Got a couple of old firearms to clean: National Fire Arms Co. 12 gauge

[C5rider]

A friend of mine handed me a couple of shot guns, an over/under and a couple of top-breaks and said "here, see what you can do with these."

They have the typical wear and rust. Likely some were "barn guns" back in the day. He got 'em from his grandfather I believe. So far as I can tell, there are no national treasures here, only family heirlooms. He's not looking at getting them firing again, but basically cleaning up the rust/corrosion and stopping the aging process as best as possible.

There are several that we'll be taking a look at, and each one has its own problems. The first one that I'd like to introduce is the pump 12-gauge with the wording "National Fire Arms Co." and 12-Ga. down by the receiver. The serial # is under the receiver but I've not found the barrel serial # or choke. I understand they are located down there by the receiver # and they used a letter for the choke. I've not located any such number/letter yet.

Not being familiar with the company, I hit the 'net. Apparently the gun was manufactured by Marlin and is an 1898 model 12-gauge pump shotgun. Here's what my Google-fu has conjured up so far:

National Firearms Company was a trade name used on firearms made for May Hardware Company of Washington, DC and Moskowitz and Herbach Company of Philadelphia, PA. Your pump gun was manufactured by Marlin Firearms Company. The best information I can find is that it is a Model 1898, made 1898-1905, or one of the successors, Models 16, 17, 19, 21, 24 or 26. Each of these models was claimed to be an improvement of the previous one and all basically looked alike in profile. It seems that Marlin made improvements every 2 years or so and made a new model.

Barrels were 26 to 32-inch and were designed to shoot nitro powder. The barrel serial number usually does not match the receiver serial number and the type of choke inside the barrel is designated with a letter (F for full, M for modified and C for cylinder bore or open choke) next to the barrel serial number. In 1902 Sears & Roebuck offered them for $17.25 to $28.00 in their catalog. The Winchester Model 1897 cost $17.82 that same year. The grip was a modified Prince of Wales affair. The Marlin 1898's have a pistol-grip stock. The Models 17 and 21 came with a straight-grip. The Model 17 is a solid frame, while the 21 is a take-down frame. This gun has a straight-grip and take down frame. This particular model was only made in 1907 and 1908. There seems to be a following for these types of Marlins and I've discovered they are widely used in cowboy action shooting.

Value of Marlin exposed hammer slide action guns ranges from $100 to $325 depending on model, grade, mechanical condition and remaining original finish. Value of a trade name gun would be reduced by 20%. The National Fire Arms Company was started in 1864, they made an exposed hammer in 1864 & 65, They made a .22 cal. until 1884. In 1904 they sold the pat. to Marlin who made a model 17 & 30 from 1907-1917. If the makings say National Fire Arms (3 words) it was made by the National Fire Arms Co. I do know that Marlin manufactured a model 30 under the name of National Firearms (2 words) for hardware stores from 1915-1917.

I have collected these for some time & have an owner’s manual for an 1864 shotgun & part of a manual for a 1882 .22 cal. It is hard to find info. on the computer, as they all refer you to Marlin. The Marlin is a $250.00 gun in good condition, the National is worth a lot more. But remember the National was a black powder cartridge gun so do not use a heavy load of smokeless powder.

So, it doesn't appear to be of extreme value, nor extremely gunked up, but I'll take the time and clean it for him and possibly get some documentation so he has some info about his granddad's old gun. I don't have any pictures right now as I just got home, but will rectify that tomorrow.

Anyone have any experience with these guns or like to share any insights? It'll likely get a good scrubbin' tomorrow or the next day. Nothing too drastic though. The ol' girl is still getting used to sunlight!

 

[boom boom]

One, be careful of the wood. You might want to detach if able when cleaning the metal--stocks also often hide corrosion that can make firing the gun hazardous. I would suggest stock cleaning with something called Murphy's Oil Soap first. Then reapply natural wood oils such as linseed (or tung) in thin coats to restore the wood. Thin the linseed or tung with turpentine first to get as much penetration for the first coat. Then apply additional thin coats as needed also within the barrel and receiver channel.

On the metal, depends--certainly clean the dirt off with some sort of detergent. Then you get variance--some worship the "patina" and believe deep cleaning is a sacrilege. Others use penetrating oil (Kroil is one of the best) and the like to get rid of rust and corrosion.

 

[Jim Watson]

Trying to be only moderately alarmist. Some people will shoot the Marlin hammer pumps, some won't. SASS does not allow them in CAS.

 

[boom boom]

Sorry, events came up so I shortened my original post. This may seem overkill, but I have disassembled and thoroughly cleaned a bunch of old military surplus and other firearms and these are some hard lessons learned. I have made mistakes before by either hurrying, using improper tools, or losing some parts for a time. So take what I say as things that I learned doing this sort of thing.

Try to remove the dirt and associated crud from the metal first by using something like Big Green, Krudcutter, etc. detergent type cleaners and plenty of disposable rags/shop towels. If you have nylon type brushes such as old toothbrushes, they work well. True copper or bronze brushes can also help break up the harder stuff. Avoid steel brushes if you can help it at this stage. Bamboo bbq skewers work pretty well as picks and are cheaper than the plastic picks for removing crud and dirt from actions. Use the steel picks only where results won't be seen as if they slip (usually inside actions and the like)--they can cause scratches. Depending on what the crud is, odorless mineral spirits can work to remove it, and sometimes acetone (use sparingly and in a well ventilated space without flames).

Then depending on the level of rust and corrosion you find, there are several options. Light penetrating type oils (best of them is Kroil) can work underneath the rust and then the rust can be removed by either lightly scrubbing and dabbing the rust particles off on a paper towel using bronze/copper wool (not the plated stuff but true Choreboy copper is what is wanted), very light rust can be removed with Flitz polishing agent in using a rough paper towel in many cases, heavier rust can require multiple passes with the bronze wool or using 0000 steel wool (controversial among some). Using coarser steel wool, emery cloth, etc. usually will remove any bluing along with the rust. Be careful about using Scotchbrite type pads as these often have pretty coarse abrasives that will remove bluing and may etch/scratch the surface. There is also a product that I have used called Blue Wonder Rust removal that does a good job along with Kroil.

Badly rusted areas usually leave pitting after the rust removal so be aware. However, leaving the rust alone will simply feed the fire unless you cut off air to the rust--though any penetration of the cover allows the rust to continue.

I am assuming that you have your own procedures on cleaning bores and the like so I won't get into this.

Last but not least, if you are disassembling and do not have the proper hollow ground tips that exactly fit the screws then stop. Buggering up old firearm screws with regular screwdrivers makes it difficult or impossible to remove and does affect the value. Similarly, use the correct type and sized punches--usually bronze/brass punches or nylon work for most unless you absolutely need a steel punch. Then cover the area around with masking tape, etc. to protect the surrounding area if you slip with the punch. Make sure the item is immovable if you are trying to hammer out a tight pin which means clamps, etc. Lashing with something like surgical tubing or even twine can work if done correctly.

If you are disassembling, check with Numrich parts for their schematics on your particular firearm or the NRA gunsmithing books, dissassembly manuals, or online at somewhere like Steve's pages which has a lot of old manuals for firearms online. If you understand how it comes apart before doing it, it is easier to reassemble. Also use a clean room to do the disassembly as springs, pins, etc. can pop out and disappear seemingly forever. If nothing else, get a white paper painter's tarp to spread around the disassembly area as parts show up on these and the coarse paper seems to keep them from bouncing off to nowhere.

 

[C5rider]

Great information boom boom. Thank you for sharing. And yes Jim, shooting the gun is suspect with modern loads. I do seriously doubt that the owner will even consider doing so. This is merely to prevent any more damage to the firearm, not to get it serviceable.

I had to do some travel for work today, so I didn't get a chance to shoot any photos, but I will rectify that issue soon! I promise!

 

[C5rider]

Got some photos today. I'm well past the first rule of firearms and already checked the chamber was empty, then I tried to look down the bore and couldn't see any light. So, I got a flashlight, STILL no light! Kind of an eerie feeling... Couldn't see a shell from the chamber and can't see light from the bore, so when I shined the light down into the barrel, I found a cotton ball stuffed down into the bore. Didn't much care for that form of caring for a barrel.

Everything operated pretty much as it should, save for being a little stiff after all these years. I've still got to do a deep cleaning, but thought I'd get a few photos of the firearm for you all so you can see what we have here. I'm thinking that the "M" at the end of the barrel serial # means Modified choke? BTW: this is NOT the firearm serial #.

 

[boom boom]

Got some photos today. I'm well past the first rule of firearms and already checked the chamber was empty, then I tried to look down the bore and couldn't see any light. So, I got a flashlight, STILL no light! Kind of an eerie feeling... Couldn't see a shell from the chamber and can't see light from the bore, so when I shined the light down into the barrel, I found a cotton ball stuffed down into the bore. Didn't much care for that form of caring for a barrel.

Everything operated pretty much as it should, save for being a little stiff after all these years. I've still got to do a deep cleaning, but thought I'd get a few photos of the firearm for you all so you can see what we have here. I'm thinking that the "M" at the end of the barrel serial # means Modified choke? BTW: this is NOT the firearm serial #.

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I found a wad of packed clay dirt in a bore once on a Mauser 71/84. I dislike things that prevent air circulation in the bore as I think it promotes rust.

If you don't want to refinish the stock which appears in pretty good shape other than the scrapes on the clear finish (think that it would be lacquer (basically clear paint) instead of varnish (paint with stain in it), here is a link to fixing scratches in lacquer https://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-repair-scratches-in-lacquer-wood-finish Here is a thread that is stock repair specific--https://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?285118-Lacquer-Stick-Stock-Repair and a general one that is addressed to furniture repairs but the techniques work for stocks as well.
https://www.thisoldhouse.com/how-to/how-to-fix-furniture-finish

A shellac finish will dissolve in wood alcohol and thus a shellac top coat is even easier to fix. Lacquer/varnish will dissolve in lacquer thinner. I doubt that for the age it is polyurethane.

One thing if you dismount the action is to make sure to seal the interior wood surfaces of the barrel channel and receiver wood with something like BLO or tung oil. The initial coat's penetration will be help with just a bit of turpentine mixed in. Be sure though to dunk the rags or whatever you use to apply and wipe the oil based finished stuff in water as they can self combust in the right circumstances (this includes used blo rags etc.) and I would advise putting them outside so the volatiles in those oils can dissipate. The rags (and the stock can) also stink if you are doing a big job so removal to outside the house's ac system is prudent.

 

[C5rider]

Got a chance to do some work on the 12 Gauge, open-hammer pump.

I started by reading through this web page from the Marlin Collectors forum (http://marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8880) and began tearing the ol' girl down. I don't know what form of highway asphalt they used to lube these guns with, but it was a bear! I think the stuff was turning BACK into a dinosaur! After getting everything scrubbed clean, I began re-assembly. It was a huge help having that website handy and I only put enough grease or oil to keep things running smoothly and prevent rust. This isn't a shooter.

Only thing I found that may be an issue is the hammer has the safety notch chipped off in one area. Again, not an issue as this firearm is not intended to be fired, only preserved. The photo isn't the greatest, but you'll get the idea.

A surprise to me, the barrel came out pretty much rust free. I was a bit concerned with the wad I found in it earlier. Now, the action works much better and it operates like a new gun. Since it IS likely 100 years old, and the bluing is thin/gone and this is not a restoration project, merely preservation, it looks like a 100 year old gun. Hope you like it!

Now on to another specimen! I'll do a separate thread on that one.

 

[bannockburn]

C5rider

I don't know what form of highway asphalt they used to lube these guns with, but it was a bear! I think the stuff was turning BACK into a dinosaur!

Nice work on preserving the old Marlin shotgun! I remember a number of years ago I was at a car dealer that had taken in a car with an engine that had gone well over 50,000 miles without a single oil change! The manufacturer was buying the engine from the dealer just so they could study it and check the dimensions on it. I saw what use to be oil inside the engine...you're right about it turning back into a dinosaur! It reminded me of the La Brea Tar Pits!

 

[MikeInOr]

Beautiful old weapons! Be sure not to over clean them! Removing crud and gunk is fine but what some consider rust others consider patina... and removing the patina will often lower the value of the weapon. I wouldn't put anything on the wood either.

My favorite cleaner is a steam cleaner. It does a fantastic job of blasting away dirt, grime and cosmoline without any chemicals. I like using the steam cleaner on wood too... but you have to be careful on wood as the steam can melt and remove some finishes.