Glock bulge or smile

[fariagaurd]

New Reloader: Glock Bulge or Smile

I’ve learned through research starting my reloading journey that Glock’s and other semi autos have unsupported chambers. I now understand the only fully supported chamber is a revolver. Please don’t go there.

My question is: Why does Redding only offer their Grx die in .40SW? Why not 9MM or .45? Is it because the latter are slightly lower PSI?

Common sense would dictate if these chambers are unsupported or less supported that all brass fired from these chambers regardless of cartridge would have the same bulge or swelling. Is it dangerous to reload fired brass from these chambers in other calibers other than .40 without a Redding Grx type resizing die? Safety first!

Is there another die manufacturer that has an answer? Or, do I need to be concerned with reloading brass that is not .40SW from unsupported chamber manufactures when I am scrounging for brass at the range? Thanks for your help.

 

[Hondo 60]

Welcome to the wacky world of reloading!
"Some" guns do have the dreaded "unsupported chamber".
But there is no blanket statement that manufacturer X's
guns all have unsupported chambers ... that would be wrong.

Is it "dangerous" .. Hmm how to answer...
It might be. If the reloaded round doesn't quite fit in the chamber
& allows the gun to fire without going into full battery ...

Lee makes a "Bulge Buster" apparatus that consists of a die that the brass travels all the way thru to take out that bulge.

But I don't think this is something to really fret over.
I've reloaded 1,000s of 9mm rds & had zero problems.
Just picked up a 40 last month, so I haven't fired any of the ammo I made (about 500 rds).
But so far I haven't noticed any bulging brass.

 

[rskent]

Why does Redding only offer their Grx die in .40SW? Why not 9MM or .45? Is it because the latter are slightly lower PSI?

I wish I had an answer for you. Glocks, like a lot of other guns, like loads loaded for them.

Sometimes you need to load them hotter to get them to run well. It you run them to hot, they can tear

up your brass. I have had it happen with 9mm and 45acp. I don’t have any 40’s. The good thing is that

once you find the sweet spot, they are very forgiving and very reliable. You just have to work it out.

 

[glc24]

The Gen4 Glocks have the most supported chamber. I've loaded 40S&W using a lot of different headstamps both brass and nickel, using Dillon carbide dies. I have a Gen4 G23 and maybe close to 2,000 rounds so far, and never an issue.

 

[Walkalong]

It you run them to hot, they can tear

up your brass. I have had it happen with 9mm and 45acp.

If you are running .45 ACP "hot" enough to damage brass, you are way, way, over pressure.

 

[Walkalong]

My question is: Why does Redding only offer their Grx die in .40SW? Why not 9MM or .45? Is it because the latter are slightly lower PSI?

They don't offer it for 9MM (IMHO) because it is a tapered case. They don't offer it in .45 ACP because it runs at far less pressure than 9MM or .40 and the "bulge" sometimes associated with Glock and .40 S&W just hasn't ever been an issue.

.40 S&W is more apt to bulge (IMHO) than 9MM because of the difference in diameter making it easier for it to do so. Pure physics.

Glock adjusted the "unsupported" part of the chamber because of the "Glock bulge" and the bad rep that followed. Whether they are the only maker who have had it happen is a good question, and in fairness to them their guns were perfectly safe with new factory ammo. But they got the blame, or it wouldn't be called Glock bulge. And perhaps deservedly so.

 

[LiveLife]

Walkalong posted while I typed.

Why does Redding only offer their Grx die in .40SW? Why not 9MM or .45? Is it because the latter are slightly lower PSI?

Is there another die manufacturer that has an answer?

When reloaders could not resize 40S&W cases overly expanded in generous chambers to fully chamber in their barrels, they used push-through resizing die like Redding G-Rx (Glock Rx) and Lee Bulge Buster (essentially FCD without the inner components) to better resize the brass.

Lee Precision makes Bulge Buster kits for many straight walled semi-auto calibers except 9mm because it is a tapered case.

Is it dangerous to reload fired brass from these chambers in other calibers other than .40 without a Redding Grx type resizing die?

40S&W was my USPSA match caliber and I have shot several hundred thousand rounds last 25 years. During this time, I have used RCBS and Lee carbide dies and found Lee die with smaller radius on the carbide ring to resize further down towards the case base with smaller OD and even fully chamber in tighter Lone Wolf barrels. I do not use push-through resizing die as I have not found the need for it.

When I encounter overly expanded brass that won't resize fully in the Lee die, I will rotate the case 45 degrees and attempt to resize. If I can, I will check the brass in the tightest chamber barrel I have. If the brass won't fully chamber, I will deem the case too far expanded (think thinned case wall) and cull the case. I rarely encounter brass that can't be resized with Lee die.

If your resizing die won't resize the brass to fully chamber in your barrel and you have to use push-through resizing die, I would do it only once. If you are repeatedly overly expanding your brass, you are work hardening the brass (and likely thinning/weakening the brass) and I suggest lowering the powder charge.

I use Gen3 Glock 22/23/27 and barrels do not overly expand the brass. Compared to other brand 40S&W pistols, Gen3 Glock barrels have comparable if not better case base support.

Here's Gen3 Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf barrel

These are slightly overly expanded brass that will fully resize with Lee die.

As you can see from primer indent, these were not shot from Glock barrels as Glock striker will leave a rectangle indent.

After resizing

 

[rg1]

. Since the 40 S&W has a nearly straight case wall with no taper, I think manufacturers make generous sized chambers to insure reliable feeding. I've bought once fired brass, all the same brand, and some of it sizes perfectly while some are expanded near the base enough that my sizing die will not reduce the diameter near the base. In fact my sizing die leaves a radius and even swipes brass material where the carbide ring stops. Bought a Redding GR-X push through sizing die and it sizes the entire case and does not leave a ring where the regular die stops. My reloads in a Glock and Beretta Storm carbine do not swell 40 brass. Wouldn't load 40 without my Redding GR-X carbide die. Saves brass especially once fired you buy and saves me cases that my regular sizing die deforms and I throw away. 9MM has a lot of taper and regular sizing dies work fine and 45 ACP is lower pressure. I have found some guppy belly deformed cases. They need to be scrapped but just swelled brass needs push through sizing. I run all cases through the GR-X carbide die then use my regular sizing die. Perfect cases. Buying once fired cases, visually inspect the entire circumference of the case near the base. You WILL find a few that should be scrapped rather than resized and loaded.

 

[[email protected]]

The GR-X or Lee Bulge Buster concept will not work on 9mm or 45 acp since their case rims are larger than the case body. Cant simply push them all the way through the die. 9mm and 40s&w run at similar pressure levels.

 

[LiveLife]

Lee Bulge Buster concept will not work on 45 acp since their case rims are larger than the case body. Cant simply push them all the way through the die.

Well, tell that to Lee Precision - http://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools/lee-bulge-buster-kit/

With the Lee Factory Crimp Die, the Bulge Buster will repair all these rimless cases:
380 ACP
40 S&W
45 ACP
45 Win Mag
10 mm
41 AE
45 GAP

 

[noylj]

As above, there are unsupported chambers and then there are the early Glocks with almost NO support--see pictures.
Then, .40 S&W was brought out way too quick and with way too little research and development and when the bulges were noted, it was decided that was OK as it was a LEO cartridge and not for reloading...
9x19 is tapered. Redding can make a die for it, but 9x19 has never suffered the problems of the .40 S&W case, as the .40 case has a shorter and shallower web that causes even guns with very good support to still produce fired cases with very slight bulges.
I have had 9x19 bulge that, during sizing, was turned into a raised ridge that caused one of my P-08 Lugers to be totally locked up, so I bought a Lee 9mm MAK PTE and use it to Bulge Bust my 9x19 range pick-up cases.
.45 Auto will seldom have a bulge, as it runs at almost half the pressure of a 9x19 or .40 S&W.
Note: .40 S&W and 9x19 run at the same SAAMI pressure limits. Maximum Average Pressure for .45 Auto is 21,000 psi, and MAP for 9x19 and .40 S&W is 35,000 psi.

 

[rfwobbly]

I’ve learned through research starting my reloading journey that Glock’s and other semi autos have unsupported chambers. I now understand the only fully supported chamber is a revolver.

Both these statements are based on false internet rumors that persist on novice reloading boards and are eagerly repeated by people who simply don't know. Yes, Glock had some issues on their "Gen 1" 40 cal guns, but that was (what ?) 15+ years ago. And a lot of Gen 1 owners have since replaced those barrels for other reasons.

So that you might fully understand, here's the proof, my friend. Exactly what percentage of the brass you scrounge will not fully resize with a standard Sizing Die ?? 1 in 200 ? 1 in 500 ?

Any ratio lower than 1 in 100 is the same ratio where you'd also be finding split cases, expanded primer seats, and other "normal" deformities that would exempt the brass from being reloaded. In other words, the bulged 40 case exists only in the same ratio as other trash brass, which all scroungers expect to discover. And 9 and 40 cases are so plentiful that a bulge becomes simply another reason for recycling.

Friend, please believe me, as a novice reloader, you'd be much better served if you focused your efforts on learning best in class bullet and powder sources, and refining your reloading process.

All the best.
.

 

[kingmt]

I don't find that may be brass. Most of the case I throw away are because they have been on the ground to long.

 

[FROGO207]

As far as the 45ACP with the bulge I run them through the 45 Colt sizing die first and then the standard 45 ACP die. After that none have failed to drop into the chamber and work as designed. They have not blown up or ruptured on subsequent reloadings either. None of my firearms bulges it though. I only get those from range brass I find.

 

[fariagaurd]

Walkalong posted while I typed.

Thanks for you help. Very informative. Any reliability issues with the wolf barrel?

When reloaders could not resize 40S&W cases overly expanded in generous chambers to fully chamber in their barrels, they used push-through resizing die like Redding G-Rx (Glock Rx) and Lee Bulge Buster (essentially FCD without the inner components) to better resize the brass.

Lee Precision makes Bulge Buster kits for most straight walled semi-auto calibers except 9mm because it is a tapered case.

40S&W was my USPSA match caliber and I have shot several hundred thousand rounds last 25 years. During this time, I have used RCBS and Lee carbide dies and found Lee die with smaller radius on the carbide ring to resize further down towards the case base with smaller OD and even fully chamber in tighter Lone Wolf barrels. I do not use push-through resizing die as I have not found the need for it.

When I encounter overly expanded brass that won't resize fully in the Lee die, I will rotate the case 45 degrees and attempt to resize. If I can, I will check the brass in the tightest chamber barrel I have. If the brass won't fully chamber, I will deem the case too far expanded (think thinned case wall) and cull the case. I rarely encounter brass that can't be resized with Lee die.

If your resizing die won't resize the brass to fully chamber in your barrel and you have to use push-through resizing die, I would do it only once. If you are repeatedly overly expanding your brass, you are work hardening the brass (possibly thinning the case wall) and I suggest lowering the powder charge.

I use Gen3 Glock 22/23/27 and barrels do not overly expand the brass. Compared to other brand 40S&W pistols, Gen3 Glock barrels have comparable if not better case base support.

Here's Gen3 Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf barrel

These are slightly overly expanded brass that will fully resize with Lee die.

As you can see from primer indent, these were not shot from Glock barrels as Glock striker will leave a rectangle indent.

After resizing

 

[fariagaurd]

Thanks for the info and pics! Very informative. Any reliability or failure to feed type problems with the wolf barrel?

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks for the info and pics! Very informative. Any reliability or failure to feed type problems with the wolf barrel?

You are welcome.

My Lone Wolf barrels have the tightest 40S&W chambers I have seen and will fully support the case base but have worked reliably with .400" sized TCFP/RNFP/JHP jacketed/plated bullets in Glock 22/23/27.

Another benefit of tight chambers is brass do not overly expand at all making resizing of brass easier and likely extend the life of brass from less work hardening.

But if you are not pushing max loads and using mid-to-high range loads, by Gen3 factory Glock barrels have improved case base support (comparable to other factory barrels) with tighter chamber to not overly expand the brass.

 

[hdwhit]

In guns that have chambers in which the brass is not fully supported by the chamber wall, firing a round may cause the case to become distended in the unsupported area above the web of the case near the case head. Because this was observed in Glock pistols, the bulge in the side of the case is sometimes referred to as the brass being "Glocked". When the brass is resized, the resizing die may not be able to fully reset the case down to (or below) the level of the web of the case head. This leaves a distended area that has not been resized which stops abrubtly at the level the resizing die made contact with the case. The shape roughly approximates and smile and is characteristic of distended brass that is not fully reset by the resizing die; hence the description of it as a "smilie"

Since a smilie represents brass that has been displaced from the case wall, stretched away from the case web and has not been fully restored to its original position, it may not be as strong as an original case and is subject to catastrophic failure in the event that the unsupported area is again left unsupported in a subsequent firing.

I inspect all of my brass for distended areas above the case web using a micrometer. Any that is out of spec based on SAAMI dimensions is recycled. After resizing, all brassis again inspected for the presence of a "smilie" and any brass with one is also recycled. On range pick-up brass using this inspection process I have experienced "loss rates" as high as 15%. I know that there are some "special dies" designed to "rehabilitate" "Glocked" brass with a smilie, but in my opinion 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP are all inexpensive and the consequences of catatrophic failure so dire that whenever there is any doubt, I toss the case.

Several people have already posted that they don't worry about smilies and just proceed to load the cases anyway and have never had any problem. And they're correct. The risk of a "Glocked" case getting resized and yielding a smilie and then geting reloaded and the unsupported area of the case ending up unsupported a second time - the chain of events for a likely failure - is low. But the consequences of the failure of a "Glocked" case involves potential maiming of hand/face or blindness. A 7 cent case is not worth that risk in my book.

 

[LiveLife]

Good points.

If your Glock brass consistently shows overly expanded bulge that cannot be removed by your resizing die at case base, using fully supported Lone Wolf barrel may be a good insurance as once brass gets thinner/weaker, you simply cannot make the case wall thicker/stronger even though you push through resize the case.

If your Glock brass can be fully resized by your resizing die, I think you are good to go.

 

[Bayou52]

The GR-X or Lee Bulge Buster concept will not work on 9mm or 45 acp since their case rims are larger than the case body. Cant simply push them all the way through the die. 9mm and 40s&w run at similar pressure levels.

Quite the contrary, I use the Lee Bulge Buster for all of my 45 ACP. It uniforms the cases beautifully especially at the head and rim.

Some cases are harder than others to push through, but push through they all do. Once loaded, I check all 45 ACP in a Dillon case gage. Every round fits smooth and flush and glides in and out of the case gage like butter.

To date, I've never had a failure to feed or failure to return to battery since I began using the Lee Bulge Buster for 45 ACP.

In short, I'm a user and believer in the bulge buster for 45 ACP. I know there are others who feel differently, however.

Bayou

 

[9mmepiphany]

Why does Redding only offer their Grx die in .40SW? Why not 9MM or .45?

It has been my experience that the issue comes up with .40 brass more than any other. I've also experienced it with 9mm brass but not with .45ACP brass.

Most of my .40 brass has been range pick-up that has ended up in my pile during/after matches...I don't seek it out....which I end up having to sort out when I get home.

While I've loaded very few rounds, maybe 500-700, I did find that several would not fit fit my case gauge. A closer inspection showed that these had indeed been "Glocked"

I also worked a GSSF match and took home a lot of brass...in that haul was about 400 .40 cases. Upon inspection, about 60% exhibited some degree of budging. I ran these cases through a friend's G-Rx (it stands for Glock Fix/Prescription) and about 20% took more than a little force to be forced through the die.

Is there another die manufacturer that has an answer?

As already mentioned, Lee sells an "pusher" to use their FCD in the same manner. They do make them for other calibers...you can even use the 9mm Mak die for the 9x19mm.

It works on the same principle as the G-Rx, but is a bit more cumbersome to use as you have to balance the case atop the pusher

 

[Paddy]

Good points.

If your Glock brass consistently shows overly expanded bulge that cannot be removed by your resizing die at case base, using fully supported Lone Wolf barrel may be a good insurance as once brass gets thinner/weaker, you simply cannot make the case wall thicker/stronger even though you push through resize the case.

If your Glock brass can be fully resized by your resizing die, I think you are good to go.

Doesn't pistol brass get thicker with repeated reloading?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Doesn't pistol brass get thicker with repeated reloading?

Okay, I'll bite.

Where would the additional brass come from?

 

[LiveLife]

Doesn't pistol brass get thicker with repeated reloading?

Where would the additional brass come from?

Paddy, new brass case gets "shorter" as loaded round is fired from brass "bulging/expanding" to the chamber dimensions and many factory chambers are quite generous which is the discussion of this thread - "Glock bulge or smile" or overly expanding case wall thins case wall thickness.

When the fired brass gets resized (especially with push-through resizing with G-Rx/FCD), case gets reduced to the inside dimensions of the sizing die/carbide sizer ring but grows longer. Once case wall gets thinner, resizing does not increase the thickness of case wall.

As brass gets repeatedly fired and resized, brass also becomes work hardened with less malleability and increasingly brittle which eventually may lead to case wall failure by case neck split or by weakening of case base and rupture commonly known as KaBoom.

If your barrel overly expands brass, using barrel with tighter chamber decreases case wall expansion/thinning of brass/work hardening and I posted:

If your Glock brass consistently shows overly expanded bulge that cannot be removed by your resizing die at case base, using fully supported Lone Wolf barrel may be a good insurance as once brass gets thinner/weaker, you simply cannot make the case wall thicker/stronger even though you push through resize the case.

Many of us pick up mixed range brass with unknown number of reloading or condition of brass. If you shoot USPSA matches, you could be picking up 9mm Major brass that's been left by match shooters not wanting to reload that brass. Unfortunately, 9mm Major brass gets collected and put into distribution of mixed range brass by reloaders or by the range sold along with other once-fired brass.

I do not push-through resize my brass. When a case is harder to resize, I check to see if I see daylight between bottom of die and top of shell plate/holder. If I do, I will rotate the case 45 degrees and attempt to resize then check with tightest chambered barrel I have. If the case does not freely fall in and fully chamber with a "plonk", I will deem the case overly expanded/case wall thinned and toss the case for bulk metal recycling.

For these reasons, I have also been recommending reloaders use mid-to-high range load data with mixed range brass and reserve verified known once-fired brass for max loads. If your brass overly expands/bulges, you can also lower your powder charge or switch powders.

 

[firewrench044]

You have three choices
1 - scrap the bulged brass
2 - use a lee bulge buster on it
( or other brand )( Lee no longer has a bulge buster listed for 9MM )
( The Lee Factory Crimp Die (9mm Makarov ) that was used for 9mm was breaking when cases with a bigger than the case rim
was pushed through it ( FC, FEDERAL, Blazzer )
( you can still purchase the Bulge Buster and a 9mm Makarov Factory Crimp Die but the die will not be warrantied if used with the
bulge buster )
3 - Use an under size die on them
( works most of the time ) ( Lee has under size dies for the calibers you listed )
( this is what I have been using lately ( works good ))