4314" for the chamber .2" ahead of the breach face.

What does it all mean?
My old* Glock not only had a deep feed ramp, but a sloppy chamber walls too.


*The night sights were already dim when I got it 8 years ago.
 
My old Glock 22 40sw had a .434".
The SAAMI registered range for a 40sw chamber is .4274" to .4314" for the chamber .2" ahead of the breach face.

I just measured my newer Glock 23, SN GXZ***, which places it in early-mid 2005, and it's 0.434" as well. Apparently Glock hasn't changed that. And... my old (March 25, 1999) Kahr MK40 actually appears to be on the extreme tight end. My caliper is saying 0.4275".

I also think it's worth pointing out that the Kahr rates all their guns, including the .40s, for +P ammunition, even though .40 +P doesn't even exist in SAAMI specs (though some companies load it, apparently; I've got a single case marked MFS 40S&W+P from a lot of mixed brass). And the Kahr does not have a fully supported case.

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TIG welded Glock on the left, Kahr on the right.

I have never heard of a Kahr blowing up. Which doesn't mean it's never happened, but with the propagation speed of information on the internet, it's got to be rare. And the fact that Kahr is willing to rate their guns for an ammunition which SAAMI does not endorse, despite them not having full chamber support... well, that tells you something about how important full chamber support actually is, at the normal end of the presure spectrum.
 

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Interesting. Just for giggles I measured my Glock 20C (SN: DAPxxxx which makes it Sept 2000) for comparison and it measures .433".
 
so would this be considered supported or non?
 

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