Greenwood Park Mall Shooting

[Good Ol' Boy]

So far as I have read Eli Dickenson (22yo) fired 10 shots from around 40yds, with 8 of them making contact with the shooter. Add to that the PC said this happened in a matter of 15 seconds based on video.

I saw a photo of the shooter deceased and it looked like he had GSW's in his arm, leg and upper chest.

The point of this thread is not only the distance factor but the act itself. Many on here, including myself, have advocated unassing the situation at distances that great or more. But in this case it certainly saved lives undoubtedly.

That brings also into question at what distances we train. I normally train at 12-15yds. Occassionally I'll do some work at 25yds. I have shot at 50-100yds with my pistol "just for fun" but I'm not that good at it. Less than 50% hit ratio, and its not fast by any means.

The only thing I've read on Dickens gear is that it was a Glock he was carrying. Don't know if it was equipped with an RDS or if he was just using irons. Also don't know what kind of Glock. I did read that he braced himself against a post/column in order to take the longer distance shots.

So the questions here are what would you do, how confident are you at those distances and do you regularly train at those distances?

Would you engage or get you and yours out of dodge?

 

[Blue Jays]

Superb tactical, shooting, and situational performance by this young man. Good job.
He reportedly started closing the distance and simultaneously directed innocents to flee.

In my situation (with a 40-yard start) and as a subdued "gray" individual…I would seek cover and exits.
I have more sunsets behind me than sunrises ahead. I do well and my employer would terminate me.

At this juncture in my life I meaningfully benefit far more people by not being a hero and remaining alive.
This is likely a sliding assessment for many. The game changes if me and mine are specifically targeted.

 

[Jeff White]

So far as I have read Eli Dickenson (22yo) fired 10 shots from around 40yds,

30 feet is what most of the sources I’ve read say. Like all of these situations the reporting, done by people who don’t know anything about what they are reporting on and often have an agenda to push is all over the place.

So the questions here are what would you do, how confident are you at those distances and do you regularly train at those distances?

Would you engage or get you and yours out of dodge?

The answer is, it depends. We really don’t have any reliable information about what really happened. I’ve heard that he was 40 yards away when the shooting started and advanced on the shooter before he engaged, I’ve heard he engaged from 40 yards and I’ve heard he engaged from 30 feet. We probably won’t have reliable information as to what really happened for months.

I wouldn’t recommend that anyone draw any conclusions or change their training routine based on the information we have now.

Another thing to consider is that there is no guarantee the next situation or the situation you might find yourself in will look anything like this one. The 4th of July shooter fired from a rooftop.

Even if the young man did engage from 40 yards, what are the chances the same conditions will be there the next time?

 

[.38 Special]

It is an interesting story, and of course we still are in the "fog of war". Details will follow, hopefully, in time.

It pains me to say this as a revolver man, but the lesson appears to be to carry and train with the most accurate and highest capacity handgun you can manage. I am thinking more and more about ditching my trusty K frame in favor of a 10+1 (In California, 10 round magazines are the legal limit) S.A. auto with an optic.

Beyond that, my hat is off to the gentleman in question, who meets every definition of "hero". I can hit a moving target every time at 40 yards, on a square range with a race gun. In a shopping mall, with a stock Glock, against a rifleman, in the chaos and stress of that sort of scene? I assume the fellow just wants to be let alone, but if he ever offers a lesson I will be there hat in hand.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

30 feet is what most of the sources I’ve read say. Like all of these situations the reporting, done by people who don’t know anything about what they are reporting on and often have an agenda to push is all over the place.


The answer is, it depends. We really don’t have any reliable information about what really happened. I’ve heard that he was 40 yards away when the shooting started and advanced on the shooter before he engaged, I’ve heard he engaged from 40 yards and I’ve heard he engaged from 30 feet. We probably won’t have reliable information as to what really happened for months.

I wouldn’t recommend that anyone draw any conclusions or change their training routine based on the information we have now.

Another thing to consider is that there is no guarantee the next situation or the situation you might find yourself in will look anything like this one. The 4th of July shooter fired from a rooftop.

Even if the young man did engage from 40 yards, what are the chances the same conditions will be there the next time?

Like you I've read everything from 40ft to 40yds, but its been overwhelmingly the latter.

You don't know that circumstances would be the same, but is that not still food for thought? At least as far as distances when training.

You also didn't mention what YOU would do, given your perspective, which is part of the discussion. Let's assume for the moment that it IS the 40yds many are claiming.

I've also read there IS video of this event (not surprising given the environment). Hopefully we will all get to see it eventually. It would certainly be beneficial to those that EDC.

 

[gila_dog1]

A picture was posted in this thread:

This pic was posted yesterday, allegedly Eli was standing behind the pillar, the shooter was in front of the corridor in the background.
Not sure if it's factual.
Also not sure if all shots fired by Eli at the shooter came from one position.
View attachment 1090979

If that picture is genuine, and really is the place where the shooting took place, then the range was more like 30 or 40 feet, not yards.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Superb tactical, shooting, and situational performance by this young man. Good job.
He reportedly started closing the distance and simultaneously directed innocents to flee.

In my situation (with a 40-yard start) and as a subdued "gray" individual…I would seek cover and exits.
I have more sunsets behind me than sunrises ahead. I do well and my employer would terminate me.

At this juncture in my life I meaningfully benefit far more people by not being a hero and remaining alive.
This is likely a sliding assessment for many. The game changes if me and mine are specifically targeted.

That is certainly a fair assessment of the situation.

I just don't know if I could sleep at night knowing I could have done something. But could I? At that distance I don't know.

Thats the whole point of this thread.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

A picture was posted in this thread:


If that picture is genuine, and really is the place where the shooting took place, then the range was more like 30 or 40 feet, not yards.

I've also seen diagrams of the food court that show where Dickens was and where the bathroom was that the shooter emerged from. In those situations its a heck of a lot more than 30-40ft.


It would really be nice if some internet savvy person were to get a hold of the video that the PC won't release. That would answer a lot of questions as well as be educational.

 

[jmorris]

So the questions here are what would you do, how confident are you at those distances and do you regularly train at those distances?

I am confident hitting 8” plates at 25 yards with certainty with my smallest Glock (26). I often see how many I can get with a mag at 60 yds, just because it’s the distance from the rear shop door to the bullet trap and what do you do with ammunition your rotating out?

I am happy he was there. Much more happy that I was not.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Training for only one kind of scenario is dumb. Training for a variety scenarios, in appropriate ratios, is smart.

 

[Hartkopf]

From the mall pictures I’ve seen, my first thought would be to charge the gunman. Close the gap and be precise on the way in. I know what that might get me. This depends on several factors but the main reason I would not run is because you can’t get far enough away quick enough.

I’ve practiced this a few times so I know what I’m capable of and I understand that my plan can go to hell at any moment. I can charge and shoot and stay on target, and I’m pretty quick so the gap will come down fast. If I make it to within 10yds the shots will be fairly precise and CNS will be my target. With 18 rounds in a G17, I have aprox 4.5 seconds of ammo.

I have no illusions and I’m not a hero wannabe. It’s just a simple fact that you can’t get out of range quick enough so you would be relying on luck if you run. And a typical food court has nothing to stop bullets. If I felt my life was truly in danger, I would rather die charging and shooting than running and praying.

 

[armoredman]

Would you engage or get you and yours out of Dodge?

Looking at the photos of the food court, there was no real viable exit strategy if he was right next to that column. I think he assessed that in a flash and knew he had to act. As for me - as stated here, I have many more sunsets behind me than ahead of me, MAYBE another 15-20 years at best, and I have great life insurance - my wife and kid would live grand for at least 6 months. I have not faced the elephant ion this regard yet, but I have dived headfirst in stressful and dangerous situations in my job, so I like to believe I would engage. My biggest problem would I would 99 times out of 100 fail to take advantage of the concealment and bracing of that column, potentially cover if it's actual concrete and not painted board over steel. I will start using this as a drill at the range to improve my odds. Of course, chances are it won't happen, but it's never a zero chance.

 

[JohnKSa]

The rounded portion of the Food Court is about 95 feet in diameter according to Google Maps. The picture linked above is definitely from the Food Court based on a panorama pic posted in Google Maps.

Here's a panorama view taken from the center of the Food Court. You can use the mouse to look in any direction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6319742,-86.1195427,3a,75y,245.11h,67.63t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNhCxFHzsoknauJQD6jMgK7hhPfALDhgFjXSMcM!2e10!3e11!6shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipNhCxFHzsoknauJQD6jMgK7hhPfALDhgFjXSMcM=w203-h100-k-no-pi0-ya0.7561-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352

There are three round columns in the Food Court at varying distances from the restroom.

There are other columns (including some well outside of the Food Court but that have visibility to the restroom area) that could easily be 40 yards or more from the restrooms.

The opening to the restrooms is right on the edge of the Food Court, but the actual restrooms are quite a bit farther back from the opening. Was the shooter into the Food Court or was he standing back inside the opening a way?

Lots of ambiguity.

Until video is released, I don't see any way to accurately assess the length of the shot. Frankly, I'm just impressed that while under a lot of pressure, he hit a moving target who was shooting and moving and did so with 8 out of 10 shots from what was likely a compact pistol. I'll still be impressed if it turns out to be from only a few yards away.

I can shoot 10 shot 5" groups at 25 yards with my compact carry gun/ammo combo. That's taking my time, not moving around, no adrenaline, and with nothing on the line other than wanting to make a small group. How does that translate to what this kid did? You tell me...I have no idea.

 

[CDW4ME]

The indoor range where I shoot is 25 yards and I practice at that distance, as well as closer.
At 25 yards I can still (55 year old eyes) hit with fixed sights.
An example with Glock 17 - unsupported, free hand, 10 rounds, fixed sights.

I've got a Glock 34 and 35 both have a Holosun 507c x2 red dot and it is easier to hit at distance with the dot.
It took about 500 rounds for me to feel quick enough with the dot to carry it; 34 & 35 are the only MOS Glocks I currently own.
Carry a Glock 34? Yes, loose untucked shirt; its not any more difficult to conceal than a 17. Retired and can dress as I choose.
Same gun (Glock 34/35) is carried regardless of anticipated threat (everywhere); walking my dogs or going to Publix in "good area" or elsewhere (Walmart).

As applied to 40 yard shots, I can't practice beyond 25 but I'm confident I could make 40 yards with the RDS Glock 34 that I carry.
10 rounds? Got that covered with ammo left over in the mag and then I always carry a spare mag too. (duh)

Someone carrying a snub, revolver, Glock 42 (less than 10 rounds) may be able to make the hits but they are also gonna be making a reload.
Capacity is advantageous and the mall incident is a civilian example of why.

 

[Buzznrose]

Under pressure, in a crowded food court, while ushering his girlfriend to take cover, get 8/10 hits, and most reports Ive seen seem to be 15-20 yards away. Amazing response for a 22 YO male with no formal training I’ve heard.

And like JohnK said, if the actual distance was 7 feet, still amazing and impressive!

These mass shooters have me reviewing my own carry practice. Not wanting to be a hero by any stretch but wrong place wrong time with loved ones requires some response…

Here in South TX when it’s 100 degrees, I have been defaulting to my Ruger LCP Max. It’s so easy to carry…and the more I think about it, a great choice for a BUG, but certainly not something I’d choose in the Indy mall situation.

Definitely going to make more effort to carry something I’m capable with and stop being lazy. I don’t think I’d be able to get over knowing a loved one was killed by one of these glory-chasing demons because I was too lazy to carry a proper firearm.

God Bless that young man…I believe he will be haunted for his actions for a long time, but the folks who were there certainly owe him their gratitude in spades!

 

[Buzznrose]

Training for only one kind of scenario is dumb. Training for a variety scenarios, in appropriate ratios, is smart.

Agree, but always train with hard scenarios and avoid the “easy path”.

I attended an IDPA shoot last weekend, my first in several years. It was an eye opener to see how folks shoot so poorly…maybe lots of new shooters, maybe I’m too critical.

I get everyone wants a good score and be fast, but the sloppy shooting was nuts. And since targets were mostly close, I decided to take head shots on everything inside 5 yards, which was most targets. I focused and was slower, but I only had misses on the swinging targets.

I used to use these scenario based competitions for training and After a long hiatus, greatly enjoyed the return. Moving and shooting targets while having to avoid no-shoot targets was much better than just square range target work.

 

[Kleanbore]

...what would you do....

Requires speculation and can mean no more than speculation.

The answer is, it depends. We really don’t have any reliable information about what really happened.

Right.
Realistically, none of us can have any way of knowing what we could reasonably believe in a hypothetical situation. Is retreat in complete safely possible? Is shooting the most viable way to avoid becoming a victim? Where are all of the bystanders? How well can we assess what is behind the target?

I would not venture to say what I would do. I do not know.

 

[jmorris]

It’s just a simple fact that you can’t get out of range quick enough so you would be relying on luck if you run. And a typical food court has nothing to stop bullets. If I felt my life was truly in danger, I would rather die charging and shooting than running and praying.

I think there is a lot to every situation and one should always have awareness of what is around them to always keep as many options open as possible. If I go to a restaurant with family or friends, I am facing the door and if in a booth on the outside, for example. If I am driving down a road that has more than two lanes, you will not find me driving along beside someone, I am either in front of or behind other traffic going the same direction. This way if an object comes along in the road I am free to change lanes without running into someone. For millions of people thoughts like this never pop into their head but are constantly running through mine.

Food courts are often areas where there are a number of “fingers” that feed into the central location. I would imaging one or two steps to the side could be more beneficial (and faster) than a few dozen taken directly towards or away from the threat.

Lots and lots of variables for sure.

Edit: looks like that mall is laid out differently than the ones I have been to.

I wonder where the two were positioned?

 

[luzyfuerza]

Even if reports of the circumstances of this event change, we can still use what we're hearing to generate questions to ask ourselves regarding our strategies, tactics, and training. These questions can point out strengths and weaknesses in our thinking and preparation.

For example, these questions, related just to the use of cover/concealment, come to mind while reflecting on this incident:

1) Often, "situational awareness" focuses primarily on identification of potential threats. Are we also "situationally aware" of available cover/concealment, angles, escape routes, etc.?

2) If I and/or my loved ones are in a position of concealment or cover (even if this is just behind a relatively small item like a column or a planter or a countertop) would it make sense to leave that position to cross some amount of open space that is within the view of the murderer?

3) How would the nature of the cover/concealment affect my choice whether or not to engage the murderer?

4) How does the nature of the murderer's tools and my tools affect my choices regarding use of cover/concealment?

Some training questions:

1) Am I skilled at using my tools from unusual positions (e.g. fetal left, fetal right, supine, prone, rollover prone, inverted, etc.) from behind cover/concealment? Do I know how to safely and quickly shift between these positions?

2) Am I skilled at using my tools from the right side of a barricade? From the left? Supported? Unsupported?

3) Am I more skilled with a large, high-capacity gun than with a smaller, pocketable gun? If so, how big are the differences? Are these differences likely significant enough to affect the outcome of an event?


There are so many questions like this that we can ask ourselves if we think about it. The lessons learned can be extremely valuable, even if the circumstances known about this particular incident do change.

 

[Plan2Live]

While I am obviously thankful a shooter was stopped quickly, I worry this event will give too many concealed carriers a false sense of their ability. One of the more widely followed YouTube loudmouths already has a video up proclaiming this incident proves there is no need for training to obtain a carry permit. As a former concealed carry permit instructor I couldn't disagree more.

The instructor group I used to teach with ran a force on force session once, just for the instructors, using Airsoft pistols. In one of our drills, an instructor drew on "the bad guy" and fired while moving toward cover. Textbook perfect, he remembers seeing his front sight, remembers seeing the bad guy still holding a gun, remembers everything. Except for one thing, a civilian walked between the good guy and the bad guy and the good guy never saw the civilain. We had to replay the video to prove it to the good guy. And this was using non-lethal "guns" where we all knew we were going home afterwards.

 

[jmorris]

4) How does the nature of the murderer's tools and my tools affect my choices regarding use of cover/concealment?

If he had ran dry or had a malfunction and was futzing around like he didn’t know what he was doing, it would greatly increase the odds of me switching from defense to offense. That is still pretty far short of certainty but there are lots of other blanks to fill…

 

[bdickens]

While I am obviously thankful a shooter was stopped quickly, I worry this event will give too many concealed carriers a false sense of their ability. One of the more widely followed YouTube loudmouths already has a video up proclaiming this incident proves there is no need for training to obtain a carry permit. As a former concealed carry permit instructor I couldn't disagree more.

That's just stupid.You can't do what this guy did with no training.

You can train on your own.

 

[GEM]

The instructor group I used to teach with ran a force on force session once, just for the instructors, using Airsoft pistols. In one of our drills, an instructor drew on "the bad guy" and fired while moving toward cover. Textbook perfect, he remembers seeing his front sight, remembers seeing the bad guy still holding a gun, remembers everything. Except for one thing, a civilian walked between the good guy and the bad guy and the good guy never saw the civilain. We had to replay the video to prove it to the good guy. And this was using non-lethal "guns" where we all knew we were going home afterwards.

Well known psychological effect in selective attention: http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

 

[starnbar]

The kid did a good job period.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well known psychological effect in selective attention: http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

I loved that the first time I saw it and it was a real eye-opener.

It is still entertaining after all these years, because folks still don't believe what they "didn't see" until it is played back for them