Got training?

[ShackleMeNot]

I'm probably preaching to the choir by posting this in the Training forum but PLEASE make training a priority in 2007. Don't buy the latest gadget or another gun to put in your safe and fire once a year. Chances are you have enough guns and YOU are the weak link in your ability to defend yourself.

Combatives, knife, pistol, long gun, medical, driving... There are plenty of training options ALL of which can be life saving and most of which are very under-trained.

Stop buying more guns you won’t shoot. Stop wasting ammo at the range. Make 2007 the year you invest in yourself.

 

[hoji]

Brilliant post.
Couldn't have said it better.

 

[MCgunner]

I've really never been able to quite justify going to one of those high dollar places like "thunder ranch" to learn how to clear a room or what not. I'm simply and armed citizen. I shoot expert level in IDPA, can handle a firearm fairly well. I practice as much as I can. I know how to drive and I'm way above average as a motorcycle rider. I'm simply an armed citizen. I have no business clearing rooms or playing ninja. If I get accosted as I was once, I'll do what it takes. I have a gun, I can shoot. Beyond that I know about cover, tactical order and tac and speed reloades and such from IDPA shooting. I hope that's enough because I have neither the time nor the money nor the will to go take some training course for armed ninjas. I'm sure they can be fun, but it ain't for me on my budget.

 

[GEM]

Tis the season to be training - bang, bang,bang - and bang, bang, bang.

I find it hard to get some 'gun' folks to train. They view themselves as great warriors and probably great lovers.

As I said before in some fora - training entails the risk of losing dominance as you have to acknowledge that someone knows something more manly than you. You stand the risk of looking stupid in a manly, dominance endeavour - thus - IMHO - opinion - many 'gun' folks stay untrained.

I've read that women are easier to train as they don't go through the manly resistance to instruction you get from guys.

I regard screwing up (as I have done plenty) as meaningful diagnostics and learning experiences - however, it took me awhile to come to that state of awareness.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

I've really never been able to quite justify going to one of those high dollar places like "thunder ranch" to learn how to clear a room or what not. I'm simply and armed citizen. I shoot expert level in IDPA, can handle a firearm fairly well. I practice as much as I can. I know how to drive and I'm way above average as a motorcycle rider. I'm simply an armed citizen. I have no business clearing rooms or playing ninja. If I get accosted as I was once, I'll do what it takes. I have a gun, I can shoot. Beyond that I know about cover, tactical order and tac and speed reloades and such from IDPA shooting. I hope that's enough because I have neither the time nor the money nor the will to go take some training course for armed ninjas. I'm sure they can be fun, but it ain't for me on my budget.

Ninjas?

Take a class and then we can talk about what is or isn't taught at training and how prepared you were before you took training.

Your Mindset needs some serious work. You don't know what is taught at professional training but you still make fun of it and say it isn't important. You hope you are ready to fight for your life by just shooting IDPA and I hope you don't come up short but if you think IDPA is training for fighting for your life you are fooling yourself.

"High dollar"? How many guns do you own? More than one? More than 5? More than 10? I bet you've bought a gun that cost more than a class in the last few years. Training will always be too expensive if you see it as unimportant and only for "armed ninjas".

 

[GoRon]

I suspect there are more "ninjas" in IDPA and the like than in the real training classes.

 

[Mike_in_OC]

ShackleMeNot has a valid point. I also mountain bike, and it seems like there are guys with a lot more money than skill. Guys riding 3500.00 bikes getting toasted by guys with 500.00 bikes. I'm not knocking them... I wish I could spend that much. But I'd rather use my gear to the best of its ability.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

No Substitute for Good Solid Training

As both a trainer and a trainee, I know personally that we should never stop learning and expanding our skills. But a training course does not an expert make. Practice of the skills acquired is the key. Practice, more practice, then some "touch up" training to fine-tune the points that fade with time.

There is a wide diversity in the quality of training available and a high degree of self-promotion by some who mean well but know not as much as they'd like to think. The best trainers in my opinion go "back to school" from time to time to sharpen both their practical / tactical skills and their ability to teach others.

We owe to ourselves and anyone else we might defend to be as up to date and current as we can be. New improvements in both technology and application continue to evolve, and we should update our skills in all respects to take advantage of it.

 

[Clipper]

Apparently Gem thinks training is necessary to be a manly man... I suppose there are some who might benefit from some types of training, but blanket statements like that are no better than the blanket statements the antis make, and makes you sound like a wannabe Mall Ninja. Get yourself all tacticaled up if you want, but start in on me because I fail to see a personal need, and I'm gonna tell you what corner to get off...

 

[MCgunner]

High dollar"? How many guns do you own? More than one?

Not that it's anyone's business, but I bought all my guns over my years that I had a job. I lost my job at age 51, 3 years ago, just a year before retirement qualified. I have no medical insurance and have a blood condition I must treat called "thrombocyctosis". I got to the point last year that I decided I couldn't afford the drugs and CBCs anymore for the oncologist I had seen. My wife wasn't working, waiting to hear from Social Security on her disability. Well, 3 months and I got a blood clot in my leg I'm just now getting over with the help of some samples of plavix they had at the clinic. I think that was a warning, better pain in the toes than a stroke in the brain. I'm going to have to pay out of pocket to continue treatment, but so long as I can get a prescription or go to Mexico and buy the drug in bulk (don't even need a prescription down there) I can self medicate (500mg Hydrea 3x a day if you're a doctor). It's a rare desease and a rare drug and I don't know if I can get it in Mexico. Would be nice since I wouldn't have to see a doc down there for a prescription and could get a couple of years worth at a time. I have a doc here I think will give me a prescription when I need it, pay him out of pocket. He knows of my lack of insurance and my condition.

Anyway, my total taxable income was 12K last year and we lived on it. My wife finally got put on social security disability this summer and I got a business out of the hole and rolling somewhat now, so things ARE looking up. But, needless to say, firearms training is not in my future. I'll just take my chances if I ever need to use the firearm. I've had to quit my motorcycle racing AND don't shoot IDPA anymore, but at 30 bucks a year, I can afford our gun club/range.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Apparently Gem thinks training is necessary to be a manly man... I suppose there are some who might benefit from some types of training, but blanket statements like that are no better than the blanket statements the antis make, and makes you sound like a wannabe Mall Ninja. Get yourself all tacticaled up if you want, but start in on me because I fail to see a personal need, and I'm gonna tell you what corner to get off...

Have you ever taken professional training? How do you know what is taught? How do you know what benefit training has if you have never had any?

 

[Clipper]

Shackle...

...Only Uncle Sam and my own common sense. And a training harrangue from a 'trainer' is about like the arguments a car salesman makes for getting out of my 2 year old truck for his 'new & improved' model...Sounds a little too self-serving to take seriously. But you go ahead, there's no shortage of people who go through life afraid...

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Not that it's anyone's business, but I bought all my guns over my years that I had a job. I lost my job at age 51, 3 years ago, just a year before retirement qualified. I have no medical insurance and have a blood condition I must treat called "thrombocyctosis". I got to the point last year that I decided I couldn't afford the drugs and CBCs anymore for the oncologist I had seen. My wife wasn't working, waiting to hear from Social Security on her disability. Well, 3 months and I got a blood clot in my leg I'm just now getting over with the help of some samples of plavix they had at the clinic. I think that was a warning, better pain in the toes than a stroke in the brain. I'm going to have to pay out of pocket to continue treatment, but so long as I can get a prescription or go to Mexico and buy the drug in bulk (don't even need a prescription down there) I can self medicate (500mg Hydrea 3x a day if you're a doctor). It's a rare desease and a rare drug and I don't know if I can get it in Mexico. Would be nice since I wouldn't have to see a doc down there for a prescription and could get a couple of years worth at a time. I have a doc here I think will give me a prescription when I need it, pay him out of pocket. He knows of my lack of insurance and my condition.

Anyway, my total taxable income was 12K last year and we lived on it. My wife finally got put on social security disability this summer and I got a business out of the hole and rolling somewhat now, so things ARE looking up. But, needless to say, firearms training is not in my future. I'll just take my chances if I ever need to use the firearm. I've had to quit my motorcycle racing AND don't shoot IDPA anymore, but at 30 bucks a year, I can afford our gun club/range.

I feel for your situation and I'm glad to hear that things are looking up. Your situation is no doubt difficult but your life has no less worth just because you have medical and financial problems. I am not you but I would sell a gun or two to take a class that taught me how to use the rest of the guns I kept.

There are free/low cost options for training. You can host us or several other training organizations and you will train for free. Free is pretty cheap. Yes, you still have to pay for ammo and you'll have to put forth some effort to find a hosting range but it's an option for free training. I know of at least one training group that is being organizing in Texas by a student of ours that will get together a group of like-minded people who have training to practice their skills. I don't think they are charging anything and I'm sure training with them would be worth the time and effort.

There is always a way for those who make something a top priority. I'm simply asking gun owners to make training a higher priority.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

...Only Uncle Sam and my own common sense. And a training harrangue from a 'trainer' is about like the arguments a car salesman makes for getting out of my 2 year old truck for his 'new & improved' model...Sounds a little too self-serving to take seriously. But you go ahead, there's no shortage of people who go through life afraid...

Sure. Self-serving. That's exactly why I beat the drum for training. I haven't asked anyone to train with ME. Just that they train somewhere.

Why do you post in the TRAINING section in a thread about TRAINING if you think it isn't important?

Hmmmm.

 

[JohnL2]

Will you subsidize my range fees and ammo expenditures? I'm all there buddy!

 

[MCgunner]

Heard some guys talking about Thunder Ranch at an IDPA shoot once. This guy is all tactical right down to his Ed Brown. He was telling some guy he took and 10K rounds with him so he would be sure not to run out... Think he fired a couple thousand over a week or something. Even handloading it, that's a chunk a change..

I know they teach (or taught, might have gone out of business since, heard something like that) all sorts of classes for LEOs and such. I read about some of it in magazines.

I've got nothing against people doing any sort of training they want. Heck, it's probably fun for them. The guy at the shoot had even done some "tactical rifle" training. Just what I need, learn how to be a sniper. I never had the time when I was working and racing, but some folks have different past times. Now, I've got the time, but not the cash. Never really did have the desire. I'm WAY far more at risk of a stroke than I am of a bad guy shooting me. At least I have plenty of thrombocytes to clot the wound with.

 

[Chris Rhines]

One small comment.

Professional instruction is a good and worthy thing. It's always better to be good at something than bad. But training without practice is worthless. If the only time you touch your pistol is at the 5-day Gunsite class, you're not doing yourself a whole lot of good.

If you're going to carry a gun or keep one for protection, it is your responsibility to be keep in practice. Spend lots of time at the range.

- Chris

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Training without practice is not worthless but it is much less effective.

We use the following analogy:

You buy a new car by making a large down payment and you get to take the car home with you but you don't yet own it. You have to make consistent payments or you will quickly find out that your car has been repossessed. If you make all your payments you will eventually own your car. You still need to pay for upkeep and routine maintenance but that isn't the same as having to make a full car payment.
A training class will make the down payment on your new Mindset, tactics and skills but you don't yet own them. You have to go home and put in your own time with quality practice to eventually own your skills.

In my opinion you should have training before practice other wise most people aren’t going to know what to practice and will get much less value from their sessions.

 

[Zak Smith]

Excellent top post!

1. mindset, 2. tactics, 3. skill, 4. equipment

Under stress, people don't "rise to the occasion", they default to their level of training.

Being overly concerned with gear, knowing that training is more important, is a mindset issue.

 

[El Tejon]

Mall ninjas? You obviously want an "Urban Rifle" class. Those classes are mall ninja fly paper.

 

[VaughnT]

Back in the day when I worked for an armored car company, I thought I was quite the pistolero.

I went from never really shooting a pistol to getting out to the range (on my own time/dime) and shooting for accuracy at 25yd at least twice a month. When I got a slot to try for my NC armed certification, all that training paid off.

I kid you not, I shot a perfect score doing things I had never done before. Low light, no light, flashlights, one hand, off hand, you name it. I shot 300/300 on both the day and night courses!

Talk about a headrush!!! I was the best of the best, the Green Beret/Navy SEAL of the outfit. WooHoo!!!!!!

I was so full of myself that I made sure to attend the next local IDPA match. I got my ass handed to me.

That's right, I was awesome on a square range where I didn't move out of the lane with my target. But stick me into an open range with 180* of firing, with targets that move, a timer running and a crew of people watching my every move..... OMG, did I suck!

I thought I was something, but that IDPA match brought something of the reality of combat to the forefront of my mind.

I promptly signed up for a Suarez course on close-range pistol fighting....and got my ass handed to me again.

Even though I had become addicted to shooting the IDPA and IPSC matches on a regular basis, and had become somewhat proficient at shooting from awkward positions and under pressure, it wasn't anything like what was asked to do at the class. The class wasn't harder than a match, it was just different and that was enough to throw me.

And don't even ask about the Trident Concepts course with Jeff Gonzales.

Professional training can't hurt anything other than the ego.

 

[BullfrogKen]

OK. This wandered off topic way too quickly.

ShackleMeNot, you are welcome to try to start this thread again. I'm not locking the topic, I'm locking the degredation of the thread into personal attacks.

Anyone want to debate this personal stuff further, do it off line, via PM.

Anyone who doesn't value training, and doesn't have anything to add other than "training is for mall ninjas and tactical wannabees" . . . STAY OUT of the thread. This is S&T, and its boorish to come into an S&T thread about the value of training and crap all over it.