GOA Accomplishments?

[RealGun]

The "weaseling" accusation just shows how juvenile this whole thing has become. My only answer is and has been to read the GOA website. I am not representing GOA as much as I am challenging the validity of this silly notion that one can prove a lobbyist's accomplishments, which you didn't do for NRA either BTW. That's the thing...no answer is good enough. No one actually wants a good answer, because that would spoil the premise.

 

[siglite]

I am challenging the validity of this silly notion that one can prove a lobbyist's accomplishments,

And realgun hits the nail on the head.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Prove it. Without referencing an NRA publication.

In Texas, Emergency Powers Act Amendments SB 112 was introduced by Senator John Carona from Dallas. Senator Carona went on record during the last legislative session as being asked by NRA ILA and the Texas State Rifle Association to look into the issues surrounding Katrina confiscations to make sure they could not happen in Texas.

At the same time State Rep. Frank Corte (San Antonio) introduced similar legislation, HB 258, in the Texas House. His introductory remarks also mentioned NRA specifically.

On March 20, 2007 the House version of this bill was considered in a public hearing in Austin. NRA ILA had a representative in the room and Congressman Corte again mentioned NRA bringing this to his attention.

I was in the room.

My only answer is and has been to read the GOA website.

You sit around and point to websites, run your mouth about this and that, asking for proof blah blah. Get out of your chair and do something. I did. I have driven to Austin more than once for gun related stuff, and I will do it again. You might be surprised what you see in the real world.

Out in the real world there is no question that NRA is working, trying at least. They are not perfect, politics sucks, but there are people that are trying. Sure it could be better, it could be MUCH better, but ILA is doing something.

I can assure you that no one from GOA was present that day nor have I EVER seen anyone from GOA present at ANY Texas pro 2A events in Austin or Dallas/Ft Worth.

As to the original thread asking about GOA accomplishments, it appears that GOA was responsible in large part for stopping the confirmation of Michael Sullivan to the Director of ATF position. I say it appears so because GOA is claiming credit for it, and I have seen no one else argue that or claim it themselves.

So there is one thing GOA did. That's not much. Most of their website space is spent bashing the NRA and that's not productive or helpful for anyone. GOA seems to do what it can, but their resources are limited. That they waste so much of their limited resources bashing the NRA proves, to me at least, that they are not sincere in trying to effect change.

 

[guil2000]

RealGun:

Your question has been answered numerous times, as in the proliferation of new CCW laws, Castle Doctorine laws, Katrina laws, etc. In all of these GOA was nowhere to be found, and some of their allies even opposed many of them as they were not "pure" enough for them.

Another one. The Junk Lawsuit ban was pushed by NRA, and actively opposed by GOA, due to the "compromise" of including a requirement for locks with all new handguns. This is after those effected (the manufacturers) agreed with it, and had actually been doing this for some time previously to the law going into effect. Yet, the GOA continued to attack the NRA for "caving in" long after the law had been passed. GOA themselves gave the NRA credit for this legislation. When you look at the number of lawsuits prior to this and then look at how many we have had since, I would say this legislation is serving its purpose. Wouldn't you?

 

[siglite]

I see a lot of people "saying" these things the NRA does, but I don't see anyone citing anything as evidence.

The realist in me assures me that the NRA probably DID these things. The problem comes in proving it.

So, prove it.

 

[guil2000]

I cannot understand this mentality here. Why can't someone just answer the original question? Why do the GOA supporters keep trying to throw things back at NRA? The GOA itself has given "credit" to NRA numerous times for various legislation, although they do it in such a way as to continue their attack on NRA.

Again, PLEASE, just answer the question and all this could be concluded very simply. And again, please don't say read the GOA web site, because even there I can find no mention of any legislation that GOA has been able to get enacted or repealed due to their own efforts.

 

[siglite]

Prove the NRA's gotten any legislation passed. And don't use any NRA publications to do it.

What's so hard about that?

It's just as simple, isn't it?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Prove the NRA's gotten any legislation passed. And don't use any NRA publications to do it.

What's so hard about that?

It's just as simple, isn't it?

I gave you very detailed information about this. That you choose to ignore it is YOUR problem.

Provide AT LEAST as good a source on GOA accomplishments please.

 

[siglite]

I missed it TXR. I'll go back and look for it.

 

[guil2000]

The NRA bashers themselves have given you your proof. Look at who they credit for the passing of the "Veterans Disarmament Act" as they call it. Look at the Junk Lawsuit ban. What more do you want? Many posters here have answered your question.

It is very funny, though, that now they want to argue that no one group can be given credit for anything. Except the NRA of course, when it is something they don't agree with.

Now, once again, please answer the original question.

 

[siglite]

Ah, I see it TXR, it's on this very page. Have anything to substantiate your claims? I'm not calling you a liar, specifically in instances where you were there, but we're asking for proof (as it seems is being demanded of GOA.)

 

[TexasRifleman]

Have anything to substantiate your claims? I'm not calling you a liar, specifically in instances where you were there, but we're asking for proof (as it seems is being demanded of GOA.)

Other than the 50 or 60 people in the room at the time and the congressional records and the fact that it's pretty commonly known around activist circles in Texas that NRA is busy here?

How about you provide at least as compelling evidence.

Like I say, there's not likely to be any evidence good enough for you guys so it doesn't really matter.

I could get Larry Pratt to say it out loud and you'd deny it. In fact Larry Pratt DID say it. Larry Pratt said himself that NRA was responsible for this "Veterans Disarmament" as he called it being passed.

There is little point in continuing this.

 

[RealGun]

There is little point in continuing this.

That's right, because once the ad hominem starts, it's over, just like any other GOA bashing thread.

 

[TexasRifleman]

hat's right, because once the ad hominem starts, it's over

Where'd you see that? I haven't seen that at all. What I have seen is the GOA supporters trying to change the argument.

The OP posed the question:

OK, this is long enough, but in closing I ask one question. I have asked this before numerous times elsewhere but never gotten an answer to it. Just what has GOA actually accomplished? Please provide one law passed due to their efforts or one law shot down due to GOA alone. Better yet, tell me something about their firearm training, educational, or safety programs. Tell me about self-defense laws GOA has gotten passed. Tell me about their efforts to further any of the shooting sports, or women’s programs, youth programs, range conservation, anything.

In 6 pages all we've seen is the GOA supporters try to turn it back on the NRA. It was a legitimate question. The second post in the thread was by a Mod stating that the question itself was fair as long as it didn't turn into GOA bashing. Asking questions critical of the GOA is not bashing.

That is has not been answered in 6 pages speaks much, that the thread has turned into NRA bashing instead speaks much more.

Whether you are a fan of the GOA or not, the fact that they have taken such a strong anti NRA approach over this one piece of legislation will probably be their undoing. I have personally sent GOA between 600-800 dollars over the years. They will never see another dime. I know MANY other folks who are of the same opinion. This tactic is going to seriously hurt GOAs intake of money, and they need money badly.

They have many good ideas. That GOA likes to take a more "hard lined" approach was one of the reasons I donated. NRA could be "publicity conscious" while GOA and SAF were like 2 pitbulls tearing meat off the bone. It worked out very well for a while.

At this point it appears that SAF and NRA are the only groups still actively working on changing things, GOA has moved to attacking those not really the enemy. If anyone is guilty of ad hominem attacks, it's GOA at this point.

I believe that over the next year or 2 we will see GOA disappear. If not completely then at least to a point of irrelevance.

That's too bad, but it was Larry Pratts' decision to take it that direction.

 

[Robert Hairless]

siglite:

December 30, 2007

At this point, Mr. Hairless, I stopped reading your post. I will no longer read ANY post you craft on this forum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4036431&postcount=96

siglite:

January 1, 2008

I didn't compromise anything. I complied with the laws of my state to avoid incarceration. If someone sticks a gun to your head and says "kick that puppy" it is not a "compromise" to kick the puppy. It is called compliance. It is force. But not according to Mr. Hairless.

My choices were "comply with the State/NRA" or "Prison." That is not compromise. That is compliance.

You've very bad at rhetoric and spin Robert. It's too easy to pick apart your dishonesties.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4043260&postcount=120

Siglite, please teach me that special trick of yours?

Two days ago you swore "I will no longer read ANY post you craft on this forum." Of course I believed you because I know you're a highly principled man who stands up for his ideals, never compromises, and doesn't believe in compromise. I know that because you say so a lot and because you argue against all who would compromise. You don't compromise, unless of course you're forced to by a corrupt Sheriff acting on behalf of a corrupt legislature that has been corrupted by the corrupt NRA.

Even if it looks like compromise, smells like compromise, walks like compromise, and even quacks like compromise it is not compromise when you do it. When you do it it's "compliance." These guys all got together to force you to get a Concealed Weapons Permit and comply with their demands. I got that, and I really like watching you do that. Do it again for me? I always liked the Rubber Man in carnival sideshows and the acrobats in the circus, and I enjoy seeing those performances on the Internet too.

At any rate, I don't agree with your characterization of all those people and organizations as corrupt and I don't for a moment think they are as you describe them, but I thought that at least you believed what you were saying.

But today you responded to messages I posted after you made your solemn oath not to read what I posted ever again. So you might have the Secret of How to Respond to People Without Ever Reading Their Posts, and that's a trick I'd like to learn.

I know you aren't reading my posts now because you said "I will no longer read ANY post you craft on this forum" and you are a principled, highly moral, uncompromising man who can pick apart my dishonesties easily, so of course you would not deceive or mislead anyone or exaggerate to make a point.

Or is it the corrupt NRA that's making you betray yourself? You explained your situation as the victim of NRA coercion: it was the NRA in league with the West Virginia legislature and the Sheriff that forced you to get a Concealed Weapons Permit so the NRA could make money from you.

Or maybe the NRA--or the Sheriff or the West Virginia legislature--took over your computer, reads my messages you swore not to read, and replies to those messages? Could be, I suppose, because everyone is out to get you. Really they are. Everyone.

But I trust you and I think that you probably do have the power to know what is in messages you don't read and that's the trick I would like to learn from you if you would teach it to me.

I also believe you when you say "You've very bad at rhetoric and spin Robert. It's too easy to pick apart your dishonesties." I'm sure you can do that trick too, because you've figured out how the NRA can make money from the required CWP course you took even though the NRA didn't charge or get a penny for it.

Let me say that again a few different ways? I'm sure it won't penetrate now because it hasn't penetrated yet. You read--or exercised your supernatural powers and didn't read--a previous message in which I responded to your charge that the NRA corrupted the West Virginia legislature, and yet you continue to make the same irresponsible and dense assertion. So I want to give it another try, not really for your sake but for the sake of anyone else who reads this thread and hasn't yet figured you out. Take a deep breath and let's see how many different ways I can say the same thing:

• The NRA does not get anything for Concealed Weapons Permit courses offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.
  
• The NRA does not get a fee for Concealed Weapons Permit courses offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.
  
• The NRA does not get money from Concealed Weapons Permit courses offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.
  
• The NRA does not get a penny, centavo, pence, pfennig, or a jot or a whit or tittle or a bushel or a peck or a hug around the neck from any Concealed Weapons Permit courses offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.

I think I can say it in even more ways but it's New Years Day and I'm kind of busy right now. Let me do it more generally.

The NRA gets nothing--or nada, rien, betsuni, niente, or the equivalent in any language that might pierce the confines of your rigidly enclosed mind--from anyone who takes a Concealed Weapons Permit course offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.

Not in West Virginia. Not anywhere else.

Nothing. No charge. Free. Gratis. You no pay NRA for CWP. NRA not take dough for CWP. None. Not any.

Not from anyone. Not from you. Not from me. Not from no one. Doesn't do it. Not directly or indirectly or eight ball in the side pocket.

The NRA does not even require NRA membership from anyone taking a Concealed Weapons Permit course offered by any NRA-certified Instructor.

Not from anyone. Not from you. Not from me. Not from no one. Doesn't do it.

You surely are not an NRA member, but you took the NRA course, and you got your West Virginia CWP.

As I said at the beginning of this message that you're not reading because you said you wouldn't, I don't have even the slightest illusion that you will change your mind. About anything.

Of course I am sure that you will come up with new and even more fanciful explanations--I think you used the word "spin"--for whatever it is you believe, and I'm equally sure that nobody here thinks I take you seriously any longer. I doubt that anyone but other GOA members take you seriously either.

A good GOA member never changes his mind, and so far as I can tell never even uses it, but relies entirely on belief. You are a believer. And since that's good enough for you, it's certainly good enough for me. But of course you no longer read ANY post I craft on this forum. (I like the word "craft," by the way, but I blush to see it applied to my writings. Yours are much craftier.)

 

[siglite]

I know, I know. I got sucked back into this thread. You are absolutely right. I should have just let it go.

But there are some falsities that should be addressed.

Where does one get NRA instructor training for free? Did they not obtain revenues from the instructor fees? I've seen the instructor certification courses offered for oh... $295 or so. Now granted, the NRA instructor can then charge what he wants, or nothing if he so desires. But to remain certified, does he have to pay NRA dues? And what about the marketing value of having "NRA" plastered across everything from the course name, to the certification, to the very LAW in the state of West Virginia. What did MCI pay to have that name put on that stadium in Landover Maryland a while back? Wasn't it in the hundreds of millions of dollars? Marketing weenies refer to, and will pay obscene dollars for this concept they refer to as "top of the mind awareness." Ugh. That was quite distasteful. I hate having to use portions of the marketing lexicon. Blech. But you made me do it.

No, pffft, the NRA gains nothing from their monopoly.

And you continue to call my obtaining a CCW in WV a compromise. I maintain that when your life or liberty is at threat, it is not a "compromise" by any stretch of the imagination. What happens if I don't comply and exercise what the framers called a "right endowed by our creator?" Prison. That's not compromise. Not by any definition. That is coercion and compliance with the coercion. I see you failed to understand this from my simple "kick the puppy at gunpoint" analogy. Oh well.

You explained your situation as the victim of NRA coercion: it was the NRA in league with the West Virginia legislature and the Sheriff that forced you to get a Concealed Weapons Permit so the NRA could make money from you.

Funny. I just presented the facts and realities on the ground here in my own state. Which... apparently, you know more about than I... Though, I appreciate the term you've provided in your characterization. "Coercion" is fairly accurate. Thanks.

because you've figured out how the NRA can make money from the required CWP course you took even though the NRA didn't charge or get a penny for it.

Yep! Sure did! Pointed it out in no uncertain terms. In addition, I provided some extremely valuable yet not quite so tangible benefits the NRA enjoys because of their legislated monopoly in my state.

And as for your bulleted list, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

You surely are not an NRA member, but you took the NRA course, and you got your West Virginia CWP.

You're right. My membership expired yesterday! I'll go set my membership card on fire shortly. Want pics? I'll take some. I'll need to find some lighter fluid first. And I'm watching some MMA on TV right now, so it'll probably be a bit later. Then, next week, I'm going to join GOA.

And you know what? You're wrong about the mind changing thing. That's how I wound up with an NRA membership to begin with. It's a long story. But someone was able to show me some benefits provided at the federal level last year (about one year and two weeks ago today). I had stated that if he could do that, I would join. He did, and I was good to my word and I joined.

Rest assured though, your commentary in this thread is helping to ensure that I do not renew. You presume to speak for the NRA, and seem to be all about "compromise." And you deny that the NRA sees financial benefit for their legislative monopoly on CCW training in WV. This is short-sighted beyond belief. But I know.... you know all about the realities in my home state. And you know all about the process I went through. And you know all about the requirements. Heheh, that was worth a chuckle.

Want piccys of the membership card on fire later?

 

[TexasRifleman]

. But to remain certified, does he have to pay NRA dues?

NRA instructors are NOT required to be NRA members.

NRA is a non profit so they cannot MAKE money off of anything they do but there are certainly costs associated with a train the trainer class.

The NRA does NOT lobby, that is illegal. The NRA-ILA is a different taxable entity that plays in politics, donations to that are NOT tax deductible.

NRA Instructor course Instructors are paid by the NRA to do "train the trainer" courses. You think they are going to do that for free?

And you deny that the NRA sees financial benefit for their legislative monopoly on CCW training in WV

Do you have any idea of the tax and legal ramifications if what you say were true? That kind of thing would result in the NRA being closed, assets seized by the IRS, and probably several folks going to jail. Go read what it means to have a 501(c)(3).

All that to sell a few classes in West Virginia, the thriving population center that it is?

There's no way in hell NRA "makes money" certifying instructors in WV. IN fact, it's a crime for them to do so.

 

[siglite]

NRA instructors are NOT required to be NRA members.

How does he get certified? Does he have to pay for a course?

NOTHING in this world is free.

 

[TexasRifleman]

How does he get certified? Does he have to pay for a course?

If you wish to be an NRA instructor you take a class from an NRA "Train the Trainer" instructor who can charge a fee for that, and the NRA charges an administration fee for processing the paperwork, doing the insurance program, paying secretaries to babysit it, all that crap.
NRA calls these "Training Counselors", these "train the trainer" people. It does cost a decent amount to become a Training Counselor since you have to go to NRA headquarters to be taught by NRA employees. There are not many Training Counselors ( I may not be getting all these titles right, it's been a while. I have a Range Safety Officer certification from NRA from years back, it's a whopping $25)

The training materials cost money to print, the targets cost money to buy, someone has to pay the electric bill at the range.

The NRA development costs of the training classes were eaten by NRA and are NOT passed on to students according to their documents on the program. You an download the PowerPoint slides for free for all of the NRA courses, but they cost money to print.

So when someone becomes an NRA accredited instructor the NRA sees very little of that money but they DO hold tight to who gets to be a "train the trainer" instructor to protect the integrity of the accreditation, just like any certification course would do.

Once a person is certified they can charge what they like and NRA only gets a yearly (might be 2 years, cant remember) renewal fee and another instructor again gets any continuing education fees for retraining. The NRA does NOT get a cut for each student taught.

There's just not any money in it for the NRA itself other than printing costs and some administrative overhead.

Now if an instructor wants to buy liability insurance for their business of instructing they have to be an NRA member, that's how the group policy is underwritten but that is optional and an entirely different topic.

 

[siglite]

Oh, so money is changing hands. And it's your position that the NRA does this at break-even or even takes a loss. I find that extremely unlikely. And we're talking direct cash. No one does anything with the intent of losing money. Assuming you're correct, and the *best* case scenario the NRA breaks even on cost, their marketing benefit, reaching the "consumer" so to speak is of enormous cash value. Enormous. Robert would contend that the NRA gains, what was it, "nada nothing zilch" (or something) from its legislated monopoly here. No. Freakin. Way.

And TXR, there's a reason there was a question mark after my question. I didn't know. Thanks for the information. I've learned something about the NRA certification/training structure.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Oh, so money is changing hands. And it's your position that the NRA does this at break-even or even takes a loss. I find that extremely unlikely.

You can find it any way you like, but the NRA most likely loses money in the certification game.

Just because you don't understand that does not mean it isn't true.

No one does anything with the intent of losing money.

Well you are wrong about that as well. That's sort of how charities work is it not? The NRA in a way is acting in a similar fashion here.

If you want to reduce it to greed, which you seem to be intent on doing, look at it this way;

If NRA has a certification that has respect and is recognized, and by bringing more people into the shooting sports by offering training classes, then perhaps some of these new shooters will join the NRA and contribute.

So, in that case, offering training AT A LOSS could even then be a winning strategy if you bring more people into the sport/activity of shooting.

You keep talking of the NRA as if it was a business but it isn't. Any business running the way NRA runs would be broke very soon. They have no customers, no products to sell, and it's against the law for them to have a profit margin. That is the nature of a non-profit organization.

As I have said in this thread before to you, just because you do not like it or understand it does not make it any less true.

Are you familiar with the "Eddie Eagle" program from NRA? That one is totally free. (the stupid birdman costume is VERY expensive, but that's because it's made by some professional costume shop, NRA doesn't get any of that money either. It's like 3 grand)

What about the "Refuse to be a Victim" seminars? Seen those? Those are taught by volunteers and the NRA will provide the printed materials for free. Free from NRAs perspective, instructors can always charge whatever they think the market will bear but NRA doesn't get a per student cut.

THAT is what the NRA dues go for. NRA dues CANNOT be used for lobbying purposes.

Certainly there are fees to become a certified instructor in all of the areas NRA offers certification, but that's not a profit business, it simply can't be.

You have it in your head that the entire NRA worked against the IRS codes, the Federal Election laws, and the State of West Virginia to pull some kind of fast one on you poor citizens there in order to reap the fast cash rewards of CCW training.

That is simply a ridiculous assertion, that NRA committed multiple crimes in order to teach CCW classes for your state.

 

[siglite]

TXR, you kind of just summarized my point for me. That's all "marketing value." A slightly less tangible but incredibly valuable function.

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's all "marketing value." A slightly less tangible but incredibly valuable function.

So you are saying the NRA is bad because they do things to try to encourage more people to take up the shooting sports?

I guess I'm pretty much lost as to what you think is proper for a pro shooting organization to do.

 

[siglite]

Not at all TXR.

I'm simply stating that the NRA benefits from their legislated monopoly on CCW training in WV. And it sounds like you're conceding that, since you've now switched your argument to "so the NRA shouldn't do community things?" Wasn't part of the question, wasn't part of the discussion. The legislated NRA monopoly on CCW training in WV is what Robert decided to make the center of the discussion. Based on his intimate knowledge, he presumes.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The legislated NRA monopoly on CCW training in WV

Just remember always that it was the Legislature of West Virginia that did that, not NRA. For NRA to do that would be a violation of Federal Election laws and a serious crime.

You must stop insisting that is what happened, you are totally out of line in making that accusation.